"Our Struggle": What If Hitler Had Been a Communist?
- Thread starter The Red
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I’ve always been a bit sceptical about the role of Horst Wessel as a martyr in aiding the rise of the Nazis, I’m not sure how much it helped them other than preaching to the already concerted. Nonetheless, the KPD had martyrs aplenty IOTL; Rosa Luxemburg, Karl Liebknecht, Kurt Eisner, and several others. Thalmann himself got elevated to martyrdom in the DDR along with those already mentioned.
Yeah when it comes to martyrs, I agree, Wessel was not that inspiring compared to others.
In the film "The Big Red One" a German Sgt. of the Afrika Korps gets shot by another Sgt. for mocking Wessel and describing him as Hitler's pimp for young boys of the Hitler Youth!
we 2018 nepal now
EDIT: I really like the Three Arrows flag, I hope the future DAR flag is as visually striking.
EDIT: I really like the Three Arrows flag, I hope the future DAR flag is as visually striking.
I'm assuming that an Anglo-Italian Alliance will be in formation relatively soon. Unless I forgot something.
Hey, where'd the French go... oh.
I do wonder what an anticommunist Resistance ends up looking like. Might we see many figures who made their careers in the resistance OTL (e.g. Albert Camus) end up as assistants of Comintern occupiers TTL?
People like Jacques Duclos would certainly jump to the Comintern side, but I personally believe Camus would still end up within the French Resistance. He was opposed to authoritarian socialism and Stalinism, and had a falling out with Sartre because of it.
Just discovered this TL. And holy shit I have some things to say:
Overall, bye bye socialism and communism. Because a Jew-hating, genocidal communist will be the capitalist establishment's dream come true. At that point, no one will ever want to call themselves socialists or communists anymore nor would they like to see anyone call themselves one (especially Jews!). The whole movement will die in an instant and will only be supported by people delusional enough to take it seriously. And how people would want to fight oppression will be much, MUCH different.
This is going to be a very, very, dark world.
- Socialism/communism is already stigmatized at it is. Having Hitler as an actual communist will destroy the movement's reputation altogether. No one who is left-center or mainstream progressive would want to dare to even conjure up the idea. Saying socialist/communist or admitting to be one will get one's reputation hammered so quick. People like Bernie Sanders wouldn't even want the idea in their head when describing their social democratic policies.
- After the downfall of Hitler and the revelations of the atrocities he committed (Holocaust and whatnot), lots of labor unions (like IWW), Jewish socialists (like the leaders of the Frankfurt School of Critical Theory, Albert Einstein, the Labor Zionist movement), etc are going to seriously question everything they believe. Not to mention, people will seriously drop out of the socialist movement in droves. The realization that the man they hoped would lead the workers' revolution was a genocidal maniac is going to seriously traumatize them (although people like Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc already do enough of a job doing that). At that point, they're going to have to reshuffle their ideology and rethink about the issues of capitalism and whether an alternative should be even considered at this point.
- Numerous socialist thinkers like Fourier, Sorrel, and Marx are going to implicated in being responsible for the atrocities. Books will be written on why their ideas have caused more suffering than good. And even philosophers like Hegel will be severely discredited just for influencing these thinkers. Marx may be a little more forgiven since he's Jewish. And some Jews like Trotsky and Luxembourg may be spared from the wrath. But yeah many of these thinkers are going to be tossed into the same bin with race realists that influenced the OTL Nazis.
- The perpetrators of the American Red Scare will be jumping with glee. After Hitler is defeated, they'll have some ample propaganda to fight the anti-capitalist movement. As a result the protest movements of the 60s are going to suffer a greater challenge not only because of the association the propaganda machine will make, but also the fact that they're going to have to choose the kinds of ideologies they want to follow very carefully.
- With the downfall of the credibility of socialism/communism, people are going to have to look to anti-capitalist ideologies that won't be associated with the possibilities of potential mass murder. Anarchism might take off at a greater rate and with greater force.
- Third world struggles are going to have to create new ideologies out of scratch. The idea of a Jew-hating psychopath is going make them rethink calling themselves socialists.
- This may cause the US, Britain, and France to ally with the fascists. And boy will the fascists escape the massive reputation scrutiny they had in OTL. In fact, they might start to become a legitimate movement across the world since they won't have to be associated with the OTL atrocities that destroyed its credibility. I mean imagine mainstream politicians and figures openly admitting to fascism and not getting as shit on. Yeah, the world's going to have a lot of good luck dealing with those people.
- The right wing, capitalist establishment will be more powerful since people are going to be wary of any radical movement. And it might mean that the American civil rights movement may not be as far-reaching. LGBT and women's movements will also be hampered as well. Racism may also be more acceptable. Overall, the world won't be as tolerant as OTL.
Overall, bye bye socialism and communism. Because a Jew-hating, genocidal communist will be the capitalist establishment's dream come true. At that point, no one will ever want to call themselves socialists or communists anymore nor would they like to see anyone call themselves one (especially Jews!). The whole movement will die in an instant and will only be supported by people delusional enough to take it seriously. And how people would want to fight oppression will be much, MUCH different.
This is going to be a very, very, dark world.
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I may have missed something, but as far as can I tell, so far it's not clear whether Commie Hitler will go down the same path of hating Jews and trying to exterminate them. I can see him still being antisemitic and branding them as 'rootless cosmopolitans', but whether this leads to industrialised mass murder is another question.
That said, I do agree that any cause that reeks of communism/socialism will take a hit and that it will be easy for right-wing forces to tar even moderate socialists/social democrats with the Hitlerite/Stalinist brush, allowing the old establishment to become more entrenched. Especially if there's no nasty fascist regime to 'balance' things out by being seen as equally horrid.
That said, I do agree that any cause that reeks of communism/socialism will take a hit and that it will be easy for right-wing forces to tar even moderate socialists/social democrats with the Hitlerite/Stalinist brush, allowing the old establishment to become more entrenched. Especially if there's no nasty fascist regime to 'balance' things out by being seen as equally horrid.
Md139115
Banned
This is all assuming that Communism loses.
Keep in mind that we are talking “Anglo-American/Commitern War” that means, at minimum, Germany and USSR versus US and British Empire, and probably with the former having taken the entire continent of Europe under its control and installed reasonably loyal (and, I’m some cases, considerably more popular and potent) governments in the conquered nations.
There is a strong possibility here of Allied defeat. I’m not sure what this defeat could look like, but I would not be suprised to see a successful invasion of Britain, particularly given our author.
Keep in mind that we are talking “Anglo-American/Commitern War” that means, at minimum, Germany and USSR versus US and British Empire, and probably with the former having taken the entire continent of Europe under its control and installed reasonably loyal (and, I’m some cases, considerably more popular and potent) governments in the conquered nations.
There is a strong possibility here of Allied defeat. I’m not sure what this defeat could look like, but I would not be suprised to see a successful invasion of Britain, particularly given our author.
As I have said elsewhere, by creating a story with both a more succesful hitler and more succesful communism, the red has created the ultimate horsehoe story. Which appeals to everyone apart from centrist cucks who don't count.
Stalin hated Jews but didn’t really show it either. So Hitler may take that route in that he calls for an anti-bourgeoise program in the guise of a anti-Jeiwsh pogrom.
Not to mention fascism might have a better view since Italy would most likely be an ally against Germany. Honestly good luck to the people suffering oppression and injustice in this TL. Because at this point they may have no other ideological outlet since everything else reeks of dead bodies. And this time it’s going to be more than a hundred million dead (OTL the number is most likely inflated as two of the authors of the Black Book of Communism distanced themselves from the book since the main author tended to inflate the figures). Not to mention thinkers like Karl Marx are going to be even more severely discredited and this time his reputation and influence might be killed off for good. So bye bye his influence on the social sciences and the numerous intellectual thinkers like the postcolonial intellectuals, the critical theorists, cultural and media studies, economics, and whatnot. Also bye to other figures like Sorrel, Fourier, and Hegel who will also be guilty due to their influence. Though just like Nietzsche’s followers successfully redeemed his work post-WWII, maybe anti-authoritarian Marxist thinkers will try to do the same thing. Whether or not they’ll be successful isn’t too clear to me, though I guess the Frankfurt School due to their Jewish association can help clear his name. But at this point only libertarian socialist movements like anarchism are going to make it out alive.
If Israel’s going to exist in this TL (and most likely will), I wonder if the Labor Zionist Movement may even take off. I guess coating it with right-wing ideas and rhetoric may be the only reason for healthier aspects of socialism to survive. But overall, I definitely do see a much more right-wing world, and that any attempt at a liberation movement is going to be stigmatized to the point that people would prefer to avoid it like the plague. It’s going to take a lot of convincing for people to realize that not all liberation ideologies are going to lead to the atrocities of Hitler and Stalin.
Honestly if the US gets nukes they can turn the tide. The results, however, oh boy....
Considering how the probably most genocidal and monstrous fascist leader was moved to the communist camp, fascism will most certainly be seen in a better light.
There is also the fact that with communism being associated with genocides, massive wars and mass destruction it's possible that many groups which seek social progress and reform might turn towards fascism. It's not that far fetched considering the ideas that were described in the 1919 fascist manifesto. This would again, if such movements are successful, even further improve how fascism is seen.
Anti-imperialist movements will definitely take a far right wing turn. I envision Japan as siding with the Allies so a Cold War between the US and Japan is viable. Japan could be the perpetrator of the anti-imperialist ideology that will influence people in Africa, Latin America, and the Middle East. And maybe Central Asia and the Caucasus if possible.
Also, I just realized that Jews won’t be dealing with one anti-Semitic commie but two. It’s going to be a lot worse for them unless the Allies find ways to get them to safety. Maybe they force the Jewish labor movement to bow down to the capitalist establishment in exchange for giving home for these refugees, as this gives them an opportunity to hang the Sword of Damocles over them. And if they’re all going to go to Israel eventually, well, it won’t be be Palestinians suffering in the Nakba...
It’s going to be hell in this TL...
Oh, I agree that Hitler could cloak an anti-Jewish pogrom with anti-capitalist rhetoric. 'Rootless cosmopolitants' and all that. I mentioned that possibility in my post. We have to see how far things go or if that route is taken at all. It's an alternate Hitler who's made alternate choices and had a different wartime experience, but is still seeking total power, propagating a totalitarian ideology and will apparently be responsible for a world war, after all. I have no doubt that the DAR will be a vile regime regardless.
Likewise, fascism will unfortunately probably get a better rep and be seen as more 'respectable'. Same applies to right-wing authoritarianism in general.
I’ll be damned if he doesn’t carry it out. Otherwise it’s out of his character.
And definitely with fascism becoming a trend I can imagine the world becoming more authoritarian in general. Only something very big can disrupt that pattern at that point.