I actually agree with the congressman in this story. unless the US is under direct occupation there is no way this flies with the public, so unless you are preparing another war with UK short time after the civil war ends this simply isn’t believable.
Wrapped in Flames: The Great American War and Beyond
- Thread starter EnglishCanuck
- Start date
Well look at it from Lincoln's perspective, is 20,000 miles of mostly (to this day) empty wilderness worth fighting over versus destroying the Confederacy and keeping the Union whole? I'd argue that yes, that's a deal. Maine (and many in the public) will feel like it's the ultimate betrayal of American spirit, but in the full analysis of the current war, it's the best of a bad situation. Whether the next few administrations feel the same... well... depends on what happens.
Thats a distinctly un-American way of looking at it. I don't mean to insult with that statement by the way, just wanting to point out that's not American logic, especially in that time period. You are also forgetting Maine volunteers. What do you think that is going to do to New England regiments fighting in the war, especially those from Maine?
Respectfully, I can not see Lincoln pushing this if the Union was showing signs of holding there own, even if they had some losses. It just doesn't fit the American persona.
Giving up Alsace-Lorraine was distinctly un-French, but Gambetta still had to do it.
Giving up half of Russia's empire to the Kaiser was a distinctly unBolshevik policy, but Lenin did that.
Giving up Manchuria to Japan was a betrayal of Chinese Nationalism, but the KMT had to do that.
The only distinctly American perspective you're articulating is exceptionalism, the idea that there's anything at all distinctly American about being upset that you have to give up territory when many of your people have fought bravely for it.
No insult taken, however, you also nail a good point that the people of Maine will be distinctly unhappy overall. That being said, since mid 1862 much of Maine has already been occupied by the British, so the relief of seeing the British gone will also be a big relief for them overall. The loss of Aroostook (and to be determined territory up to Machias Bay) is, in comparison, a bit more palatable than uncertain occupation. Not to say they won't be pretty mad after the fact.
Well, nations can have personas, but in the cold hard truth of war and economics, some things are inevitable. In this case, there is a much larger economic-strategic picture that it is also worth keeping in mind. Since the British entry into the war in February of 1862 the United States has had to divert over 150,000 men (or roughly 25% of the men mobilized to fight come early 1862) who would otherwise be fighting the Confederacy to invade Canada or hold off British attacks in the coasts or in Maine. The invasions of Canada East have been bloody fiascos which were all repulsed, while the British invasion of 1863 was, eventually, stopped at Saratoga it has sealed up the only effective invasion route to deal a defeat to the British. In Canada West the invasion was successful in pushing up to the Bay of Quinte before stalling at the Battle of Mount Pelion, but then a lack of resources to continue the invasion meant the US had to fall back on Toronto, where they have been staring daggers at the British 3rd Corps, but to do much more would require more resources which the armies fighting the Confederacy on the Mississippi desperately need.
The strategic initiative in the West in early 1862 shifted to the Confederacy which, while having mixed results, ended in a semi-successful invasion of Kentucky and eventually forced the Union to abandon Nashville. While Grant was able to then pivot and capture Memphis, the offensives stalled, and he then had to move again because of Confederate naval superiority on the Mississippi River. In doing so he had to scorch the earth, then ended up turned back at Corinth, but holding western Kentucky for the Union. Now though, a new Confederate offensive will be coming in 1864, and the soldiers currently occupying Canada would be very useful to stop that.
In the Eastern theater, the war nearly ended in the summer of 1863 as the joint Anglo-Confederate offensive against Washington placed the capital and Baltimore under threat, and it was only by shifting forces from out West - as none could be moved away from Maine or the ongoing fight against the British invasion of upper New York - that Lee's siege was broken and the capital/Army of the Potomac saved. Now Lee has knocked them back on their heels again, and reinforcements are desperately needed once more. The avenue to turn to is either more conscription (something that proved unpopular already) or moving the forces which would otherwise be fighting the British.
That doesn't begin to get into the economic outlook however. Despite Farragut's victory at Sandy Hook, the blockade still strangles the American coasts and prevents them from trading with the outside world or using the coasts as a trade network, thus putting more pressure on American railroads which are already overtaxed. This has, as I've outlined in regular chapters, caused inflation (in Chapter 75, 300 greenbacks is worth 100 dollars gold), contractions in the consumer markets, and farms to fail forcing many out of their homes and into the frontier. It's stretching the economy of the United States to the breaking point so while many want to continue the war, the Peace Faction in the Democratic Party is already more popular simply because so many are being driven to economic privation. There are those who want peace at any cost TTL.
All these factors combined are weighing heavily on Lincoln's mind, which means he has to start making tough decisions in 1864. He could, in theory, repudiate the treaty and decide to fight to the bitter end, but doing so may well cost him the election in November, and there's no guarantee that fighting on at the moment would improve the military situation. Worse, despite all this he must still defeat the Confederacy at the same time.
In light of all the above, I still believe that Lincoln is getting a bargain. Though when I post the text of the Treaty of Rotterdam I'll still leave you to be the judge!
I have to admit, I'm pretty sad that the Anglo-American war will be coming to an end soon. Following the exploits of the Army of the Hudson has been my favorite part of this TL.
Of course, the entire story is great, but that has been my favorite part so far and it's coming to an end...
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And there was a military force in place FORCING them to do that in your examples which was not the case here. There was still plenty of possibility to fight on and in no way does the USA of this TL or OTL ever resemble any of those. You have to go back to war of 1812 to make that case.
I wouldn’t say his point is an example of American exceptionalism, what it is, is his opinion. And to your point in all 3 of your points, those nations were forced to yield or face far steeper consequences. France had lost it’s army, Paris was under siege or in danger of a siege, their national leader had been captured. The Tsar had been deposed in Russia’s case, the nation was collapsing into Civil War and the Russian Army was shattered. And China was locked in a massive civil war when bullied by a Great Power who had proven dominate. I do believe that America would sign the treaty, but I think it would cost Lincoln the election and it would give rise to a lot of internal anger.
One thing to note however, while only the senate matters for ratifying treaties, any treaty that touches on a house competency (that's customs pretty much, since its a tax power) then they also needs to approve a treaty. I can't recall the exact terms, but if they touched upon customs the house also would need to ratify - at least by implication, by implementing the customs changes.
Sorry for the whiplash
Ed, I'm not entirely sure, but given that the indemnity needs to be paid for, I think the house needs to vote to for an appropriations bill to pay for that.
Think that the only way to find out for sure is to check the 1812 treaty, for its terms and or the Alaska and lousiana purchases.
The Senate does indeed has sole power to approve the treaty, and while the House has indeed a say in the money side of the treaty, it's my understanding, based on what happened for the Alaska Purchase, that the appropriation bill for the treaty is a separate vote from the vote on the treaty itself. So, while the Senate may have ratified the treaty, the Congress is still up for another vote on the appropriations for whatever financial terms they signed on.
From : https://www.archives.gov/publications/prologue/1994/winter/alaska-check
That excerpt matches what I remember reading in a book on the history of Russian Siberia.
I hope that clarify things a bit.
I do believe it does! That does allow me to move the Congressional debate forward, with some of the same characters so they can be properly introduced and used in the politics of the later 1860s. I'd had a good time reading about many of them so I'm glad some of the debates can be included and expanded upon in the post-war world.
Many thanks for the memory there!
Small detail though, Gambetta did not. He had resigned in early February of 1871 before elections and before a preliminary treaty, negotiated and forged with Bismarck by Foreign Minister Jules Favre and Chief Executive Adolphe Thiers, was signed later that month.
The battle cry of Copperheads, rather than yielding loyal territory to the British, why not just let the South go it’s own way and focus on defending the loyal states
I really hope the CSA survives , its always fun to see and a humbled US would be vert interesting
Is there anything better than political hypocrisy?
But more seriously, this does fall into the category of the "hard choices" Lincoln has had to make here and, had Britain intervened over the Trent affair historically, he would have had a lot of them. From the start the whole British plan of not being caught off guard meant they were planning to hit first which would inevitably result in American blood shed, which would result in outrage by the American people who would view that as Britain attacking them in a moment of weakness which makes the decisions so much harder. Backing down right away is out of the question, but the longer you fight the more hard decisions there are to make.
One of the deep ironies here is that out of all participants, only the Confederacy wanted war between the United States and Britain.
Chapter 92: The Summer Sun of York
Chapter 92: The Summer Sun of York
“The weary sun hath made a golden set, and by the bright track of his fiery car, gives signal of a goodly day to-morrow.” - Richard III, Act III
“As the armistice began to worry its way to a close with the Union in June of 1864, the British forces on the ground in Canada had come to an effective understanding. Monck wished that there be no more unnecessary loss of life in North America, especially with the combination of all the North American colonies into a single entity so close at hand. Below him his military commanders, both Williams and Dundas, saw that any further combat, unless absolutely necessary, would do little to materially change the facts on the ground in their respectives theaters of war. As such, they had all agreed that they would wait precisely one week after the expiry of the armistice before resuming operations, giving the United States the necessary breathing room to reach a reasonable agreement.
This was not supported by a large swathe of the Canadian populace who incorrectly believed that the Americans were merely stalling to launch another invasion. While this was far from the truth, it was reported in the presses at the time from most Canadian newspapers.
Most notably, many men of the Canadian militia did not support honoring the armistice a single day longer than they had to. In particular, the men of the York Brigade…” – Blood and Daring: The War of 1862 and how Canada forged a Nation, Raymond Green, University of Toronto Press, 2002
“After what I humbly note history has called “Denison’s Ride[1]” the Third Corps of the Army of Canada once again settled down in the trenches beyond Toronto…
…chiefly siegework is dull. With the resources eaten up by the campaigning in the east, little enough could be spared for attention beyond the vitales necessary to keep the army in shape. Shell, shot, and all the other portions of which we might have made a decisive engagement in 1863 were sent to the Army of Canada. In this I cannot fault the military or political logic, but it was painful to the men of York County who had been so long away from home.
My own role in the siege, beyond the ride, was chiefly that of advisor to General Williams on local matters and scouting. My troop was largely active around the enemy flank or in some patrol along the far edge of the line. The enemy himself seemed content with holding his own. The occasional bombardment or skirmish between pickets being the chief amusement of our forces…
…one note from the siege was the arrival of a curious Indian man in 1863. Corporal Peter Martin, or Burning Sky as I believe his people called him[2] had returned to Canada after studies abroad in Oxford in 1862. Having returned just in time to see the war break out he enlisted with the men of the Six Nations and served as a scout alongside those units which so ably assisted our fighting from Limestone Ridge to Mount Pelion. I can say that, upon observing him in action I am quite pleased he was on our side!
Corporal Martin became known to the officers as a crack shot. He was capable of dropping a man at remarkable distances. The rumor of his marksmanship spread through the ranks and I extended an invitation to him in order to see if he was indeed quite as remarkable as the rumors said. Upon appearing in our ranks he was well spoken, courteous and quite deferential to authority as any good soldier ought to be. When he asked why he had been invited, I informed him that the men wished to know if he shot as well as he said. Asking what we wanted to hunt, I invited him to the parapet near the York Brigades lines to shoot.
By this point we had all become used to a particularly irritating Yankee sharpshooter who wore a quite garish feathered hat as a calling card. He would periodically stick his head over the earthworks and call out a greeting before blasting away for a day and killing or wounding any unlucky man who tried to challenge him or do their sentry duty. We asked if he could politely rid us of the problem. Cheerfully, he obliged us.
I was patient enough to stay crouched with him alongside another officer from the Queen's Own Rifles. We watched and waited, and when one of our own men made the mistake of sticking his head too far above the parapet, the moment came. Quick as a lightning strike Martin fired and we all heard the scream float across the lines. Needless to say, the Yankee never took a shot at any of our men again![3]...
Oronhyatekha in later life
Though I was never party to any discussions, it became apparent that many Canadian officers wished to strike the city. We were all assured that peace was around the corner, so why waste time planning an attack which would never go off? None of the Canadian officers trusted any American promises as such. Though there was no conspiracy, there was certainly a desire to do something when the Yankees broke the armistice as well all thought they must…” Soldiering In Canada, Recollections and Experiences of Brigadier General George T. Denison III, Toronto Press 1900
“The events leading to the Battle of Davenport Ridge are somewhat controversial to this day. While Williams would, after the fact, claim a hand in it, it seems from records at the time he was almost completely unaware of its planning and undertaking…
The marching through Canada, and then the rigors of the siege had forced Williams, ever short of officers, to allow the Canadians to come into their own. Brigades of militia were commanded by their own men, with only British advisors. This allowed for a number of brigades to be commanded by Canadian officers. The independent brigade of former staff officer Alfred Booker was one such formation, while through special favor Williams had placed the York Brigade under the command of George Denison II, the Torontonian colonel had family (including his elder brother) in the unit and many joked that the whole brigade was a family affair. That said, it provided the cover for the one, probably only, Canadian led action of the war…
Most Canadian officers did not believe Yankee politicians, and it was evidently not hard to convince the York Brigade officers and surrounding militia soldiers that some show of force should be made to “make the Yankees pay” for the occupation of their country. It may have been Denison himself who broached the subject, but among his immediate subordinates it may have been Col. William Durie of the 2nd Battalion who initiated the discussions. Nevertheless, Lt. Cols Frederic Cumberland of the 10th and Richard Denison[4] of the 12th were also attracted to the proposal. They also managed to get the chief commanders of Booker’s independent brigade on board with their colonel hungry for glory.
It seems that they agreed that should no word of an armistice come on the 1st of July, they would organize an attack along the American lines come July 2nd with or without their superiors consent…
Knowing the area they managed to find a seam in the American lines along the Davenport Ridge close to where the Yankee lines met the tributary of the Don River. While normally it might be a more formidable obstacle, nearly a year of constant inaction had made the soldiers manning this section of the line lethargic, and inspections by Canadian militia found the defences there not quite as strong as they may have otherwise been. The men manning the line were, while alert, not expecting a major attack and more often than not would fraternize with the Canadians (or Canucks as they often called them) across the no man’s land.
It was most likely the reliance on Canadians on his staff which allowed Williams to end up accidentally acquiescing to the movements which led to the attack itself. Having only received a single brigade of newly raised regulars from Britain, Williams did not intend to scatter them too thin and instead husbanded them as his reserve. This meant his brigades were made of almost wholly Canadian troops. As such, when one of his officers (long believed to be friend of George Denison II, John Stoughton Dennis who served on Williams staff) shuffled Booker’s brigade into the line, no comment was made…
Across from the Canadians on the fateful July morning was the 2nd Brigade of the 1st Division XX Corps under Thomas W. Sweeney[5]. The one armed Irish officer was a veteran of many campaigns before the outbreak of the war, serving in Mexico, where he had his right arm amputated, and against various Native tribes in the interim. When the war had broken out with Britain he had been leading a brigade and participated in every action between Lime Ridge and Mount Pelion where he was further wounded. A Fenian sympathizer, he had been eager to take the fight to the British and so begged to stay on in spite of his injuries. When the division commander John McArthur had been invalidated out, Sweeney had been promoted to take his place. However, despite promoting Col. Joseph Woods to his old command, he maintained an affection for his old brigade and only happened to be there that fateful morning…
When no news of peace arrived on the 1st of July, the Canadians made the decision to go into action the next day. The men of the 2nd Battalion from picked companies waded as silently as they could to the Yankee lines to pre-selected positions. The 5th Company under Captain William Murray was designated the ‘grenadier company’ who would storm the position at a prearranged signal.
At dawn on July 2nd, the attack went off. Sentries were dispatched with the bayonet, and all at once the men of the 5th Company were among the advance companies of the 50th Illinois who had the singularly bad luck to be in those positions that morning. The initial chaos was fierce as Canadians dashed about with ‘rebel yells’ and caused havoc in the line. Once a breach had been made, two more companies advanced through the gulley and got in among the Union men.
Seeing red shirts waving from the parapet, Denison gave the order for the whole York Brigade to attack, and the men surged over their dugouts and into the lines. It was quite possible that this could have been the end of it, but the presence of Sweeney himself allowed the panicked lines to be sorted into some sense of order.
Bringing his old brigade to order, he managed to get men fighting for their trenches, and was rousing the rest of the brigade housed at Yorkville, or what is today Battleground[6]. By the time they were sorted out, Booker’s men were also attacking, making the whole attack along his section of the line general. Unsuspecting, the regiments to Sweeney’s left fell back in disorder as two Canadian brigades vented pent up fury on the Yankee occupiers…
The ferocity of the Canadian attack would surprise the Union forces in Toronto
…learning of the attack Williams at first attempted to learn what was happening. His own officers seemed to think some sort of American attack was underway (certainly no Canadian officer was going to contradict them) and so Williams, reluctantly, ordered a general attack by 9am from the whole army…
…Prentiss was stunned to learn that a stubborn rearguard action was being fought at Yorkville, only a bare mile distant from his own headquarters in the Stanley Barracks. His forces were not quite ready to contest the whole city, and he soon learned the British attack was general. Asking his aides how long they could contest, he was informed it would depend on if the rail lines were held. Grimly he was soon told that the Anglo-Canadian forces were the ones advancing.
By noon he sadly realized his position was untenable and ordered that XX Corps should prepare to withdraw…
Come dawn on July 3rd, not a single Yankee soldier was in Toronto who was not a prisoner and Williams had, to his own surprise, complete control of the city. Unable to carry all his stores, Prentiss had burned much along the waterfront, and only a concentrated effort by the Canadian troops had stopped the fires from spreading. However, it had masked much of his corps retreat, and he would move himself to Hamilton, only to learn that peace had in fact broken out the day before he arrived. The people of Toronto would take great pride in believing they had liberated themselves before the Yankees officially acknowledged peace.
The liberation was greeted with jubilation, and the population turned out in droves to welcome the York Brigade home. Such was the matter of celebrations that most would not even realize the war was over until the 4th of July…
However, it was soon known to all that peace was at last at hand in Canada. The fine details would be made known soon, but as far as the Canadians were concerned, through blood and daring, the war had been won.” – Blood and Daring: The War of 1862 and how Canada forged a Nation, Raymond Green, University of Toronto Press, 2002
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1] As detailed in Chapter 83
2] Or more properly Oronhyatekha of the Six Nations Mohawk. A very fascinating individual who, despite perhaps some embellishment in his own story, really did achieve some remarkable things!
3] In real life he won nine marksmanship prizes for the Queen’s Own Rifles as part of a shooting team in 1871. Discovering his story made me think that with war to hone his skills he might earn the mention of someone like Denison in his memoirs during an extended siege like the one around Toronto from 1863-64.
4] Yup, he is also of the Denison clan. The elder brother in fact, but it seems he let George II really put a public spin on things, though he was no less involved in the military aspect, commanding an infantry and artillery company at one point or another.
5] A man to watch as they say.
6] A suburb of modern Toronto near the modern day Royal Ontario Museum. While today it holds the same name, when the suburb is eventually incorporated into Toronto TTL some sentimental veterans or sons of veterans decide that “Yorkville” in “York County” in the former City of York seems a bit much and successfully petition to have it called Battle Ground, abbreviated to one word over time.
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Oh poor Lincoln, this is going to hurt him even more
