What would the post war era look like for a Neutral or Allied Fascist Italy?

[lukedalton]

Abyssinia and Somalia are neither worth be kept and frankly it will be a continuous bleed of resources and men...it will be that the will breack Fascist hold on power; said that Eritrea can be kept (if given a dominion like status) or make it a puppet, basically they hate the ethiopians much more than the italians.

Lybia, sorry arab independent wave or not it will remain italian, too little local population, too important due to oil and strategic position, it will be assimilated and it's more probable a Irish trouble-like situation

 

[ImperialxWarlord]

It could be described as more of a Fourth Bloc that is a right-leaning yet anti-communist analogue of the Non-Aligned Movement / NAM, yet otherwise independent or attempts to be as such from the Western Bloc. Similar to how the Non-Aligned Movement in OTL for all its claims of being independent, at times moved closer to the Soviet camp once the movement decided in 1972 to award representation both to the exiled Sihanouk, who lived in Communist China and was allied to Pol Pot's Khmer Rouge, and to the Communist insurgents in South Vietnam (and other instances of NAM ties to the Soviet camp during the Cold War).

Perhaps both the Right-leaning Anti-Communist Bloc (RLAC or RAC?) as well as the Non-Aligned Movement would be considered sub-groups of the Western and Soviet/Eastern Bloc rather than independent Blocs in this scenario?

Another variation would be France and Italy heading a Southern Europe / Mediterranean Europe Bloc of nations (as opposed to Northern Europe).

Though it is doubtful, would have to wonder the likelihood of there being some sort of rapprochement between ATL Italy and Greece during the Cold War.

Brought up Taiwan (or ROC) on the basis of how since 1949 and even after its expulsion from the UN in 1971, it has lost international recognition over the past few years in OTL and maybe an admission to such a Bloc would be able to delay its loss of recognition to some extent in ATL based on its Right-leaning Anti-Communist stance.

I just find the idea that they’d be so independent to be unlikely. At least to the point of heading their own block. In the post war world where they joined the allies I can’t imagine that they’d not be part of NATO and the western sphere of influence. I think like France they’d off be independent but not so far as to form their own club.

As for Taiwan their existence is basically only guaranteed because the US and Co protects it. That’s why it wasn’t swallowed up by the Commies. I can see them being very close with Italy though, as such an anti communist nation would probably be one of the last to recognize the PRC if Italy is still fascist in thr 70s and 80s. Hell, wouldn’t be surprised that even if they did recognize the PRC eventually they’d still recognize the ROC in some capacity.

 

[ImperialxWarlord]

Abyssinia and Somalia are neither worth be kept and frankly it will be a continuous bleed of resources and men...it will be that the will breack Fascist hold on power; said that Eritrea can be kept (if given a dominion like status) or make it a puppet, basically they hate the ethiopians much more than the italians.

Lybia, sorry arab independent wave or not it will remain italian, too little local population, too important due to oil and strategic position, it will be assimilated and it's more probable a Irish trouble-like situation

I feel like it wouldn’t be long before Italy abandoned Ethiopia, if not during the war to bring men back home to fight them shortly after. Never knew Eritrea they hated etheopia more than Italy.

Yeah I feel the same about Libya.

 

[lukedalton]

I feel like it wouldn’t be long before Italy abandoned Ethiopia, if not during the war to bring men back home to fight them shortly after. Never knew Eritrea they hated etheopia more than Italy.

Different ethnic group, different religion, history of raid, etc. etc. in OTL Ethiopia was united to Eritrea only due to the allies needing to 'reward' the first and basically with the promise of a real federation between the two part...promise that was almost immediately broken by the goverment of Addis Abeba

 

[brunohusker]

How would the Fascist ideology and movement look like as a whole after WW2? This is in the event of WW2 in the event Italy is in the Allied Powers. That and I could see the rise of Fascist movements with Fascism being legitimized as the ideology that helped beat the Nazis, and the Fascists try to emphasize a difference between "Sane and Moderate" Fascism and the "Insane and Hardcore" Nazism.

For Spain, I could see Francoist Spain maintain its Falangist, Fascist and National-Syndicalist policies, unlike OTL in which Francoist Spain basically "abandoned" Fascism, sidelined the Falangists, and turned to Authoritarian National Conservative. Also I imagine Austria being an Italian buffer, with the Italian-sponsored Austrofascists being brought back to power in Austria.

This sounds intriguing. You also might see devout Catholics tie themselves with fascism around the world, especially if they try to wash out the stench of hitlerism successfully. Granted does that mean parts of the west are less democratic?

 

[Kingfish Chris]

This sounds intriguing. You also might see devout Catholics tie themselves with fascism around the world, especially if they try to wash out the stench of hitlerism successfully. Granted does that mean parts of the west are less democratic?

Most likely you have Fascist movements existing not being targeted or looked down on. That said, I can imagine that if Fascist Italy is in WW2, especially joining the Allies quite early in the war, I can see Fascist movements in occupied Europe join the resistance groups.
Heck I can imagine the French Fascists like the Francistes (Sponsored and backed by Italy, as well took inspiration from Mussolini's ideology) and Joseph Darnand (A Fascist Paramilitary leader of the Milice with apparent Anti-German views, although he did eventually give in and join the SS) joining the Resistance, and they were pretty anti-German prior to occupation before ironically going 180 - becoming Pro-German and collaborating.

 

[Masked Grizzly]

It is easy to imagine the ATL Fascist movements distancing themselves from Nazism, what if the Italians for whatever reason also opted to rename their movement after Giovanni Gentile (the self-styled "philosopher of Fascism") aka Gentilism?

 

[Eivind]

Italy can keep Libya quiet easily.

Wouldn´t Libya become "Italy´s Algeria"?

 

[Wendell]

If Italy stays fascist and works to assimilate the Muslim Association of the Lictor fully into the party leadership and we end up with Qadhafi ruling Italy....

 

[Lalli]

Wouldn´t Libya become "Italy´s Algeria"?

Libya has even still nowadays really low population compared to Italian one. And fascist Italy would had italised the place and it would had been even more willingful to keep Libya if Libyans wouldhad ever decide rise against them.

 

[Lee-Sensei]

If Italy stays fascist and works to assimilate the Muslim Association of the Lictor fully into the party leadership and we end up with Qadhafi ruling Italy....

In a scenario where Libya stays part of Italy, I always imagined that he’d end up being an insurgent.

 

[Lee-Sensei]

I just find the idea that they’d be so independent to be unlikely. At least to the point of heading their own block. In the post war world where they joined the allies I can’t imagine that they’d not be part of NATO and the western sphere of influence. I think like France they’d off be independent but not so far as to form their own club.

As for Taiwan their existence is basically only guaranteed because the US and Co protects it. That’s why it wasn’t swallowed up by the Commies. I can see them being very close with Italy though, as such an anti communist nation would probably be one of the last to recognize the PRC if Italy is still fascist in thr 70s and 80s. Hell, wouldn’t be surprised that even if they did recognize the PRC eventually they’d still recognize the ROC in some capacity.

Most people would say that Russia operates independently of the United States, and they have an economy currently smaller than France, Britain and Italy. Germany’s economy is twice as large. I do think Italy would lean towards the United States, but I don’t think it would be entirely in America’s sphere.

 

[ImperialxWarlord]

Most people would say that Russia operates independently of the United States, and they have an economy currently smaller than France, Britain and Italy. Germany’s economy is twice as large. I do think Italy would lean towards the United States, but I don’t think it would be entirely in America’s sphere.

Using Russia as an example isn’t really relevant because while smaller economically it’s never been very tried to us like that and has yah know been in the opposite corner to some degree for most of the last 100 years. And despite its smaller economy wields far more international power. I think they would be in the US’s sphere but more like France as they would sometimes be do their own thing and maybe even but heads with the US.

 

[Lee-Sensei]

Using Russia as an example isn’t really relevant because while smaller economically it’s never been very tried to us like that and has yah know been in the opposite corner to some degree for most of the last 100 years. And despite its smaller economy wields far more international power. I think they would be in the US’s sphere but more like France as they would sometimes be do their own thing and maybe even but heads with the US.

More international power than Germany? I’m not sure about that at all.

 

[ImperialxWarlord]

More international power than Germany? I’m not sure about that at all.

Yeah. I don’t recall Germany sending troops to Syria or the Ukraine, having a seat on the UN Security Council, being known for a large intelligence apparatus that has fingers in lots of pies, having one of the largest and most capable armies, or being called a great power. German has economic influence but it doesn’t have the same power. And Russia is only growing seeing as how it’s slowly building up its on EU which will be the USSR lite if successful.

 

[Lee-Sensei]

Yeah. I don’t recall Germany sending troops to Syria or the Ukraine, having a seat on the UN Security Council, being known for a large intelligence apparatus that has fingers in lots of pies, having one of the largest and most capable armies, or being called a great power. German has economic influence but it doesn’t have the same power. And Russia is only growing seeing as how it’s slowly building up its on EU which will be the USSR lite if successful.

They don’t have too. Economic strength is far more important than military strength in the 21st century. Germany isn’t on the security Council, because they lost a war and were divided in 1945. They had a seat on the LoN Council. And many people call Germany a Great Power. They currently have the 4th largest economy in the world.

 

[ImperialxWarlord]

They don’t have too. Economic strength is far more important than military strength in the 21st century. Germany isn’t on the security Council, because they lost a war and were divided in 1945. They had a seat on the LoN Council. And many people call Germany a Great Power. They currently have the 4th largest economy in the world.

Maybe I’m not reading enough news but I don’t recall the last time Germany used its economic might to influence world events. Russia does. Regardless, we’re off track.

 

[marathag]

Brought up Taiwan (or ROC) on the basis of how since 1949 and even after its expulsion from the UN in 1971,

With Italy neutral, would they keep the Concession of Tientsin and bits of Shanghai?
I say this, as with Italy neutral, they still would support the KMT with the defeat of Japan, and possibly far more than the USA during the Civil War

 

[Kingfish Chris]

Speaking of post-war politics abroad, with the possibility of Fascist movements joining or forming Resistance movements (Bonus if Fascist Italy joins the war early). I can imagine in the case of France, the Fascists (Those who joined the Resistance and Free French Army) end up working with the Gaullists, kind of like how the Communists helped form the government of the French Fourth Republic.

That said there were plenty of Fascists who joined the Resistance or were involved in Anti-German efforts:

• Jacques Arthuys (A Fascist intellectual who would get involved in the Resistance. But he would eventually die in a Concentration Camp.)
• Andre Bettencourt ( Was a member of the Fascist La Cagoule, would eventually join the Resistance. He would serve under De Gaulle's government.)
• Georges Loustaunau-Lacau (A member of the Fascist La Cagoule, and involved in the French Far-Right. He would join the Resistance, but would get in trouble and would eventually escape a Concentration Camp. After the war he was also involved in the Fourth Republic serving in the National Assembly.)
• Gabriel Jeantet (He was a Fascist who held National Syndicalist beliefs, initially supportive of the Germans, he eventually became disillusioned when the Germans were clamping down on Vichy autonomy, he would contact the Resistance as a result. After the war he would ironically get involved in France's Far-Right and Neo-Fascist politics.)

Then there are these guys, they did hold anti-German views initially, but they would end up joining them. However, with Italy in the allies, I can see this change, given the circumstances especially since these guys were inspired by Mussolinian Fascism.

• Marcel Bucard (A Fascist Leader of the Francistes who took inspiration and backing from Fascist Italy. His party did have an early platform of Anti-German sentiments, but would eventually collaborate the following occupation.)
• Joseph Darnand (A Fascist Paramilitary Leader who led the notorious Milice, he was a staunch Anti-German during the interwar period as a result of his experience in the Trenches of WW1, although he flip-flopped to being a collaborator despite his earlier conviction.)

 

[Lee-Sensei]

Maybe I’m not reading enough news but I don’t recall the last time Germany used its economic might to influence world events. Russia does. Regardless, we’re off track.

I don’t think it’s off topic at all. Germany dominates the EU. It’s the third largest exporter in the world after China and the U.S. Russia is 16th. Getting back to whether they’d act independently or not, let’s look at the 1973 oil crisis. As punishment for the countries that were believed to have supported Israel in the Yom Kippur war, the Arab states lead by Saudi Arabia implemented an oil embargo. By the end, the price of oil had risen by around 300% and plunging most Western countries into a deep recession. Italy in this scenario, is sitting on Libya. Libya has significantly more oil than Nigeria or the U.S. and by far the largest reserves on the African continent. They’re also right in the heart of Europe.