Sports hooliganism was actually a small thing in the late 1800s and it was stomped on pretty quick
WI: Sports Hooliganism In The US?
- Thread starter Calcaterra
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Modern Imperialism
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My that definition the US should have a lot more hooligans but Britain is more of a welfare state. Being poor in America sucks a lot more then Britain on average. Would this be more related to welfare system instead of straight up poverty or unemployment and lesser extent public transportation too. If your poor in the US especially in the past they did not give out unemployment welfare like the UK. Most poor people here often work more just to make it by. Americans have to pay for more stuff on a average. You need money to do anything here and most of the time that involves doing multiple shitty jobs or selling weed on the side. That does not leave a lot of free time. Most people like that just want to drink or smoke when they get home after doing all that. They are too tired to go out and do shit like that. Also if you don’t work that means your going to have a hard time traveling in most places because a car is vital in most places in US. Unemployment is often high in Europe especially among young people because welfare system is so generous. In most places if your that poor you have to work two jobs and night shifts. You don’t have time just to do stupid shit like that. You have rent, bills, gas, car, and food to pay for. This honestly might be one reason hooligans are more common in Europe. They have nothing to do when unemployed and many won’t take incredibly shitty jobs when they can get a nice unemployment check and chill in a cafe or pub.
I've lived in the greater Philadelphia area for nearly 40 years, so I've seen it all from the depths to the heights--and I don't agree that Philadelphia is as bad as you say it is. Perhaps your sample is somewhat skewed. Further, how do you know the fans of visiting teams weren't the aggressors? Steelers fans are among the most obnoxious fans in all of sports; they're exceeded perhaps by the smug entitlement of Yankees fans (it takes zero effort to root for the Yankees: rather like rooting for Microsoft) or Patriots fans. And things are far different from the days of the 700 level at the Vet and the courtroom on site.
I do suppose my results may not match up with the sum, and I apologize if that is so. I just happen to have found that much of the Philly fans I have spoken with have only really proven the reputation that precedes them. The Steeler fans in question could have been the aggressors, but as one was of a more advanced age (as to say he’s past the fighting point of his life), one was pregnant, and the other just doesn’t seem like he would do that (again, I could be wrong, venues and atmospheres change people), I find it rather unlikely. And you don’t have to tell me about Yankee fans, some members of my family, as well as some of my friends, are Yankee fans and it is supremely annoying to hear them make excuses for all of their team’s failings and point out those of the rest of the league. I’m merely saying that after a defeat, most of them at least admit that the team slipped up or just didn’t do well. When the Eagles or the Phillies lose, all I hear from my Philly friends are excuses, excuses, and more excuses, blaming it on anything they can, and downright attacking the reputation of the other teams’ players out of nowhere. I do agree, however, that the stories I’ve heard about old Philly fans are usually much worse than modern Philly. I think some of that has to do with the relatively recent championships that the Eagles (2017) and Phillies (2008) brought to the city, which kind of relieved some tension.
In Australia i want to point out the weirdness with hooligan behavior here, the two most popular leagues, the Australian Football League (Aussie Rules)(AFL) and the National Rugby league (NRL) do not have much history of hooliganism and violence even though most of the teams are very close to each other.
For AFL there are still nine (9) teams within 8km (5 miles) from the Melbourne CBD. A city with very good public transport with trains, trams and buses.
The NRL also still have 9 teams in the Sydney Suburbs with good trains and buses.
These two leagues started as State leagues with most if not all teams based in the capitols so there was plenty of opportunity for even poor fans to travel to "away" games the next suburb over and fight the home fans but that did not happen.
Association Football (soccer) did have hooliganism and part of the reason was due to European immigrants importing hooliganism but also some of the teams were dominated by certain ethnicity's which when playing other teams with other ethnic e.g. the Wollongong Macedonia , and the Greek Sydney Olympic
There was also hooliganism at motor races with the motorcycle races at have infamous battles of the fans verses the police at the top of the mountain. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_motorcycle_Grand_Prix#Riots_at_Bathurst
For AFL there are still nine (9) teams within 8km (5 miles) from the Melbourne CBD. A city with very good public transport with trains, trams and buses.
The NRL also still have 9 teams in the Sydney Suburbs with good trains and buses.
These two leagues started as State leagues with most if not all teams based in the capitols so there was plenty of opportunity for even poor fans to travel to "away" games the next suburb over and fight the home fans but that did not happen.
Association Football (soccer) did have hooliganism and part of the reason was due to European immigrants importing hooliganism but also some of the teams were dominated by certain ethnicity's which when playing other teams with other ethnic e.g. the Wollongong Macedonia , and the Greek Sydney Olympic
There was also hooliganism at motor races with the motorcycle races at have infamous battles of the fans verses the police at the top of the mountain. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_motorcycle_Grand_Prix#Riots_at_Bathurst
Reading some of the comments on here I’m sorry but I have to whince from the post that declares unemployment in the U.K. as easy. Really? Have you tried it? There’s a reason the UK has some of the highest rates of homelessness in Europe. Also the “fact” that european sports are less violent than NFL - I’ve watched a lot of NFL and Rugby (both codes) and played rugby to a good level. Rugby is very physical and at times very violent.
Football hooliganism has zero to do with employment anyway. Possibly during the 70s when it was less organised. But in recent decades it has been organised and is run almost like criminal gangs. The level of misinformation here is astounding. My local “firm” the LTE used to boast how they had links with the IRA. Football hooliganism is far more than a riot or angry drunk yobs. Until that’s understood then you can try and figure why it doesn’t occur in certain places
Football hooliganism has zero to do with employment anyway. Possibly during the 70s when it was less organised. But in recent decades it has been organised and is run almost like criminal gangs. The level of misinformation here is astounding. My local “firm” the LTE used to boast how they had links with the IRA. Football hooliganism is far more than a riot or angry drunk yobs. Until that’s understood then you can try and figure why it doesn’t occur in certain places
Modern Imperialism
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A lot of nationalism and old grudges come out during sports events in Europe. One reason American sports don’t get as heated often times. A Northern Ireland vs Irish Republic can often turn violent among the crowds. Even in the games themselves especially in the past. People are much more impulsive at sports events and emotional. That’s why it’s probably good to study their behaviors. It gives us a look at stuff these people would not normally express openly.
People naturally vent more while active and playing sports. When someone excited or pissed they often do stuff they feel without even thinking. Like offensive or racist chants. Fifa games sometimes have people throw bananas or make monkey sounds. No one in US would ever do that even at Alabama and Ole Miss(they actually love black people on their football teams there like all players. They punch you for doing some shit like that). Brits have chants about bombing Germany during ww2. Ireland and loyalist probably have some rather tasteful chants about each other too.
Behavior like this is why I think many Europeans still have not come to terms with a lot of past things. Americans just don’t have that level of hidden resentment or build up frustration. Americans are often loud ignorant and blunt but I honestly think that’s why they don’t hold grudges as much or care about the past. Chants here for sports change by generations here because many Americans just live in the moment and don’t put that level of thought to it.
They say fuck Auburn, Tennessee, and LSU too at Alabama football games but at the end of the day we are all cool. We might get into heated argument when drunk and even fight a little over a football game at dinner but if your a Bama fan your wife or friends are often Auburn. It’s more friendly bullshitting and trash talk. Not personal.
A soccer game in Europe often has much more to it. Germany can’t even be too overly nationalistic when celebrating a simple damn World Cup victory without someone saying some shit about Nazis. They just won World Cup. Why should there be anything else to it. Much of Europe issue is trying to pretend everything is ok when it’s not. That British logic of “stay calm and go about your day” isn’t always a good thing. The flaws of that show during hooligans activities. It is a cultural and social issue more then anything.
Aren’t skinheads in Europe often soccer hooligans too?
Also worth mentioning, boredom was also a contributing factor. The Elton John song, Friday Night’s for Fighting was written by Bernie Taupin who based it upon the historical fights/pitched brawls between the towns of Market Rasen, Horncastle and Woodhall Spa. I know this as a relation of mine sadly who is no longer here grew up with Bernie Taupin. These fights would be pre organised and upwards of fifty men or each side would literally meet up with the sole purpose of beating each other up. Fighting it seems as in many other cultures was just something people did for entertainment.
Skinheads can be and are also soccer hooligans but this specific culture is extinct in the U.K. imo. Hooliganism is mainly apolitical although they tend to be nationalistic but in the U.K. it’s less so than say, Lazio in Italy which is tbh fascist at its core amongst its hardened or most extreme.
the big question i think is why is your average american so weak-willed outside of philly to be a proper sports fan?
You might need more people in the USA tbh
Cuba becomes a state and maybe the US is better with the Philippines and becomes a state and the population density becomes a lot higher and you get more foreign sports in the USA
Cuba becomes a state and maybe the US is better with the Philippines and becomes a state and the population density becomes a lot higher and you get more foreign sports in the USA
Modern Imperialism
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It’s harder to go to sports events and do stupid shit when everything is more spread out and you have work. Going to a college game is a trip and unlike Europe our youth doesn’t get nice unemployment or healthcare benefits that they do in Europe. Public transportation is not a thing in a lot of places. Poor young people can’t causally go tailgate or sports events depending on where they live. You can’t take a train, sub, bike, or walk to Alabama or college football game
Going to the doctors is expensive here. You just got your ass kick by a crowd fans and possibly cop too. You now have a medical and legal ticket bill to pay. You do realize those first aid ambulance and helicopters charge you for that service. Yall have all that covered. Also parents here are more likely to make there kids leave the house earlier and “take care of themselves” which means college debt often times.
Why would young Italians go work when they can get welfare, go to cafes, ride bikes, and go to beaches. They are going to wait for a good job unless they are absolutely forced to get a shit one especially for minimal wage.
True. The US has the level of surveillance+atomized social networks of developed nations but nothing else.
Personally I'd rather have people deciding to go be hooligans instead of being paperpushing public/private bureaucrats or middle management tbh.
Personally I'd rather have people deciding to go be hooligans instead of being paperpushing public/private bureaucrats or middle management tbh.
Modern Imperialism
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Maybe more public transportation will help with more hooligans. Russian Federation has them and they definitely don’t have many social safety nets anymore either but they do have public transportation at least in European Russia. Maybe US build widespread transportation systems alongside the interstate system when it’s built?
So I just went to a youth football game in my town. It was my town vs a town a couple towns away which is thought as much better off then my town. I found it interesting that the refs warned the parents for my towns team to quiet it down then one of the officials for the league said the same thing to the group of parents I was by. Got me to thinking what could youth/ high school football do ?
Have you ever actually been to Europe? You seem to make very broad statements about Europe that have no basis in reality.
Nice unemployment benefits in Europe? In the UK you get £72 a week (potentially with more if you've got kids, qualify for housing benefits etc, there's a reason why food bank use is exploding though and it's not because unemployed people just can't be bothered to use Just Eat...). In Italy it's 30% of your average earnings over the last three months. In what world are either of those comfortable?
So in the US only nice middle-class kids follow sports? Good to know. Presumably all the poor folks get enough entertainment shooting one another and guzzling meth, which is obviously enough fun they don’t let their ER bills worry them.
Amazingly enough, not all hooligans are “young” or unemployed and not all of them are Italian or even European. When I lived in the UK it wasn’t that unusual to read about people in their thirties or forties being convicted for attempted murder, grievous bodily harm, affray or whatever because they liked to relax after a hard week at work by beating fans of a rival team senseless.
Argentina, Poland, Russia, Greece, Turkey, Egypt, there are various gangs of “ultras” all over the world.
Modern Imperialism
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Being poor here is just less pleasant in general. Also like I said before the cops can be more impulsive and aggressive here especially if your poor. It is more class then even race now here but sports in America are often class base but football oddly enough is made one of the most available due to favoritisms and popularity. It’s actually more expensive gear wise but places provide that. Basketball all you need is hoop and ball and some space and your good.
Soccer is actually more of a middle and upper class sport in US because your “intellectual” upper class types think of it more positively then American football.
I count Brits as European but I am American. I honestly consider them more culturally in line with Western Europe then Eastern Europe but UK is kind of a odd ball in European family.
American college football crowds especially in south shows class division the most. If you ever watched a Alabama or LSU play look at student section in crowds. They are often frat boys who get first dibs on tickets because the frats do often have deals with schools. To be in a frat especially in SEC or ACC you have to be at least middle class or preferably higher. Being in cost “dues” or annual payments especially when you first join. Your also made to buy alcohol for members when you are trying to get in. On top of college tuition and expenses you have to have money to do this. These people are literally definition of daddy’s money or Trump Juniors type kids. They are at fucking Bama games in full black formal suits. Tickets as normal fan are hundreds to sometimes over thousands dollars.
These people don’t make up your blue collar fan base. Those stereotype rednecks or ghetto people often associated with places like this rarely ever get to go to actual games. That’s why you see a lot of Americans outside of stadiums tailgating or elsewhere watching it. They can only afford to go to go to hand full of games a lifetime if lucky. Frat houses in south have money to hire people like chance the rapper to perform at their places which is kind of ironic given the fact Alabama and SEC frat houses are often given the design of a plantation house.
I remember during egg bowl between old miss and Mississippi you would see Mississippi States who were more blue collar in background just beating shit out of a few frat boys for disrespecting. Frat boys are often upper class tools and chicken shits when they don’t have numbers and guy in front of him looks actually tough. They ran like hell once presented with people who just give zero shits. That’s one reason hooligans are probably more common among lower class often times. When you’re poor people often just stop caring and with their respect or pride being one thing they feel like they have can lead to rather impulsive behavior.
Modern Imperialism
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My mom only got 50 dollars a week growing for everything. We had 6 kids. One parent would work nights the other days. Usually switching back and forth. Often had to stay with at relatives or get groceries from them. Parents would not eat some night. They literally just order pizza for all 6 of us and not eat because that’s all they could afford. They would even cut our power off back in day. Middle of winter or hot summer doesn’t matter. You do realize how dangerous with more modern houses that cutting off power during summer can be especially in a place like Louisiana or Mississippi? That ruins the food in your refrigerator too or even cabinets at times.
I’m not saying yall don’t have issues but you have much more of a safety net then US. Also social safety nets do become harder bigger you are and win your own normal people would abuse system. Americans even poor often don’t support welfare because our people are often naturally inclined to abuse shit out of it lot.
No shit? What an absolutely amazing insight! Next you’ll be telling us that Canada is more Canada than Guatemala.
Ah well there we go. Amazingly enough in other countries a much wider cross-section of people can physically attend sports events, including people from the rugged part of town. Not sure why you are so completely and utterly obsessed with college sports btw, since by definition anyone interested in those will likely be a loafer-wearing primper with no idea how to use a broken beer glass properly.
