WI: Sports Hooliganism In The US?

[Modern Imperialism]

No shit? What an absolutely amazing insight! Next you’ll be telling us that Canada is more Canada than Guatemala.


Ah well there we go. Amazingly enough in other countries a much wider cross-section of people can physically attend sports events, including people from the rugged part of town. Not sure why you are so completely and utterly obsessed with college sports btw, since by definition anyone interested in those will likely be a loafer-wearing primper with no idea how to use a broken beer glass properly.

College Football only has 12 games a season. Maybe 14 depending on post season. NFL is 16 at most if you go all way to Super Bowl. Soccer does have benefit of multiple games a year which do lower the prices.

Baseball is more like this. They have so many games the ticket prices are much cheaper outside of the World Series even then their playoffs can be cheaper then other sports. Basketball has a lot of games too but tickets are usually more but not football level.

Hockey honestly could develop more hooligans given right social conditions. It would be more in north those especially in urban areas.

Also these aren’t only people interested in football. Many lower class people love football. Access to actually playing it is very open to lower class. The only one that’s easier to get into is maybe basketball. Every high school and many middle schools have teams. Most counties have youth leagues of some type. The issue and lack of access is more actually going to events.

Alabama and LSU tailgates outside of stadium have a lot of people just stay out there and get drunk while watching the game. More passive police and social norms could lead to more hooligans at places like this especially at rival games.

People like making fun of Alabama for being racist but if you actually went to one of their tailgates or events you would realize they probably have most black fans except for maybe Georgia or LSU in American sports. That is great aspect of American football in south. It has done a lot to bring people together.

In American football your supposed to be violent on the field not off it. Many people do play it to vent and let loose. This arguably might lead to some being more cooled down afterwards.

I feel like it is just easier for Brits to get rowdy when they play Irish or French teams? More personal or stuff to talk shit about. I would say the same for Scots vs Brits. It just seems more personal a lot instead of just a sport

 

[Calcaterra]

College Football only has 12 games a season. Maybe 14 depending on post season. NFL is 16 at most if you go all way to Super Bowl.

You could play 15 games in CFB, and the regular season in the NFL is 16 games. In reality, the NFL preseason brings the total games played for a team up to 20, and, if you start out as a wild card team and go to the Super Bowl, you could end up playing, all in all, 24 games.

 

[TheMathGuy]

Ah well there we go. Amazingly enough in other countries a much wider cross-section of people can physically attend sports events, including people from the rugged part of town. Not sure why you are so completely and utterly obsessed with college sports btw

The US has slightly more than twice as much land area as the EU and about 63% of the population of the EU. The EU has 950 professional soccer teams, whereas no sport in the US has more than 32 professional teams (the NFL has 32 teams). That means the EU has one team per 540000 people, and one team for every 1874 square miles. Meanwhile, the US has one NFL team for every 10225000 people (twenty times fewer professional teams per capita) and one NFL team for every 118626 square miles (each NFL team serves an area 63 times larger than the EU average). Other sports have even more unfavorable ratios.

That is why professional sporting events are so much more expensive in the US than in the EU, ie it's basic supply and demand. It's also why college sports are very popular; there are 130 college football teams, which have lower ticket prices than the NFL and are very likely to involve less travel.

*Edit*
Hooliganism and its relative lack in the US also arise from the different roles of sports, which is related to the geographic and population difference I mentioned previously. In Europe, teams tend to have deep associations with particular community, which often includes religious and political connotations, such as Lazio's links to fascists, Livorno's links to communists, Celtic FC's links to Catholicism and the IRA, and Rangers FC's links to Protestant Unionism. In the US, teams move around. Teams that remain rooted for long enough do incorporate much of the regional identity, but they represent such large cross-sections that they typically don't develop those additional community/cultural associations.

As for why teams are so sparse in the US, it's basically down to population density. Even with as many NFL teams as the EU has soccer teams, the distances involved in many areas would mean attendance would be sporadic. Keeping the land area served by teams the same as in the EU means there aren't enough people to support most teams. Thus, US sports leagues evolved to serve their regions primarily via television, and everything about the league structure is adapted to serve televising games, rather than stadium attendance.

 

[sparky42]

I feel like it is just easier for Brits to get rowdy when they play Irish or French teams? More personal or stuff to talk shit about. I would say the same for Scots vs Brits. It just seems more personal a lot instead of just a sport

Well first when you are saying "Brits" you mean English. Second, that's more just a football thing rather than general. Plenty of the other team sports between Ireland and England go off without any major issue with fans having no issue socialising together no matter how langered they are.

 

[Modern Imperialism]

The US has slightly more than twice as much land area as the EU and about 63% of the population of the EU. The EU has 950 professional soccer teams, whereas no sport in the US has more than 32 professional teams (the NFL has 32 teams). That means the EU has one team per 540000 people, and one team for every 1874 square miles. Meanwhile, the US has one NFL team for every 10225000 people (twenty times fewer professional teams per capita) and one NFL team for every 118626 square miles (each NFL team serves an area 63 times larger than the EU average). Other sports have even more unfavorable ratios.

That is why professional sporting events are so much more expensive in the US than in the EU, ie it's basic supply and demand. It's also why college sports are very popular; there are 130 college football teams, which have lower ticket prices than the NFL and are very likely to involve less travel.

*Edit*
Hooliganism and its relative lack in the US also arise from the different roles of sports, which is related to the geographic and population difference I mentioned previously. In Europe, teams tend to have deep associations with particular community, which often includes religious and political connotations, such as Lazio's links to fascists, Livorno's links to communists, Celtic FC's links to Catholicism and the IRA, and Rangers FC's links to Protestant Unionism. In the US, teams move around. Teams that remain rooted for long enough do incorporate much of the regional identity, but they represent such large cross-sections that they typically don't develop those additional community/cultural associations.

As for why teams are so sparse in the US, it's basically down to population density. Even with as many NFL teams as the EU has soccer teams, the distances involved in many areas would mean attendance would be sporadic. Keeping the land area served by teams the same as in the EU means there aren't enough people to support most teams. Thus, US sports leagues evolved to serve their regions primarily via television, and everything about the league structure is adapted to serve televising games, rather than stadium attendance.

College sports do have more regional and community elements to them but good point. The closest professional team that comes to this in US is Green Bay packers who are publicly own somewhat.

 

[Mike D]

I feel like it is just easier for Brits to get rowdy when they play Irish or French teams? More personal or stuff to talk shit about. I would say the same for Scots vs Brits. It just seems more personal a lot instead of just a sport

I'm struggling to remember ever hearing of trouble at sports outside of football - the only other one where British/English sides would play Irish/French sides regularly would be rugby which in general isn't a sport known for crowd trouble.

It's very rare for English (given your uses of Brits I assume you mean English) sides to play Irish (either Republic or NI) teams in competitive fixtures - neither Irish league is particularly good and it's very rare for them to get into the main UEFA competitions. I do remember Celtic playing Linfield in a Champions League qualifier in Belfast on the 11th July a couple of years back and amazingly that went off fairly peacefully from what I remember although I'm sure the PSNI's leadership had kittens when that draw was made...

I don't recall any serious trouble between English and French sides either - Liverpool played PSG without incident in last season's Champions League (although of the major English sides Liverpool's fans are probably far and away the most left wing and least likely to bother with nationalist chants against the opposition) and Man Utd have played over there recently too.

By far and away the worst trouble I recall for English fans in club competitions is with Italian Ultras who are well known for kicking off, stabbing people from behind from scooters etc. Roma and Napoli have caused violence against Liverpool in recent years and from memory Man United and possibly Chelsea also had issues over there. The Turks had a bad reputation a few years back too (a couple of Leeds fans were murdered over there in the early 00s) but I don't recall many recent incidents with them. The Russians are, of course, the Russians but their teams are generally shit and go out of competitions early too so their hooligans are mostly confined to domestic games and international tournaments rather than European club competitions.

In internationals the other British nations (and the Republic of Ireland) never seem to have massive issues abroad, the English fans do. The English national side unfortunately still has a much more right wing/nationalist following than the other nations and for some reason also seem more prone to doing stupid things while all day drinking that other British or European fans don't generally get involved in (the England fans in Amsterdam throwing things at tourist boats on the canal last year, for example) then getting the shit knocked out of them by the local riot police later on in the evening.

As a Liverpool fan I can't stand my own national team (the joy so many other fans have in laughing about the Hillsborough Disaster and thirty year old stereotypes about poverty and crime both in stadia and on social media means I love their misery every two years when they've been embarrassed in yet another international tournament) and the fans are one of the major reasons for it. At club level most sides have their own unpleasant element to them but most aren't interested in hooliganism these days - the sport is too commercialised and sanitised for that compared to the bad old days of the 80s, especially at Premier League level.

 

[Modern Imperialism]

I'm struggling to remember ever hearing of trouble at sports outside of football - the only other one where British/English sides would play Irish/French sides regularly would be rugby which in general isn't a sport known for crowd trouble.

It's very rare for English (given your uses of Brits I assume you mean English) sides to play Irish (either Republic or NI) teams in competitive fixtures - neither Irish league is particularly good and it's very rare for them to get into the main UEFA competitions. I do remember Celtic playing Linfield in a Champions League qualifier in Belfast on the 11th July a couple of years back and amazingly that went off fairly peacefully from what I remember although I'm sure the PSNI's leadership had kittens when that draw was made...

I don't recall any serious trouble between English and French sides either - Liverpool played PSG without incident in last season's Champions League (although of the major English sides Liverpool's fans are probably far and away the most left wing and least likely to bother with nationalist chants against the opposition) and Man Utd have played over there recently too.

By far and away the worst trouble I recall for English fans in club competitions is with Italian Ultras who are well known for kicking off, stabbing people from behind from scooters etc. Roma and Napoli have caused violence against Liverpool in recent years and from memory Man United and possibly Chelsea also had issues over there. The Turks had a bad reputation a few years back too (a couple of Leeds fans were murdered over there in the early 00s) but I don't recall many recent incidents with them. The Russians are, of course, the Russians but their teams are generally shit and go out of competitions early too so their hooligans are mostly confined to domestic games and international tournaments rather than European club competitions.

In internationals the other British nations (and the Republic of Ireland) never seem to have massive issues abroad, the English fans do. The English national side unfortunately still has a much more right wing/nationalist following than the other nations and for some reason also seem more prone to doing stupid things while all day drinking that other British or European fans don't generally get involved in (the England fans in Amsterdam throwing things at tourist boats on the canal last year, for example) then getting the shit knocked out of them by the local riot police later on in the evening.

As a Liverpool fan I can't stand my own national team (the joy so many other fans have in laughing about the Hillsborough Disaster and thirty year old stereotypes about poverty and crime both in stadia and on social media means I love their misery every two years when they've been embarrassed in yet another international tournament) and the fans are one of the major reasons for it. At club level most sides have their own unpleasant element to them but most aren't interested in hooliganism these days - the sport is too commercialised and sanitised for that compared to the bad old days of the 80s, especially at Premier League level.

I understand getting upset or annoyed with that but sanitizing it too much can suck join out of it. I say this as Americans because it is often your more social conservative stick in ass Mitt Romney type people that try to suck fun out of it by discouraging more bullshit and stupid but harmless elements of this behavior.

I feel in Europe you have left doing this more now too. For example how the hell is Belgium scoring machine chant racist at all? I would take that a compliment if I was soccer player and I scored. That is just fun and kind of cool.

In America we have people who think dancing, celebrating, and playoff trash talk is “unsportsmanlike” which is a stupid ass and hypothetical concept if you actually look into how sports are ran here. To me sports is the one place people should be able to let loose somewhat and not get judge or in trouble for it unless they get physical or are starting actually trouble. Why can’t a 18 year kid who scores a touchdown on national tv in college not do a celebration dance. I honestly want to punch ref for throwing those flags. You just seem like a dick telling him that wrong and he “disrespectful” for doing it.

I think Europeans often get more rowdy in sports because its one of few places in Europe you can just let loose and not be judge as much. People often let all their frustrations out while getting into a sport

 

[brunohusker]

Could it be possible that part of the reason the US doesn't have much in the way of Hooliganism is that with our sports teams, they are seen as above politics and above religion? I know in Scotland and England you have rivalries based on religion like Celtic/Rangers in Glasgow, and to a lesser extent Everton/Liverpool (though that's based on a falsehood as both teams were founded by protestants from what I can find, though Everton gained more of an Irish Catholic following somewhat.) Also its the same thing with politics. In Europe you'll have teams with a more conservative or liberal or a socialist bent. Not so much in the states. Even in college football, you don't see Nebraska fans hating on Iowa for being more moderate. Even when there are these stereotypes its not too bad. For example, in Kansas, the Jayhawks are from liberal Lawrence and that's where the doctors and lawyers go to school, while K-State is into ag and engineering and attracts more students from rural Kansas. Even then there are definitely Conservative Jayhawk fans and Liberal Wildcats and its not huge. Also in a lot of cases sports can be a unifier. Not that it isn't in other places, but you won't have nfl or mlb fans attack each other that much.

I think if hooliganism were to start it'd have to be over religion or politics or ethnic rivalries. Like for example if in Boston Red Sox fans were Irish Catholics, while the Braves were WASPY protestants, or if in New York the Yankees were mainly an Italian team while the Mets were mostly Jewish supported. Also, maybe class conflicts could be a thing as well.

 

[Mike D]

By far and away the worst trouble I recall for English fans in club competitions is with Italian Ultras who are well known for kicking off, stabbing people from behind from scooters etc.

Two Celtic fans stabbed by Lazio fans in Rome last night...

 

[Modern Imperialism]

Two Celtic fans stabbed by Lazio fans in Rome last night...

Italians and Irish people stabbing each other. That sounds more like the US then Europe. Was this by chance in a bar? Alcohol and sports can turn bloody or violent anywhere. What is the number of people you need to count for hooligans? I feel like at least 5 on both sides? This could literally be a group of drunk dudes that got in argument over some stupid shit and one pulled out knife things went south quick.

 

[Mike D]

Italians and Irish people stabbing each other. That sounds more like the US then Europe. Was this by chance in a bar? Alcohol and sports can turn bloody or violent anywhere. What is the number of people you need to count for hooligans? I feel like at least 5 on both sides? This could literally be a group of drunk dudes that got in argument over some stupid shit and one pulled out knife things went south quick.

Celtic are Scottish and stabbings of opposition fans in Rome are the norm. I don't think any British team have ever played in Rome without trouble kicking off.

 

[Modern Imperialism]

Celtic are Scottish and stabbings of opposition fans in Rome are the norm. I don't think any British team have ever played in Rome without trouble kicking off.

Why? I feel like getting stabbed sucks more then getting shot. At least second fast and straight through. How did this become a tradition. The thought of a Italian man stabbing me on a moped seems almost cartoonish.

 

[Mike D]

That's just what both sets of fans (Roma and Lazio) do. It goes back to at least 1984 (happened to Liverpool fans when we played Roma in the European Cup final in Rome).

 

[Snufkin]

The US has slightly more than twice as much land area as the EU and about 63% of the population of the EU. The EU has 950 professional soccer teams, whereas no sport in the US has more than 32 professional teams (the NFL has 32 teams). That means the EU has one team per 540000 people, and one team for every 1874 square miles. Meanwhile, the US has one NFL team for every 10225000 people (twenty times fewer professional teams per capita) and one NFL team for every 118626 square miles (each NFL team serves an area 63 times larger than the EU average). Other sports have even more unfavorable ratios.

I'm not that familiar with US Sports than most here, but in hockey there is AHL which is a farm league for NHL. The AHL players are professionals in all aspect. It is just not the highest level of play.

 

[overoceans]

Yeah, I think it was western Europeans that Cherry thought were effeminiate, though he had some reason for disliking Russians as well. I can't recall all the details.

The main point was not that it was foreign players he hated, but his reasons for hating them ie. he wanted hockey to be more thuggish. And that this attitude was popular across the country, not just in Alberta.

Not that I think we should have a discussion about current events, but since I was talking about Cherry largely in the past tense, I thought this story, which started just a couple of days ago, would make for an informative read. It gives you a pretty good idea of who the guy is, what he represents, and how widespread his popularity was(and to some degree, still is).

And, again, I'm not looking for comment on this controversy in particular.