WI: All of Katherine of Aragon's children live to adulthood

Had he not had an affair with a Frenchwoman while campaigning in France by now (granted he didn't have a son by her and made said son a double Duke).
Henry VIII would never stay faithful to anyone, but in this timeline, he will not become the abusive husband he later turned into. By all accounts, at the start of their marriage, Katherine and Henry were a very good match, known in Europe as a marriage for love. With four healthy sons, this man will not exile his wife and stop her from seeing her daughter. It's likely he will remain as he originally was: proud, but loving, if not faithful.

Yes, but here's he has already paid homage to his Grandfather, and I don't see why Arthur is unlikely, if anything Henry might go along with it since he did like Arthur.
I think you're taking modern brotherly love to heart. Henry might have liked Arthur, but they did not have the relationship Henry had with Mary, which would explain naming a child after. Especially if Henry is married to Arthur's widow. In his eyes, Henry has to be better than Arthur, has to let people forget that Arthur even exists, otherwise, why did his brother even die, making him the heir?

I honestly can't see why Catherine would be against the name Arthur (I could be missing something though).
I think you're just forgetting that this was a woman who spent 7 years in poverty after Arthur died and is only living a queenly life because of Henry. If he says no baby arthur, then there is no baby arthur. And Catherine was too much of a fifties house wife to suggest it herself.
 
Henry VIII would never stay faithful to anyone, but in this timeline, he will not become the abusive husband he later turned into. By all accounts, at the start of their marriage, Katherine and Henry were a very good match, known in Europe as a marriage for love. With four healthy sons, this man will not exile his wife and stop her from seeing her daughter. It's likely he will remain as he originally was: proud, but loving, if not faithful.
I suppose, though knowing Henry he probably can't help but visit that pretty unmarried girl down the hallway.
I think you're taking modern brotherly love to heart. Henry might have liked Arthur, but they did not have the relationship Henry had with Mary, which would explain naming a child after. Especially if Henry is married to Arthur's widow. In his eyes, Henry has to be better than Arthur, has to let people forget that Arthur even exists, otherwise, why did his brother even die, making him the heir?
I suppose, but even then Henry's life did go downhill after Arthur's death, he was taken away from his Mother and sister by his Father, his Mother died in childbirth, his Father was way too protective of him etc. So him wanting to show everyone he's better than Arthur and that Arthur never existed seems like a stretch.
I think you're just forgetting that this was a woman who spent 7 years in poverty after Arthur died and is only living a queenly life because of Henry. If he says no baby arthur, then there is no baby arthur. And Catherine was too much of a fifties house wife to suggest it herself.
I agree with her going along with Henry if he shoots Arthur down. But calling Catherine a fifties house wife? She was quite the matriarch. She led an army against the Scots, served as Regent for several months etc. Calling her a fifties house wife does her a disservice IMO. She would definitely suggest at least one name for her 6 children.
*Clarence flashbacks*

No.
That's what I was thinking, the Clarence and Warwick connection might make that name a no go.
 
I agree with her going along with Henry if he shoots Arthur down. But calling Catherine a fifties house wife? She was quite the matriarch. She led an army against the Scots, served as Regent for several months etc. Calling her a fifties house wife does her a disservice IMO. She would definitely suggest at least one name for her 6 children.
She made his shirts for over 20 years.
 
Sadly, my other favorite boy name, Richard, will not work as well.
Richard of Richmond would have the alliterative appeal, but alas no.

Okay, I think we are in agreement about the names. I have changed the tree accordingly. Prince John and Prince Edmund. I think Henry would most certainly let Katherine name his third son as his way of rewarding her for giving him three sons. Edmund would be his way of saying look how far we've come.

Now about the girls' names. Although, I am obviously not changing Mary's name, can anybody think of an in-universe reason for Henry and Catherine to go with Mary's name instead of naming their second daughter after Catherine herself?

My goodness, I was not expecting so much activity in this thread already.
 
Richard of Richmond would have the alliterative appeal, but alas no.

Okay, I think we are in agreement about the names. I have changed the tree accordingly. Prince John and Prince Edmund. I think Henry would most certainly let Katherine name his third son as his way of rewarding her for giving him three sons. Edmund would be his way of saying look how far we've come.

Now about the girls' names. Although, I am obviously not changing Mary's name, can anybody think of an in-universe reason for Henry and Catherine to go with Mary's name instead of naming their second daughter after Catherine herself?

My goodness, I was not expecting so much activity in this thread already.
It could be after the virgin mary. maybe catherine had a difficult pregnancy and they made a vow that if the child was born healthy and Catherine survived, they would name it mary if it was a girl.
 
Now about the girls' names. Although, I am obviously not changing Mary's name, can anybody think of an in-universe reason for Henry and Catherine to go with Mary's name instead of naming their second daughter after Catherine herself?
None needed really, Henry just named her after his sister and the Virgin. If needed just push her birthdate to coincide with some holy date relating to Mary.
 
1510
"With the way Henry is carrying on, you would think the queen has birthed a son," Princess Mary writes to her sister, Queen Margaret of Scotland. It should be noted that this is not Mary disparaging her brother or her beloved sister-in-law for that matter, when she says this. For months, the new King Henry had been certain that his lady love was carrying England's newest prince. He bragged of how his son would be exactly like him, handsome, strong and smart.

"Oh, he will be the greatest of all princes," King Henry crowed.

"Even greater than you?" Charles Brandon teased.

To which, the monarch replied: "Thankfully, I have an eighteen year head start."

When Princess Elizabeth, sometimes referred to as Princess Isabel, was born, everyone expected King Henry to be disappointed that he had a daughter instead of a son. However, that was not the case. The minute, his daughter was put in his arms, King Henry was loudly proclaiming that God had gifted him the most perfect girl in the whole world. She was as beautiful as a rose and more precious than a sapphire [1].

Katherine of Aragon was equally pleased at having birth a healthy baby, all though she was a bit tired after the long hours of labor to celebrate like her husband was. "God has blessed our union," she declared. "A hale princess at the beginning of a new age in England is a good omen."

It seemed that Henry agreed wholeheartedly. He dedicated his wins in the joust to Princess Elizabeth, and every toast he made, seemed to have at least one compliment towards her. Hence his sister's good natured ribbing at his behavior.

On March 16th, Princess Elizabeth was christened in Church of the Observant Friars, where her father himself had been christianed, A witness reported: The heralds carried their tabards. Attendants and serving men bore unlighted torches. Lords and ladies carried the equipment needed for the ceremony: a gold cellar of salt, for the exorcism of the child; great silver gilt basins in which the godparents could wash off traces of the holy oil with which the child was anointed; a chrisom-cloth, to be bound over the crown of the baby’s head after she had been anointed with chrisom; and a taper, to be lit after the baptism was completed. Elizabeth herself was carried by a duchess, and her long train by three peers and peeresses of the royal blood. Four barons carried a canopy over her. She was christened by the Bishop of London,. Three times the baby was plunged in the waters of the font. Then the lighted taper was thrust in her hand. At this moment, all the torches were lit; the heralds put on their tabards and the trumpets rang out in honour of Elizabeth, Princess of England and of France [2].

The baby's godparents were Catherine of York, the Earl of Surrey [3], his wife Anges Howard, Charles Brandon, Princess Mary {4] and María de Salinas {5]. Through his envoy, King Ferdinand of Aragon, sent a jeweled tiara for his newest granddaughter. The French ambassador dropped hints that King Louis was considering an English match should Queen Anne give birth to a boy in October of that year [6]

Princess Elizabeth was scarcely a month-old when her mother fell pregnant again in early April. And although, King Henry and Queen Katherine still doted on her, they both prayed that it would be a son this time [7].

1. His sapphire, his pearl and his emerald.

2. Copying Elizabeth's christening with the exception of the Archbishop Canterbury as I doubt King Henry wants Warham being his daughter's godfather.

3. The Earl of Surrey is Anne Boleyn and Catherine Howard's grandfather. He has not gained back his titles yet.

4. So I used two of Mary's godmothers. I don't know if Anges Howard's husband was Mary's godfather, but I figured it wouldn't be out of the ordinary for couples to be chosen as godparents. I am also assuming the reason that Henry didn't choose Charles or Mary as Princess Mary's godparents in RL, is because he was still a bit mad at them. Regardless, I figured he choose them this time.

5. Considering Maria's deep loyalty to Catherine, I am actually surprised that she was not chosen as a godmother. She came from Spain with Catherine and remained with her for her entire life. Maria even disobeyed the king to be with her when she died.

6. Princess Renee of France will be born in October 1510 as she was in history.

7. Just in case, you thought that I would be writing Henry completely OOC. Henry is right now just riding high on the whole being King of England, marrying the woman of his dreams that as long as his firstborn was healthy, he honestly didn't care about the gender. Of course, had the next baby not been a son then his shine to his daughter would have quickly worn off.
 
Last edited:
It could be after the virgin mary. maybe catherine had a difficult pregnancy and they made a vow that if the child was born healthy and Catherine survived, they would name it mary if it was a girl.
Henry's favorite sister was Mary. Catherine of Aragon was very close to her sister-in-law Mary as well, so it makes sense. In fact, Mary very publicly sided with Catherine when Henry tried to annul their marriage, and Mary refused to come to court while Anne Boleyn was there.
 
She made his shirts for over 20 years.
Yes, that was the model of wifely devotion at that time. Her mother Isabella also made shirts for Ferdinand and other noblewomen and queens also did clothes for their spouses. Catherine served as regent, kicked the scots asses harder than anyone since Edward III had done, was her husbands advisor in the early years and encouraged learning and other things for women. Housewife my foot.
 
Arthur really isn't that bad of a name for a son of Henry and Catherine, and it was very common for people in this day and age to name their children after the person who had been heir before them (whether that be their brother, uncle, etc)... Also, Catherine is in no way the stereotype of a 50s housewife. Yes, she didn't go around hating men and burning bras, yet much of what she did can be said to have been empowering in some shape or form. As for the shirts thing, it may be hard to believe today, but people back then also did things as a symbol of affection and devotion to their spouses. Also, it was far from an unequal gesture, as before their marriage started to sour Henry dedicated his performance in jousts to Catherine.
 
Arthur really isn't that bad of a name for a son of Henry and Catherine, and it was very common for people in this day and age to name their children after the person who had been heir before them (whether that be their brother, uncle, etc)...
Agreed, especially one as far back in the line of succession as a Duke of Somerset, even if Henry felt overshadowed by Arthur I doubt that would be enough to make the name an absolute no go for a third son.
 
Plus with four healthy and living sons, Catherine is ten feet tall and bulletproof and Woolsey's influence over Henry just got diminished because Catherine is keeping and elevating her standing in his eyes.
 
i think the Tudors saw Arthur as a name fit only for a future king...so if one of Henry and Katherine’s sons is going to be Arthur then it should be the Prince of Wales.
 
Top