Most people have at least some knowledge about the large problem of "hooliganism", the practice of much crime, looting, and fighting in association football worldwide, with well-publicized incidents dating back nearly a century. What surprises me most is that, with some notable exceptions (looking at you, Philadelphia), this practice has not been very widespread in the United States. How do you think this tradition, if you can call it that, could take hold of some sports in the US, and what would result from it?
WI: Sports Hooliganism In The US?
- Thread starter Calcaterra
- Start date
It'd pre-1900, but maybe less Puritan influence in the USA, so a more robust, less taboo-based drinking culture? I'm GUESSING that that alcohol has been a big influence on hooliganism in Europe, but I'm really not sure.
The whole structure of organized sports morphed early in the US into a more impersonal business model. I could be wrong, but weren’t teams still often funded by local notables as a kind of public good in the UK until the mid-20th century?
That sort of thing imparts a level of connection you don’t get from corporate sports. The bond is still remarkably strong, just not usually “riot” strong. In contrast, look at the relatively large amount of hooliganism associated with college sports. Sure, the fans are de facto younger, but the teams being more intrinsically community-based is also certainly a factor.
That sort of thing imparts a level of connection you don’t get from corporate sports. The bond is still remarkably strong, just not usually “riot” strong. In contrast, look at the relatively large amount of hooliganism associated with college sports. Sure, the fans are de facto younger, but the teams being more intrinsically community-based is also certainly a factor.
Probably the biggest factor of the lot. How many away fans do you usually get at an American sports fixture compared to several thousand at a Premier League/FA Cup game? If there's no opposition fans there's nobody to fight.
In the northeast, there's a fair amount of close together cities with sports teams and rivalries. It's the reason Red Sox-Yankees games can turn into disasters, when you hate one another and there are enough people for a fair fight, a fight will break out. I can see the Cubs and White Sox rivalry turning violent, especially before the Cubs became the corporate team they are today. Same thing if the Dodgers and Giants stay in Brooklyn and Manhattan, respectively, I can see 70s New York being a lot worse for the sports scene.
hammo1j
Donor
Seriously the Uk police are mad against letting the Genie out of the bottle. I've been to games with nephews where we been kettled even with no signs of violence at all from us away supporters.
So I guess it might be a very aggressive thing once it takes hold (similar to cancer, racism)..
So I guess it might be a very aggressive thing once it takes hold (similar to cancer, racism)..
Modern Imperialism
Banned
Unlike much of Europe the cops here will beat the shit out of you during stuff like this. People do realize that here. Many Americans first reaction when cops come even when drunk is to run like hell or leave. Europeans will literally egg them on or shrug them off because they know they aren’t going to get as mean or aggressive with them. If you spit in a cops face at lets say a SEC football game like Alabama or LSU the cop will put you in a chokehold and bodyslam or even straight up hit you in the face if he can get away with it(they know to be watchful of who around or people filming. I’ve seen cops smash people phones for filming them here) A US cop has a pistol Europeans ones don’t all the time. Cops here honestly sometimes get a bit excited when you give a reason to tear gas a crowd. The cops here are also very militarized. Europeans don’t call it swat and riot control until things get really bad. American cops have that equipment and gear ready to go whenever. They even have military vehicles sometimes.
But all that might play more into social expectations and culture. If you got rid of many social taboos hooligans could become more widespread and common in the US. I could honestly see frat boys being like that for college sports. I say any pod that sees a more capitalist US could have this. Capitalist desires for profit could see more social conservatives and religious people complaints ignored or given lip service at best. I would also say a less western or less Eurocentric US helps here. The less US cares about looking good to others countries or following “Europeans lead” the more you see unfiltered American culture again.
Our sports especially in the past were much more brutal and violent then Europe. Europeans criticism and reactions to it did make politicians push towards banning or regulating sports like American football more. Americans for the most part saw little issue with these games. It’s more of your wasp types from New England and mid Atlantic States who put all these social guidelines and standards to sports and everyone seemed to follow. Someone mentioned the Puritan influences which is mainly a New England thing(that’s where Puritans settled).
Another major issue those is how violent hooligans could get here. Americans I would argue are more inclined to get in fights and pull weapons on each other. If I punch a opposing soccer fan in Europe I might get jumped but I doubt anyone will pull out a pistol on me. Maybe a knife but even that isn’t as likely. Also if you ever seen any riots here you do know it’s not uncommon for store owners to shoot looters. If you break a store window in some little college town the owner might very well come out with a shotgun or rifle pointed straight at you. The first amendment does mean a lot of dead hooligans.
Americans concept of “sportsmanship” is a oxymoron and full of contradiction. It really just takes a pod that has people call the NCAA and professional sports out on more of their bullshit. For example, NFL ban barstool from their events because they made jokes about the owner. Given favorable judges and some luck they could take NFL to court over that and win. A legal case can be made against professional sports or ncaa relating to freedom of speech. They often try to censor chants or get people in trouble for doing small things. For example, LSU will chant “Suck that Tiger Dick” but the band will play over them and are told not to play the song they chant that too. Some old person will say this “demeans” the “integrity” of game. It really just takes people saying screw that let them enjoy the game and have fun. If American sports become more like this I think hooligans become more common or whatever the US equivalent would be(frat boys for college? Hooligans for pros?). Americans love showmanship. The more you make sports culture impulsive, raw, unfiltered, and instinct base the more people will just let loose during it. If sports is seen as outlet for people to let loose then more hooligans you will have
But all that might play more into social expectations and culture. If you got rid of many social taboos hooligans could become more widespread and common in the US. I could honestly see frat boys being like that for college sports. I say any pod that sees a more capitalist US could have this. Capitalist desires for profit could see more social conservatives and religious people complaints ignored or given lip service at best. I would also say a less western or less Eurocentric US helps here. The less US cares about looking good to others countries or following “Europeans lead” the more you see unfiltered American culture again.
Our sports especially in the past were much more brutal and violent then Europe. Europeans criticism and reactions to it did make politicians push towards banning or regulating sports like American football more. Americans for the most part saw little issue with these games. It’s more of your wasp types from New England and mid Atlantic States who put all these social guidelines and standards to sports and everyone seemed to follow. Someone mentioned the Puritan influences which is mainly a New England thing(that’s where Puritans settled).
Another major issue those is how violent hooligans could get here. Americans I would argue are more inclined to get in fights and pull weapons on each other. If I punch a opposing soccer fan in Europe I might get jumped but I doubt anyone will pull out a pistol on me. Maybe a knife but even that isn’t as likely. Also if you ever seen any riots here you do know it’s not uncommon for store owners to shoot looters. If you break a store window in some little college town the owner might very well come out with a shotgun or rifle pointed straight at you. The first amendment does mean a lot of dead hooligans.
Americans concept of “sportsmanship” is a oxymoron and full of contradiction. It really just takes a pod that has people call the NCAA and professional sports out on more of their bullshit. For example, NFL ban barstool from their events because they made jokes about the owner. Given favorable judges and some luck they could take NFL to court over that and win. A legal case can be made against professional sports or ncaa relating to freedom of speech. They often try to censor chants or get people in trouble for doing small things. For example, LSU will chant “Suck that Tiger Dick” but the band will play over them and are told not to play the song they chant that too. Some old person will say this “demeans” the “integrity” of game. It really just takes people saying screw that let them enjoy the game and have fun. If American sports become more like this I think hooligans become more common or whatever the US equivalent would be(frat boys for college? Hooligans for pros?). Americans love showmanship. The more you make sports culture impulsive, raw, unfiltered, and instinct base the more people will just let loose during it. If sports is seen as outlet for people to let loose then more hooligans you will have
Giants vs Dodgers is probably still the most violent rivalry's in American sports if they stayed in NYC wow
Have you ever met the Spanish police? Or the Germans? The CRS in France? European police forces aren't shy of violence and most of them are armed too. Every away game England (Northern Irish, Scottish and Welsh fans never seem to have the same problems) play comes with the same repetitive mobile phone footage of drunken bellends being filled in by the local riot police after they've kicked off.
Modern Imperialism's points are interesting, but they essentially amount to saying that European societies have more sports violence because they're more pacifistic. eg. European police are more civilized, so European fans take advantage of that to run amuck and beat the crap out of each other.
The idea that Americans are "more inclined to get into a fight" is interesting because I've seen the American reaction to a NAAFI brawl and I'd rather have the girls from the COMCEN with me in a fight (the girls are more likely to stick the head on someone too, Americans don't seem to understand the occasional need to headbutt someone).
Coud you translate this into layman's terms? The only NAAFI that comes up on an internet search is a canteen service for the UK military, and I don't know how or if that relates to soccer.
It's still not really true. We have less incidents of police violence against individuals, but when it comes to angry mobs European cops are just as quick to break out the tear gas as US ones are.
With all due respect if you think that level of violence in response to violence is seen as beyond the pale for European police forces (let alone riot police). Then you are wrong.
When football violence was at it's height the riot squads were pre-deployed at games that were known as likely hot spots
You think Europeans expressed dislike for violence in American football? I hate to break it to you but until pretty recently Europeans weren't really aware of American Football (beyond the fact it was a game that was played in America) and beyond the UK I'd say it still hasn't impinged much on European consciousness at all. Equally i'm pretty sure American football wouldn't really care about European perspectives either as they're not the paying audience? Also in terms of violence American football isn't really that violent, I'd put Rugby above it in terms of actual on pitch violence (this is not the same as long term injury chances, as the two games are played very differently)
Only European police aren't really are less prone to violence.
I do think the ubiquity of guns makes organised violence (and responses to it) different though
It's either a shop or a pub (they ran both) and the scene of many a multi-competitor open amateur MMA event.
The British don't generally limit themselves to only fighting at the football (which is actually fairly rare these days, although it still happens - the dark days of the 70s and 80s have thankfully passed for most fans these days).
Modern Imperialism
Banned
The Europeans cops might get aggressive at times but they do so for good reason. Hooligans are usually the clear starter of conflicts. I saw a film other day of a American cop punching a high schooler straight in the face after the fight he was in was already over and dealt with. European cops are train to monitor, restrain, and control threats, American cops do try to do frontier type shit. European cops have very strict standards and codes. They normally won’t get overly aggressive unless you give them a good reason. Americans ones need less reasons to get aggressive. American cops are much more impulsive.
Relating to American football Europeans did not care about the actual sport but they often sighted how American football in its early days could be brutal and unorganized. Some Europeans would use it as propaganda to point out how violent Americans are. It made them look bad at home and abroad in its early days. Americans often find soccer boring. Also football without all these new rules and even two or more decades back was much more physical then now. People are much more reckless and dangerous when they have helmet. I’ve played both rugby and football. If you played football in American south or ghettos across this nation in high school or even younger the people their are much less likely to enforce the newer safety rules to the sport. When in piles or close up we would be punching people because the ref can’t see. I remember my coach telling me “you can do stuff in this sport that can get you arrested in real life. Yall should be enjoying hitting people”. We were in 5 grade when he told us this after not going hard enough on a board hitting drill. Do you know what Bull in the ring is or Oklahoma drill? I would do those drills when in middle and elementary school. Bull in ring drill is actually illegal now. It’s a drill were one man lined up in the middle of a circle of people and coach calls a number. That number is someone within the circle who comes full speed to hit before he immediately calls the next number to come at you. If you don’t act quick your taking a full on hit to the back of your body. The issue with American sports like football sometimes you have more raw athletes or “toughness” value over sports IQ sometimes. A raw athlete who isn’t trained to tackle correctly will have a chance of hurting you and himself very badly. Coaches here teach you to put your head where football is to hopefully knock it out but this usually ends with your head taking the full force of a body to it. That hurts like hell sometimes. The rugby tackle is what more coaches are starting to teach now and is safer and better to do. A rugby tackle is practical a running double leg takedown. Your head is outside of the body not inside of it. Soccer games you can’t get away with just being raw athletes as much. You need to be smart about your sport and more tactical. Football raw athlete can do well on defense. A sports iq is preferred those. Also have you seen the size of our football athletes. I was barely 180 in high school. I had to play against people who were 250 to 300 on the line a lot. A lot of those people could actual move fast for big men and were athletes. Most sports don’t have physical size gaps that big. I could knock them down if I hit them in knees when blowing up the line but running straight into them feels like hitting a wall with a helmet sometimes. Rugby is tough but it isn’t as ignorant or primal as some American football culture is. Many Americans absolutely hate new safety rules in football and will straight up tell you that those rules are “soft” or “made by pussies”. People boo helmet to helmet flags. Sometimes even the opposing team does when it’s thrown at the other team. People here love seeing big hits. You can’t hit people like that in rugby. Pads let you put your body more into them without hurting yourself. Have you ever taken a helmet to bare leg or gut or even you ribs. My coaches would literally tell me to go out there and in their words “go fuck them up”. I blame the lessen of physical contact as one reasons NFL and basketball too are losing views. American basketball even use to have more contact. Remember the bad boys or pistons. NBA use to have fights a lot more and got physical on court. Now you can’t even check one hand or touch them. Boxing use to be biggest sport event here at one time but when they lessen violence many Americans started not watching it or moving to UFC. Americans don’t like mayweather because he dances around the ring and wins by points instead of trying to knock someone and give hard hits. What he does take talent but that isn’t what sport is supposed to be to many Americans. They see that as a “bitch” way to fight or win. Eastern Europe especially Russians are the only Europeans I see that get as mean as people here in sports. Hockey actually growing in the US because people who don’t even watch it here respect it and people like how you can square up against people in it and be physical. Europeans often don’t understand the finer details of American football but to be fair Americans lack a lot of knowledge on their football too. It’s is a different mindset. American politicians don’t want us looking like thugs while playing sports. UFC almost got banned in every state before it refined itself to become more “legitimate” I guess. American football didn’t change rules until people pointed out the brutalities in it and politicians even threatened to ban sport in early last century. Germany in 30s posted a propaganda picture of human pyramid field goal block in Oregon vs Oregon State to highlight how dangerous American sports were. That same play was banned the next season after.
Will Europeans shout “break his fucking neck” or “put him into the ground or hospital”? Some more extreme Americans will during football. During college football or nfl you will see players who got ejected for helmet to helmet egg on the crowd and own up to his actions like it’s something to be proud of while walking to the back. Coaches don’t even get mad about those flags often because they find them as bullshit too half the time. Refs are hated for throwing flags like that. Watch a video of big hits in American football. Rugby players don’t go fly after hits like football does sometimes.
It’s bad enough when they only share a state - a Giants fan got beaten into a coma by some asshole Dodgers fan/fans a few years back. That becomes an annual occurrence if they both stay in New York. Throw in the Yankees and it gets a bit more out of hand.
Which brings up another point - not only are American cities and teams more spread out (name ANOTHER league outside America that has to deal with FOUR time zones and have teams regularly cross a Goddamn CONTINENT...the CFL doesn’t count) but leagues are set up in such a way that crosstown rivalries aren’t much of a thing. With the exception of a few massive cities, it’s one team to a metro area here, and in those large cities, you don’t get enough bitterness - or the opportunity for it - to justify anything close to rioting. The Mets don’t play the Yankees enough for it to be anything more than a novelty. The Dodgers and Angels don’t give two shits about each other. Chicago has potential, but the hate seems to be one-sided - Cubs fans kind of look down their noses at the White Sox, and even Sox fans don’t rise above bitterness (though there’s plenty of that - Obama’s biggest lie as President has to be when he said he didn’t hate the Cubs. I’ve been to Sox games and seen firsthand how hated the Cubs are and I know he was full of shit.) But even that isn’t enough for rioting.
Really, the only fandom in America that has any potential for hooliganism is college football, and someone pointed out earlier that the cops would stop that in its tracks. Even incidents like when some fuckheads poisoned Auburn’s historic trees were met with unequivocal condemnation from even Alabama fans and officials. Rioting and hooliganism would not be tolerated.
Even at the smaller levels, it’s not tolerated. I attended Ohio University in the early 2000s, and the hockey fans were the closest things we had to hooligans and even then they were barely a 2/10 on the hooligan scale. All they did was come up with edgy chants and curse a lot (after every OU goal, the fans all united in a chant of “We’re gonna kick the shit out of you, and your mom, and your dad, and your girlfriend too!”) At one point during a heated game with Penn State (a rival to OU at the time...and if I may be serious for a minute here...fuck Penn State) a couple of OU fans started shouting racial slurs at a Penn State player (I think the player was Asian, but I don’t know and it doesn’t matter; I wasn’t at the game and heard about it secondhand.) Everyone not only condemned it but trended into “overreact” territory, telling the fans to cut the off-color chants that included the word “shit.” Fortunately the slurs stopped and the run-of-the-milk profanity did not.
Hooligan culture just isn’t there and there are too many things working against it, including that Americans don’t seem to live and die with a particular team in a particular sport. In Europe, it’s always been all about soccer first and foremost, and everything else is just details. In America, fandom has evolved and is far too regional and often all over the place, and rivals evolve from incidents and not familiarity breeding decades of contempt, and then such rivalries dissipate when there’s no reason for them to keep up.
That's basically the way North American hockey, as honed largely by Canadians, works. The Canada/Russia '72 series is still a widely celebrated event, even though it is generally accepted that Bobby Clarke made a premeditated decision to skate onto the ice and injure a Russian player so as to render him unable to play the rest of the games.
Maybe things have been toned down a little the last couple of decades, at least at the kiddie level, as a result of lawsuit-culture kicking in. Even so, I don't think there's ever been any sense of shame or regret about hockey violence among the general public in Canada.
I know it's a sample of one, but my dad, once a big, but quiet, hockey fan, refuses to watch NHL hockey anymore. His take on it is that the players have gotten too big and too fast for NHL-sized ice, and that there is too much emphasis on shoving the opposing players into the boards as hard and as often as possible, and not enough on puck handling and skating skill. His take on it is that the League should adopt Olympic-sized ice and adopt stricter rules on bodychecking, but neither are at all likely to happen.