Yamaguchi doesn't go down with Hiryū and survives

[CV12Hornet]

If i'm mistaken about the LHD i will of course accept it, though there weren't tens of fuelled and armed planes and ammo exploding to damage it so badly as to be scrapped, so i kinda find it hard to understand what burned so intensely on it.. I still think it has something to do with light or flammable construction or whatever.

They were in the middle of a refit so there were a lot of construction-related flammables lying around.

Also: metal burns too if the fire gets hot enough.

Back at the japanese CVs, Kaga reconstruction took a year at peacetime pace, involving reboilering and rebuilding flight deck/hangar, though granted there wasn't any fire or bomb damage. A wartime reconstruction of similar scope woud of course pe expedited. Even if it takes more than a year, let's say 18 months to rebuild Akagi that still means she will be ready to fight at the Marianas battle. The smaller Hiryu would of course take less time to repair, let's say 9-12 months.

No, it took two years. Specifically, 25 months, October 1933 to November 1935, though she spent the last five months floating and doing trials.

Imperial lattops

Akagi, who went through a similar level of reconstruction, took even longer. 3 years, or 38 months, from October 1935 to December 1938. Though as with Kaga she spent a considerable amount of time, 3 and a half months, floating, doing trials, and some last-minute work based on those trials.

Imperial lattops

 

[Belisarius II]

Damaged ships might not be worth rebuilding for the US Navy, and its endless numbers of ships and resources. Japan was not in the same situation. Japan had no fleet carriers scheduled to commission in either 1942 or 1943, and only one (Taiho) by mid-1944. Even a one-year rebuild of a damaged Midway carrier was worth it for the simple fact that Japan was in a war and there were no fleet carriers, no other options for the Japanese, in the pipeline.

It's not worth it because it'll take as much effort to rebuild the ship as it is to build a new one. In all of this talk of a shortage of carriers the IJN completed the Shinano as a stores ship. Why not take the 2 Ise class Battleships and rebuild them as full deck carriers, rather than seaplane tenders? The real problem was even if the Japanese had more carries the problem was keeping up the air groups. If the Japanese had 2 more Taiho class Carriers in 1944, would they have trained air groups for them?

 

[Ming777]

IMO, Hiryuu might at best delay the US advances or inflict more losses.

It still will not prevent the inevitable swarm of Essex class carriers and other outputs of the US Naval war machine. Nor does Hiryuus survival solve the issue of ever deceasing experience base among IJN pilots.

 

[Glenn239]

It's not worth it because it'll take as much effort to rebuild the ship as it is to build a new one.

It would not take as long to repair a damaged ship than build a new one.

 

[mack8]

They were in the middle of a refit so there were a lot of construction-related flammables lying around.

Also: metal burns too if the fire gets hot enough.


No, it took two years. Specifically, 25 months, October 1933 to November 1935, though she spent the last five months floating and doing trials.

Imperial lattops

Akagi, who went through a similar level of reconstruction, took even longer. 3 years, or 38 months, from October 1935 to December 1938. Though as with Kaga she spent a considerable amount of time, 3 and a half months, floating, doing trials, and some last-minute work based on those trials.

Imperial lattops

We're reading the same TROM but seem to interpret it differently. It says there clearly that Kaga was actually under reconstruction for exactly one year (June 1934 to June 1935), which is the metric i'm looking at. That she was hanging around Sasebo from late 1933 it's another issue, probably waiting for the spot to be freed from another ship?

Akagi was an unusual case, her modernization was less extensive as did not include new boilers/machinery and her AA guns were not even changed to the Type 89. Must have to do with the hectic rectification work on most fleet units after the Tomozuru/4th Fleet incidents, maybe lack of manpower, maybe something else. So the time she spent in the shipyard is not representative imo.

 

[mack8]

It's not worth it because it'll take as much effort to rebuild the ship as it is to build a new one. In all of this talk of a shortage of carriers the IJN completed the Shinano as a stores ship. Why not take the 2 Ise class Battleships and rebuild them as full deck carriers, rather than seaplane tenders? The real problem was even if the Japanese had more carries the problem was keeping up the air groups. If the Japanese had 2 more Taiho class Carriers in 1944, would they have trained air groups for them?

There was the landbased 1st Air Fleet created in 1943 (led by none other than Takashige Egusa) just because of IJN weakness in carriers, so if they have 2 more Taihos the relevant number of crew/planes goes towards filling them first.

 

[njslim]

It would not take as long to repair a damaged ship than build a new one.

Problem Japanese have , if fires could be extinguished, would be to tow the hulk back to Japan. Possibly a fleet base (Kwajalein ?, Truk? ) for some repair work before being towed back to Japan. Question is would the power plant be operable, the fuel tanks and lines workable? If the power plant could be repaired then that is victory in itself Would require an escort form of destroyers in that the slow moving hulk becomes a target worthy of sinking This diverts scare resources for significant amount of time Then question is how to tow something that big. Japanese had no ocean going tugs in the area US had the minesweeper VIREO, now designated a tug. It had waited out the battle at an isolated atoll south of Midway VIREO had severe problems trying to tow the damaged YORKTOWN at speed of 3 knots The attempt to tow the HORNET after Battle of Santa Cruz by the heavy cruiser USS NORTHAMPTON , while being towed at 4 knots the tow lines kept parting , Also NORTHAMPTON had to cut the tow to maneuver during air attacks. Without power attempting to rig the tow lines is an impossible task . Then have case of hulk of USS OKLAHOMA after being salvaged from Pearl Harbor being towed to west coast for scraping after the war, 2 ocean going tugs were towing OKLAHOMA when it suddenly sank in a storm 500 miles from Hawaii almoat dragging the tugs down with it.

 

[kaijudirector]

Anyway, imo it's highly likely that if Yamaguchi survives (and not wounded too badly if it is infered he will be wounded in the attack), he will be made commander of the carrier force in July, effectively taking Ozawa's place. I am quite certain they kept Nagumo as part of the cover-up of the defeat, other IJN commanders have been dismissed after less disastruous battles.

Maybe Ozawa and Yamaguchi become the Halsey/Spruance of the IJN? Either they swap commands every other campaign or become a two-headed monster that forces the USN to have Halsey and Spruance both at sea to counter.

 

[CV12Hornet]

We're reading the same TROM but seem to interpret it differently. It says there clearly that Kaga was actually under reconstruction for exactly one year (June 1934 to June 1935), which is the metric i'm looking at. That she was hanging around Sasebo from late 1933 it's another issue, probably waiting for the spot to be freed from another ship?

She was specifically drydocked for a year, but modernization work of this nature doesn't just entail drydock work. I mentioned the five months pierside doing trials and putting on finishing touches, and I wouldn't be surprised if there was work going on in the pre-drydock period.

Akagi was an unusual case, her modernization was less extensive as did not include new boilers/machinery and her AA guns were not even changed to the Type 89. Must have to do with the hectic rectification work on most fleet units after the Tomozuru/4th Fleet incidents, maybe lack of manpower, maybe something else. So the time she spent in the shipyard is not representative imo.

Except Akagi's refit is more representative because guess what the Japanese are going to be dealing with with the war on? If you guessed "manpower shortages and lots of repair work", congrats, you get a prize.

 

[jlckansas]

What slips would be available for them to put the hulks into? Having to wait for one to be available just adds that much more time for the refit. It might mean you would have more time to come up with the materials but what happens to what was being built that might need those materials?

 

[mack8]

Imo it goes without saying that if somehow Akagi and Hiryu somehow make it back to Japan they will be given absolute top priority for repair. Shokaku was just leaving drydock at Kure after repairs in late June, so one of the damaged carriers might immediately follow, let's say Hiryu. Also there is the huge drydock at Sasebo built to service the Yamatos, if that's free the other carrier will go there, say the larger Akagi.

Anything else scheduled for refit/repair (apart from Mogami, can't think of a big combatant needing repair at this time) at those yards/drydocks that is not a carrier will be made to wait. And if materials are pilfered from say Shinano and Ibuki or the Ise conversions , that's a net gain because those first two contributed nothing to the war effort, and the Ise conversions was just a waste of shipyard time and materials. At least Akagi and Hiryu will be ready to do battle again in 1944 (in which they will likely perish, but that's another matter).

 

[Belisarius II]

It would not take as long to repair a damaged ship than build a new one.

I'm sorry it does. A ship with burned out hanger decks, and flight deck, with the Island gone, with a heat twisted hull needs to be about 75% rebuilt. Your assumptions is the engineering spaces are ok, but we don't even know that. The guts of the ship have to be ripped out just to get at the engineering spaces and start rebuilding the steam plant. The aviation fuel tanks, watermains, electrical systems, ammo storage, machine shops, elevators, catapults, communication systems. At best you're talking about a twisted hull with possibly working engines.

It would make more sense to take a heavy cruiser hull and complete it as a light carrier with maybe 40 aircraft. Or build the Unryū Class. A fully rebuilt Hiryu is just as unlikely as new build Unryu's because the shipyards were just overworked.

 

[Glenn239]

Problem Japanese have , if fires could be extinguished, would be to tow the hulk back to Japan. Possibly a fleet base (Kwajalein ?, Truk? ) for some repair work before being towed back to Japan. Question is would the power plant be operable, the fuel tanks and lines workable?

If the engine spaces were servicable, then the carrier returns to Japan under its own power, like Franklin. If not, if the engine spaces were burned out, it would be a total loss and scuttled, not towed. Either way, on the evening of the 4th, the IJN had to drive Spruance off, sink the Yorktown with destroyers, and bombard Midway to keep it neutralized on the 5th and 6th. If a few cruisers got sunk in the chase, then that was worth it for even a 50/50 chance of one IJN carrier returning to Japan for repairs.

 

[Glenn239]

Imo it goes without saying that if somehow Akagi and Hiryu somehow make it back to Japan they will be given absolute top priority for repair. Shokaku was just leaving drydock at Kure after repairs in late June, so one of the damaged carriers might immediately follow, let's say Hiryu. Also there is the huge drydock at Sasebo built to service the Yamatos, if that's free the other carrier will go there, say the larger Akagi.

I doubt they'd have to drydock the carriers to remove the thousand tons (or whatever) of destroyed hangers and superstructure- that presumably could be done pier side somewhere. In terms of the time to put a new hanger on after the damaged material was removed, I picture something fast and dirty, like a 1-deck hanger instead of the more elaborate 2-deck originals.

Anything else scheduled for refit/repair (apart from Mogami, can't think of a big combatant needing repair at this time) at those yards/drydocks that is not a carrier will be made to wait. And if materials are pilfered from say Shinano and Ibuki or the Ise conversions , that's a net gain because those first two contributed nothing to the war effort, and the Ise conversions was just a waste of shipyard time and materials. At least Akagi and Hiryu will be ready to do battle again in 1944 (in which they will likely perish, but that's another matter).

I think it would be as much about USN doctrine and perceptions as about the combat capability of the carriers themselves. Once USN intel had registered that Akagi and Hiryu, (let's say) had recommissioned and had air groups working up, they'd be credited as full fleet carriers in USN deliberations, meaning that in any offensive undertaken, the USN would, I would bet, assume both were fully combat capable as originally built.

 

[Coulsdon Eagle]

Problem Japanese have , if fires could be extinguished, would be to tow the hulk back to Japan. Possibly a fleet base (Kwajalein ?, Truk? ) for some repair work before being towed back to Japan. Question is would the power plant be operable, the fuel tanks and lines workable? If the power plant could be repaired then that is victory in itself Would require an escort form of destroyers in that the slow moving hulk becomes a target worthy of sinking This diverts scare resources for significant amount of time Then question is how to tow something that big. Japanese had no ocean going tugs in the area US had the minesweeper VIREO, now designated a tug. It had waited out the battle at an isolated atoll south of Midway VIREO had severe problems trying to tow the damaged YORKTOWN at speed of 3 knots The attempt to tow the HORNET after Battle of Santa Cruz by the heavy cruiser USS NORTHAMPTON , while being towed at 4 knots the tow lines kept parting , Also NORTHAMPTON had to cut the tow to maneuver during air attacks. Without power attempting to rig the tow lines is an impossible task . Then have case of hulk of USS OKLAHOMA after being salvaged from Pearl Harbor being towed to west coast for scraping after the war, 2 ocean going tugs were towing OKLAHOMA when it suddenly sank in a storm 500 miles from Hawaii almoat dragging the tugs down with it.

Hotel Yamato was around doing b*gger all else for rest of 1942 & 1943.

 

[RanulfC]

Hotel Yamato was around doing b*gger all else for rest of 1942 & 1943.

"Yamato is NOT a hotel!" She says while acting like, well, a hotel....

Randy

 

[Belisarius II]

I doubt they'd have to drydock the carriers to remove the thousand tons (or whatever) of destroyed hangers and superstructure- that presumably could be done pier side somewhere. In terms of the time to put a new hanger on after the damaged material was removed, I picture something fast and dirty, like a 1-deck hanger instead of the more elaborate 2-deck originals.

Yes, they do need a drydock. These carriers were destroyed from the hanger decks up. The hulls would be twisted from heat damage, and structural shock from a series of heavy explosions. Plates would be sprung, and there must have been at least minor flooding, which would have to brought under control to stop the ships from sinking. In comparison the Franklin's hull, and superstructure was intact. What almost caused them to abandon the engine rooms was the Kamikaze hit the ventilation system, so it was sucking hot smoke into the machine spaces. The temperatures almost reached the limits of human endurance. On future U.S. carriers the ventilation downdraft system was decentralized so one hit couldn't do that again.

I think it would be as much about USN doctrine and perceptions as about the combat capability of the carriers themselves. Once USN intel had registered that Akagi and Hiryu, (let's say) had recommissioned and had air groups working up, they'd be credited as full fleet carriers in USN deliberations, meaning that in any offensive undertaken, the USN would, I would bet, assume both were fully combat capable as originally built.

Even if Akagi & Hiryu would be available for the Battle of the Marianas I doubt they would have full air groups for them. They'd need another 150 aircraft manned by carrier qualified aviators. At least those pilots could land on carriers, they were just too green to enter heavy combat with swarms of F6F-3 Hellcats. The IJNAF was short on dive & torpedo bombers as well as fighter aircraft. Philippine Sea was so bad not even the D4Y Judy dive bomber, which was faster than a Zero was able to survive.

 

[Sekhmet_D]

I'm sorry it does. A ship with burned out hanger decks, and flight deck, with the Island gone, with a heat twisted hull needs to be about 75% rebuilt. Your assumptions is the engineering spaces are ok, but we don't even know that. The guts of the ship have to be ripped out just to get at the engineering spaces and start rebuilding the steam plant. The aviation fuel tanks, watermains, electrical systems, ammo storage, machine shops, elevators, catapults, communication systems. At best you're talking about a twisted hull with possibly working engines.

It would make more sense to take a heavy cruiser hull and complete it as a light carrier with maybe 40 aircraft. Or build the Unryū Class. A fully rebuilt Hiryu is just as unlikely as new build Unryu's because the shipyards were just overworked.

Indeed.

I think people need to bear in mind that there is no actual, OTL precedent for the Japanese repairing and returning to service any vessel that was as badly hit as the Midway strike force carriers.

Whenever any of their ships was gutted that severely, 'scuttle with torpedoes' seems to have been standard operating procedure.

 

[Spherical_light]

No, it took two years. Specifically, 25 months, October 1933 to November 1935, though she spent the last five months floating and doing trials.
Imperial lattops

Akagi, who went through a similar level of reconstruction, took even longer. 3 years, or 38 months, from October 1935 to December 1938. Though as with Kaga she spent a considerable amount of time, 3 and a half months, floating, doing trials, and some last-minute work based on those trials.
Imperial lattops

So, I believe you forgot the F here Hornet...

 

[Glenn239]

Yes, they do need a drydock. These carriers were destroyed from the hanger decks up.

Hiryu's hanger looks to have been repairable, but the others probably not. The first step to replacing a destroyed hanger would be to cut off and remove the debris, which should be able to be done pierside. At some point after that they'd need to go into drydock.

The hulls would be twisted from heat damage, and structural shock from a series of heavy explosions. Plates would be sprung, and there must have been at least minor flooding, which would have to brought under control to stop the ships from sinking. In comparison the Franklin's hull, and superstructure was intact.

We have no idea what state the hulls or engine spaces of the carriers would be in, other than the likelihood of restoration to service being Hiryu, then Akagi, then Kaga, then Soryu.

What almost caused them to abandon the engine rooms was the Kamikaze hit the ventilation system, so it was sucking hot smoke into the machine spaces. The temperatures almost reached the limits of human endurance. On future U.S. carriers the ventilation downdraft system was decentralized so one hit couldn't do that again.

Franklin was not hit by a kamikaze.

Even if Akagi & Hiryu would be available for the Battle of the Marianas I doubt they would have full air groups for them. They'd need another 150 aircraft manned by carrier qualified aviators. At least those pilots could land on carriers, they were just too green to enter heavy combat with swarms of F6F-3 Hellcats. The IJNAF was short on dive & torpedo bombers as well as fighter aircraft. Philippine Sea was so bad not even the D4Y Judy dive bomber, which was faster than a Zero was able to survive.

I don't disgree, but in the late war period the primary impediment to the USN's speedy advance the USN's own faulty doctrinal assumptions, and political squabbling in Washington, not the Japanese. As such, the impact of Midway survivors is not so much in combat as in US planning.