WI: All of Katherine of Aragon's children live to adulthood

[Dame Violet]

A.K.A the one where I decided that I wrote two Anne Boleyn wins threads, time for a KOA wins thread. Originally, I was going to do one based off my Alternate Monarchs post where Katherine's daughters live, but I just felt I wouldn't be able to pull it off correctly. So here we go.

Let's get the family tree out of the way first. Various sources say Catherine was pregnant either seven or six times. For simplicity's sake, I have decided to go with six times. To save myself a headache, I will write the date of births, please speak up if my math is incorrect or unlikely. Names may be subject to change besides obviously Henry and Mary.

King Henry VIII (b. June 28, 1491) m Queen Katherine of Aragon (b. December 16, 1485).

Princess Elizabeth (b. March 13, 1510).​

Prince Henry, Duke of Cornwall (b. January 1, 1511).​

Prince Edward, Duke of York (b. October 30, 1513).​

Prince John, Duke of Somerset (b. November 4, 1514).​

Princess Mary (b. February 18 1516).​

Princess Catherine (b. December 24 1518).​

​

 

[RedKing]

For the Duke of Somerset, Arthur could be used in honour of Henry's late brother and Catherine's first husband or John after the boy's Beaufort ancestors who were the Dukes of Somerset before him. For the Duke of Richmond Edmund could be used in honour of Henry VIII's Grandfather and the Earl of Richmond. Besides that really interesting so far!

 

[BlueFlowwer]

For the Duke of Somerset, Arthur could be used in honour of Henry's late brother and Catherine's first husband or John after the boy's Beaufort ancestors who were the Dukes of Somerset before him. For the Duke of Richmond Edmund could be used in honour of Henry VIII's Grandfather and the Earl of Richmond. Besides that really interesting so far!

I agree with Arthur and John for Catherine's sons.

 

[pandizzy]

I doubt they would name a child after Arthur. John seems more likely to me.

 

[RedKing]

I agree with Arthur and John for Catherine's sons.

Definitely with four sons they will definitely name one Arthur.

I doubt they would name a child after Arthur. John seems more likely to me.

Why not? Henry VIII was quite close with Arthur and Catherine was most likely in love with him. It would also be a nice homage to Arthur.

 

[pandizzy]

Why not? Henry VIII was quite close with Arthur and Catherine was most likely in love with him. It would also be a nice homage to Arthur.

Henry VIII was under his brother's shadow for the first ten years of his life. He doesn't want to be reminded of that time when he wasn't Buff King Hal. And Catherine can't reveal she was in love with a husband that she claims was never her husband all along. John and Edmund are far safer.

 

[RedKing]

Henry VIII was under his brother's shadow for the first ten years of his life. He doesn't want to be reminded of that time when he wasn't Buff King Hal. And Catherine can't reveal she was in love with a husband that she claims was never her husband all along. John and Edmund are far safer.

Henry VIII's reason makes sense, but Catherine's not so much IMO. The two were married and were a happy couple for several months, and she didn't claim he wasn't her husband just that the marriage wasn't consummated (which yes, under Cannon Law does mean that the marriage wasn't officiated, though Catherine most likely said it was not consummated in order to marry Henry and fulfill what she saw as her destiny to be Queen of England).

 

[pandizzy]

Henry VIII's reason makes sense, but Catherine's not so much IMO. The two were married and were a happy couple for several months, and she didn't claim he wasn't her husband just that the marriage wasn't consummated (which yes, under Cannon Law does mean that the marriage wasn't officiated, though Catherine most likely said it was not consummated in order to marry Henry and fulfill what she saw as her destiny to be Queen of England).

Catherine maintained until her death that the marriage wasn't consummated. At the time, they believed that if you lied before your death, you would be condemned to hell.

 

[pandizzy]

If a Catherine wishes for a son named arthur, then people can say that she wishes arthur was still alive, that Arthur was still her husband and so on. Henry is not gonna risk that.

 

[King of Danes]

I find it fairly implausible that Catherine would give birth to a daughter 13th March of 1510 and then to a son on January 1st of 1511. Even if she conceives in March it would just barely allow for nine months to pass between their births.

 

[pandizzy]

I find it fairly implausible that Catherine would give birth to a daughter 13th March of 1510 and then to a son on January 1st of 1511. Even if she conceives in March it would just barely allow for nine months to pass between their births.

If Henry is born in 1512, theres still a new year prince, and time for edward to be born in 1513.

 

[RedKing]

Catherine maintained until her death that the marriage wasn't consummated. At the time, they believed that if you lied before your death, you would be condemned to hell.

If a Catherine wishes for a son named arthur, then people can say that she wishes arthur was still alive, that Arthur was still her husband and so on. Henry is not gonna risk that.

Well, if she didn't lie then she's okay. As for Catherine wanting Arthur alive, okay, but I doubt she'd be blamed for wanting Arthur to be alive (especially since Henry is her husband). I also think the fact they named their third son Arthur would imply that it was more of a homage and a memoriam to Arthur than Catherine wanting Arthur to be alive.

 

[pandizzy]

Well, if she didn't lie then she's okay. As for Catherine wanting Arthur alive, okay, but I doubt she'd be blamed for wanting Arthur to be alive (especially since Henry is her husband). I also think the fact they named their third son Arthur would imply that it was more of a homage and a memoriam to Arthur than Catherine wanting Arthur to be alive.

I mean, at this time Henry is still Sir Loyal Heart, and will presumably remain as such with the arrival of healthy sons. He's not the bad husband we know today.

And Henry was more keen on paying homage to his grandfather Edward IV than to King Arthur, IIRC.

 

[King of Danes]

If Henry is born in 1512, theres still a new year prince, and time for edward to be born in 1513.

That would work better yeah!

 

[JaniceTheMannis]

Amazing idea! For the boys' names, what about "John" after Catherine's dead brother Juan? I thought about "Ferdinand" but given the bad blood between Henry and Ferdinand that might not be a great idea. Or "Edmund" after Henry's brother who died young? Or "George" after the saint?

I don't think Henry would pick Arthur because he grew up in Arthur's shadow, and Catherine is too tactful to suggesting naming their kid after her dead husband.

 

[RedKing]

I mean, at this time Henry is still Sir Loyal Heart, and will presumably remain as such with the arrival of healthy sons. He's not the bad husband we know today.

Had he not had an affair with a Frenchwoman while campaigning in France by now (granted he didn't have a son by her and made said son a double Duke).

And Henry was more keen on paying homage to his grandfather Edward IV than to King Arthur, IIRC.

Yes, but here's he has already paid homage to his Grandfather, and I don't see why Arthur is unlikely, if anything Henry might go along with it since he did like Arthur.

I don't think Henry would pick Arthur because he grew up in Arthur's shadow, and Catherine is too tactful to suggesting naming their kid after her dead husband.

I honestly can't see why Catherine would be against the name Arthur (I could be missing something though).

 

[pandizzy]

So, to me, it should be like this

King Henry VIII (b. June 28, 1491) m Queen Katherine of Aragon (b. December 16, 1485).
Princess Elizabeth (b. March 13, 1510).
Prince Henry, Duke of Cornwall (b. January 1, 1512).
Prince Edward, Duke of York (b. October 30, 1513).
Prince John, Duke of Somerset (b. November 4, 1514).
Princess Mary (b. February 18 1516).
Prince Edmund, Duke of Richmond (b. August 29, 1517).
Princess Catherine (b. December 24 1518).

 

[Zireael]

I find it fairly implausible that Catherine would give birth to a daughter 13th March of 1510 and then to a son on January 1st of 1511. Even if she conceives in March it would just barely allow for nine months to pass between their births.

I knew someone who had two children born in the same calendar year (February or March and November or December), literally back-to-back pregnancies.

On the topic of names, given the history with Arthur I suspect this name is out. John and Edward or George?
(And on the side topic of Arthur and Catherine's brief marriage, given that they were 15 and only married for seven months, it is highly likely that they hadn't had intercourse in fact - a token attempt was likely made, then some blood spilled on the sheets as proof, but nothing more)

 

[Dame Violet]

For the Duke of Somerset, Arthur could be used in honour of Henry's late brother and Catherine's first husband or John after the boy's Beaufort ancestors who were the Dukes of Somerset before him. For the Duke of Richmond Edmund could be used in honour of Henry VIII's Grandfather and the Earl of Richmond. Besides that really interesting so far!

I agree with Arthur and John for Catherine's sons.

I think John and Edmund would be good. John would also repersent John of Gaunt who, if I recall correctly was both Catherine and Henry's ancestor.

Catherine maintained until her death that the marriage wasn't consummated. At the time, they believed that if you lied before your death, you would be condemned to hell.

I don't know. I mean no disrespect to Catherine, but she wasn't perfect and I could see her convincing herself that her time with Arthur didn't count or something like that. However, you make a good point about naming the third son Arthur.

I find it fairly implausible that Catherine would give birth to a daughter 13th March of 1510 and then to a son on January 1st of 1511. Even if she conceives in March it would just barely allow for nine months to pass between their births.

If Catherine concived Prince Henry in April, that would be about nine months. May, June, July, August, September, October, November, December, January. I will be having Prince Henry be born a few weeks prematurly, but it still works.

 

[Dame Violet]

I knew someone who had two children born in the same calendar year (February or March and November or December), literally back-to-back pregnancies.

On the topic of names, given the history with Arthur I suspect this name is out. John and Edward or George?
(And on the side topic of Arthur and Catherine's brief marriage, given that they were 15 and only married for seven months, it is highly likely that they hadn't had intercourse in fact - a token attempt was likely made, then some blood spilled on the sheets as proof, but nothing more)

I was thinking of having the October baby (just a few days before All Saints day) be named George after England's patron saint but I figured Henry would go with Edward.