My understanding is that it did matter, and that in practice targets with a larger RCS were easier for the older search radars (and their operators) to derive enough information from the radar returns to generate tracks that the air defense system could then deal with.
Quite true. The earliest post war radars had such difficulty, even having trouble tracking supersonic aircrafts. Huges Airwest Flight 706 was quite an example of such problems.
But by the time the SR-71S entered service radars had also advance to the point where they eliminate the possible benifits offered by the reduction in RCS.
I wonder did Western radars had trouble tracking the U-2s , that they doubted the capability of the Soviets to do so?
 
I wonder did Western radars had trouble tracking the U-2s , that they doubted the capability of the Soviets to do so?
Yes, although for the very specific reason that at the time the U-2 was being designed they knew that the Soviets were using American radars (provided during the war) that could not track aircraft at very high altitudes. However, they didn't appreciate that the Soviets had upgraded those radars and they actually could track U-2s. They did learn this very quickly once they started overflights, but because they didn't have satellites yet they felt that they didn't really have any choice but to continue and experimented with various efforts to make life more difficult for the Soviets.
 
Yes, although for the very specific reason that at the time the U-2 was being designed they knew that the Soviets were using American radars (provided during the war) that could not track aircraft at very high altitudes. However, they didn't appreciate that the Soviets had upgraded those radars and they actually could track U-2s. They did learn this very quickly once they started overflights, but because they didn't have satellites yet they felt that they didn't really have any choice but to continue and experimented with various efforts to make life more difficult for the Soviets.
It was also somewhat of a moot point. The Soviets could track the aircraft, but there wasn't anything they could do about it. Their interceptors couldn't reach it and neither could their SAM systems. It wasn't until the USSR deployed the SA-2 that they could actually threaten the U-2
 
It was also somewhat of a moot point. The Soviets could track the aircraft, but there wasn't anything they could do about it. Their interceptors couldn't reach it and neither could their SAM systems. It wasn't until the USSR deployed the SA-2 that they could actually threaten the U-2
It may be so. But if Soviets even after tracking the U-2s couldn't do anything why bother with reducing the RCS and spending tons of money for no gain?
 
It was also somewhat of a moot point. The Soviets could track the aircraft, but there wasn't anything they could do about it. Their interceptors couldn't reach it and neither could their SAM systems. It wasn't until the USSR deployed the SA-2 that they could actually threaten the U-2
There was, nevertheless, an operational issue, in that the United States would have preferred the Soviets to be unaware of overflights. This way the United States could get better-quality intelligence (since the Soviets would not know to take precautions to interfere with U-2 observations) and it could use the intelligence it did gain more effectively (since the Soviets wouldn't know that the United States knew certain things about them). Additionally, it was useful in a diplomatic sense, because if the Soviets couldn't even detect the U-2 there would be no way for them to call out the United States for overflights. Finally, from a technical level it was possible that the Soviets could use their ability to detect the U-2 to intercept it sooner than the CIA and Air Force would have liked (as indeed happened).
 

Riain

Banned
Less than this, you would agree?
View attachment 587355
and certainly Vulcan has lower RCS than this, yes?
maxresdefault.jpg

No idea, all I know is that the Vulcan cold be detected at maximum range of the radar in Darwin. The same radar would be tracking all sorts of aircraft from commercial jet airliners, to turboprops like the Hercules all the way down to fighters, so I'd suggest max range means exactly that and turboprop aircraft and other non-Vulcan shaped aircraft were being picked up at similar ranges.
 

Riain

Banned
The B52s in Vietnam are an interesting case as they flew specifically into the engagement envelopes of these SAMs, they used jamming so powerful and specific that if they lost formation the the jamming lost effectiveness and the SAMs could get kills.

I've read that while Israel's fighters are well known to be awesome the IDF also has a very effective IADS and Hawk SAMs managed to get like 10 kills in 1973. I'm aware that Egypt used Tu16s, firing anti-radar AS5s at Israel, does anyone know anything about these Tu16 and SAM actions?
 
No idea, all I know is that the Vulcan cold be detected at maximum range of the radar in Darwin. The same radar would be tracking all sorts of aircraft from commercial jet airliners, to turboprops like the Hercules all the way down to fighters, so I'd suggest max range means exactly that and turboprop aircraft and other non-Vulcan shaped aircraft were being picked up at similar ranges.

That sounds reasonable to me, but in an actual war with multiple air craft both friendly and hostile being detected by radar systems, that were being affected by chaff, ECM, maybe nuclear detonations etc.. all things being equal I would rather be in the lower RCS aircraft if I was an occupant of an aircraft that was trying to penetrate NORAD's air defenses circa 1960..
 
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The B52s in Vietnam are an interesting case as they flew specifically into the engagement envelopes of these SAMs, they used jamming so powerful and specific that if they lost formation the the jamming lost effectiveness and the SAMs could get kills.

I've read that while Israel's fighters are well known to be awesome the IDF also has a very effective IADS and Hawk SAMs managed to get like 10 kills in 1973. I'm aware that Egypt used Tu16s, firing anti-radar AS5s at Israel, does anyone know anything about these Tu16 and SAM actions?
I seem to recall the B52's also used jamming against the voice radios that the North Vietnamese GCI system used to control their fighters (and the B52's even managed to shoot down a few Migs with their tail guns.) Accounts I have read of the 1960's NORAD exercises also mention jamming of voice radios but apparently the high power ground to air data link systems NORAD had begun to use to control newer interceptors were considered to be immune from jamming, but they were not universally available.
 

Riain

Banned
A word on RCS and radar detection range, off the top of my head the APS 20 in 50s-60s AEW aircraft had a low level detection range of 65mn against fighters, 85nm against bombers and ~200nm against surface ships.

Even if the Vulcan had the RCS of a fighter, which it didn't because it could be detected at maximum range by radar, there's not a hell of a lot tactical advantage in it.
 
The RAF first flew a Canberra bomber modified with Radar Absorbing Materials in the early 1960s. They never went very far with this research, other than to prove that it worked and it worked well. They apparently handed their results over the USAF. The USAF made use those findings in the design of various "stealth" aircraft.
 
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