Like it says on the tin. Suppose that Hong Xiuquan passes the imperial Chinese examinations the first time (instead of trying four times and failing), and becomes a scholar-bureaucrat who holds an administrative post somewhere in Guangdong. This means he's not insane (or is at least less so than OTL) and has genuine experience as an administrator, diminishing the internal divisions in the Taiping ranks that led to the Tianjing Incident IOTL. Thus, by 1850s (or 60s at the latest) the Heavenly kingdom takes control of Beijing and effectively ends the Qing dynasty.

So the question is, what would China look like in this scenario, culturally, economically and politically speaking? Would Manchuria, Xinjiang, Mongolia and Tibet become independent from China proper, or would those territories eventually be brought back into the fold by the Taiping government?
 
All About My Brother is a great Taiping timeline if you haven’t read it yet. Hong is still insane, but his subordinates place him under glorified house arrest while they have the real power. However, the Qing dynasty still survives in the north, and both sides eventually accept the division of China for the time being. One important change is that the Taiping state becomes more conciliatory to the Confucian bureaucrats that form the backbone of everyday governance, creating a syncretic form of “Confucian Christianity” that’s basically whatever they need it to be. However, there are several different factions that rule at various times, and they’re all pretty interesting in their own way.
 
All About My Brother is a great Taiping timeline if you haven’t read it yet. Hong is still insane, but his subordinates place him under glorified house arrest while they have the real power. However, the Qing dynasty still survives in the north, and both sides eventually accept the division of China for the time being. One important change is that the Taiping state becomes more conciliatory to the Confucian bureaucrats that form the backbone of everyday governance, creating a syncretic form of “Confucian Christianity” that’s basically whatever they need it to be. However, there are several different factions that rule at various times, and they’re all pretty interesting in their own way.
Loved this one, it was really interesting and gave me several new alternative ideologies for my growing list post.
 
Sorry for self-promotion, but I wrote a TL about this premise named Spring and Autumn of the Heavenly Kingdom, which is linked in my signature. The POD is that Hong Xiuquan passed the imperial exam, then went on to become a scholar-bureaucrat before resigning, having his vision about God and moving to Hong Kong to study the Bible. He would be exposed to Western philosophy and culture, making him much less fanatical than OTL.
 
Its main challenges are actually holding the country together and keeping the foreigners at bay, China at the time was a largely dysfunctional state with atrophied bureaucracy (basically no magistrate below county level), civil unrest was rampant and dissent wasn't really unified, meaninging anti-Manchuism can only get you so far, and you have people like Zeng Guafan selling Taiping resistence was a war in defense of Confuncian civilization, and the Taiping being very Hakka had a strong opposition in the provinces of Guangdong and Fujian, can Hong & cia solve all of this? Difficult. Plus with the British (and now the French, Americans and Russians) also interested? Extra hard.

Also note that from its birth as a revolt in Guangxi the Taiping were never really an unified bunch, you could get the warlord era 50 years earlier.
 
Its main challenges are actually holding the country together and keeping the foreigners at bay, China at the time was a largely dysfunctional state with atrophied bureaucracy (basically no magistrate below county level), civil unrest was rampant and dissent wasn't really unified, meaninging anti-Manchuism can only get you so far, and you have people like Zeng Guafan selling Taiping resistence was a war in defense of Confuncian civilization, and the Taiping being very Hakka had a strong opposition in the provinces of Guangdong and Fujian, can Hong & cia solve all of this? Difficult. Plus with the British (and now the French, Americans and Russians) also interested? Extra hard.

Also note that from its birth as a revolt in Guangxi the Taiping were never really an unified bunch, you could get the warlord era 50 years earlier.

A scenario where they take Shanghai and/or Beijing by the mid-1850s- prior to the outbreak of the Second Opium War- and are established as the de facto government with the Qing off the board entirely or kicked back to Manchuria, would probably help here.

It would also help if they're more moderate than OTL, which sane Hong might facilitate (though I have... some scepticism about the co-existence of a movement that is meaningfully the Taiping and a sane Hong, but regardless) - whether that be that he has the same beliefs as OTL but is better at dissimulating or (outwardly) compromising, that he's actually semi-interested in or capable of exercising political power (which I agree that some experience as a scholar-bureaucrat would help with, per the OP), that he's a more conventional Christian who has a better time buddying up to the west, or even just a standard Chinese rebel leader minus all the pseudo-Christian bells and whistles (though these last few fall into the 'not really Taiping anymore' basket for me).

I think, in general, the Taiping will be having a hard enough time holding on to the core Chinese territories that a lot of the other rebellions build up enough steam to spin off. By the time the Taiping have consolidated enough to look at reincorporating them they've probably fallen into the sphere of influence of one of the European powers- residual Qing in Manchuria (Russia?), Muslims in Yunnan (French or British?), Muslims in the NW (Russia or Britain? Many Great Game shenanigans to be had). Possibly the Miao are an exception - can see them getting ground down given their proximity to the Taiping homelands in Guangxi/Guangdong.
 
I have been working on a TL where China (and also Japan) is partitioned between the European powers, what would a map of this bigger Russian annexation of Outer Manchuria look like? however, in my TL they do not annex all of Manchuria, and simply reduce the rest to a puppet protectorate.
In that case, I suspect the border might be at the Luan River and running through the Gobi desert with them also having all of Xinjiang, with a Chinese puppet to the south and west which is de-facto-Russian-controlled.
And that is why the Tsar learned Chinese, to speak with his subjects
Korea would be Russian colony or Russian-annexed. Something like Hokkaido+Tohoku+parts of Kanto and Chubu would or could be Russian I guess. They certainly would have at least Hokkaido.
 
In that case, I suspect the border might be at the Luan River and running through the Gobi desert with them also having all of Xinjiang, with a Chinese puppet to the south and west which is de-facto-Russian-controlled.
And that is why the Tsar learned Chinese, to speak with his subjects
Korea would be Russian colony or Russian-annexed. Something like Hokkaido+Tohoku+parts of Kanto and Chubu would or could be Russian I guess. They certainly would have at least Hokkaido.
This was my take on the situation:
colonizedeastasia-png.812615

I do not want to distract the topic from OP's thread so here is my thread where I am requesting critiques and ideas for the scenario/map.
 
Like it says on the tin. Suppose that Hong Xiuquan passes the imperial Chinese examinations the first time (instead of trying four times and failing), and becomes a scholar-bureaucrat who holds an administrative post somewhere in Guangdong. This means he's not insane (or is at least less so than OTL) and has genuine experience as an administrator,
In which case, he does not get involved in the local syncretic Christianity scene in his local area or take it over and turn it in the direction he did. Literally zero chance.

Edit: and to be clear, there was a cottage industry in China of local Protestant converts going among the heathen masses to convert them and ending up with weird heresies that no self-respecting Christian would call Christianity, but Hong Xiuquan was something special in that he had more luck than most, he gathered a cadre of somewhat talented lieutenants around him early on, he preached an extra-militant religion, and the local provincial authorities were not up to the task of quickly snuffing him out. Without Hong Xiuquan, it's definitely possible that someone else could've done something similar, but it's very unlikely.

For context, the whole "visions from God" thing was part of a psychotic breakdown that happened to Hong Xiuquan because of the stress of taking the exam and failing yet again. This isn't just an entrance exam into government life: it's also the ticket to entry into the gentry class and the privileges thereof. It is basically the end-all be-all of being a somebody in China. People studied (and ran up huge debts) for decades for this opportunity and it was considered normal for someone to only pass the first exam in their thirties. When you passed your first test, you functionally had a window of about thirty years in which to either stay in your area and establish as many connections and bribery networks as you could(*) or else to climb the career ladder as far as possible(**). And of course, as soon as you got into office, your first order of business would be to recoup your family's investment in your future and clear that massive debt you probably incurred during your tutoring.

Even then, there were huge masses of people who never passed a single exam in their life despite decades of hard work and dedication, and who were basically relegated to auxiliary work at the local level.(***) The passing quota for the imperial exams was kept artificially low by the government and everybody recognized that it was as much about being a perfect student as about luck of the draw or connections/bribing the examiner to pass. You could 100% on everything and you still might not pass because there are just too many students and not enough positions. The first exam was the really difficult part, because that was where hundreds of thousands of people showed up every year to compete for a few tens of thousands of jobs. After that, your competition was restricted to your fellow officials, not all of whom were interested in rising up the ranks. Many of them would in fact be more concerned with protecting their family's interests in their home province.

You start to see the problem here: if Hong Xiuquan passes, all the stresses in his life that culminated in the psychotic breakdown don't happen and he's basically guaranteed to become yet another unexceptional low-rung official. Then again, maybe there's a timeline in which he rises up the ranks and becomes a viceroy or something like that.

(*): because lower-level government salaries and budgets were chronically low, especially once inflation really started rearing its head in the 1790s and 1820s, so people were forced to engage in graft and bribery just to ensure a comfortable life for themselves on the one hand while keeping a balanced budget on the other. Most of your power as an official came not from your title's authority, but from the local gentry families you'd developed relationships with and whom you could count on to provide cheap labor for the state in exchange for bribes or favors.
(**): where the salaries were better.
(***): like tutoring for families trying to get their sons into the government
diminishing the internal divisions in the Taiping ranks that led to the Tianjing Incident IOTL. Thus, by 1850s (or 60s at the latest) the Heavenly kingdom takes control of Beijing and effectively ends the Qing dynasty.
No Taiping, for one. If he becomes an official, he probably never meets the proto-Taiping in the first place. He certainly doesn't take up with them because they are a much less profitable endeavor than a career in government would be. Which means that the proto-Taiping probably remain a fringe cult on the margins of society, just like Anton Drexler's DAP was before Hitler came along and turned it into the NSDAP.
So the question is, what would China look like in this scenario, culturally, economically and politically speaking? Would Manchuria, Xinjiang, Mongolia and Tibet become independent from China proper, or would those territories eventually be brought back into the fold by the Taiping government?
Immeasurably better off, especially if Cixi doesn't come to power either.

Taiping was one of many rebellions in the 1850s, but it was the largest and its size allowed the other rebellions to stick around for far longer than they should have while the government was busy trying to deal with it. As it was, Taiping basically gutted the entire Yangtze river valley, both because of its incredibly brutal and genocidal tactics toward anyone who didn't conform loudly enough to its ideology and because of the government's typically Confucian response to the rebellion.

I say "typically Confucian", because that's what it was. According to Confucian ideology, if a family member does a crime, his family is actually obliged to protect him from the government. From a citizen's POV, this is surprisingly based. From the government's POV, this means that literally everyone in the family of a rebel is just as culpable as the rebel, because it is their obligation to give aid to him and to seek revenge for him if he is executed. So when the government cracked down on rebels, it basically amounted to a genocide every time.(*) And because the troops were also shittily-paid, they also had a tendency to loot and plunder everything around them and make the rebellion worse.

All this means that the suppression of the Taiping + all the other rebellions basically amounted to a giant back-and-forth between three or four different armies of bandits over the same area who absolutely trashed it by the end. Much of China was in a state of economic collapse after the rebellions were over. The shorter the rebellion is, the better.

(*): and yes, there is a direct link between this and what the Taiping did to areas they conquered. It was a product of shared cultural underpinnings.
(**) which wasn't helped by the fact that Cixi's government doled out little money for reconstruction efforts and basically left provincial governors to deal with the aftermath on their own because she was an exceptional greedy and corrupt cunt whose main interest was sucking the government dry in order to satisfy her cronies and keep her arse in power, and damn the national interest! CIXI DELENDA EST
He would be exposed to Western philosophy and culture, making him much less fanatical than OTL.
In which case, he would be an actual fucking Christian and wouldn't have done anything he did IOTL. End of story.
 
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You start to see the problem here: if Hong Xiuquan passes, all the stresses in his life that culminated in the psychotic breakdown don't happen and he's basically guaranteed to become yet another unexceptional low-rung official. Then again, maybe there's a timeline in which he rises up the ranks and becomes a viceroy or something like that.
There's a now long dead TL called The Graduate where he had his breakdown due to PTSD from fighting random rebels one time too many. Could that happen ITTL?
 
There's a now long dead TL called The Graduate where he had his breakdown due to PTSD from fighting random rebels one time too many. Could that happen ITTL?
Interesting premise, but highly unlikely. It just seems like parallelism for the sake of parallelism, divorcing the historical outcome from its surroundings and grafting it onto a different set of surroundings.

OTOH, since he was from Guangdong and he was Hakka, he would definitely have a personal interest in the Hakka-Punti wars going on at the time, so he'd definitely have had his fair share of excitement in the 1850s.
 
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Ultimately, I think that if he does go insane after becoming a government official, he'll probably just quietly spread his beliefs and their impact today would be that some New Age religions trace their origins back to a religious group he started, or that some religious group in China hold him to be one of their prophets, or that his diaries were used by later historians as a primary source for the time period and that's why we know about him.

His religion might even become popular after his death, but probably not during his lifetime.

Edit: maybe he'd become the 19th century equivalent of Falun Gong.(1,2)

(1)
(2)
 
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I know All About My Brother addresses this POD, but that timeline is very old and I'd like to start a new discussion about it.

What would've happened to the Heavenly Kingdom had Yang Xiuqing prevailed in the Tianjing Incident? The event as a whole is usually seen as the turning point of the Taiping Rebellion, given the chaos it generated among the rebels.
 
What would've happened to the Heavenly Kingdom had Yang Xiuqing prevailed in the Tianjing Incident? The event as a whole is usually seen as the turning point of the Taiping Rebellion, given the chaos it generated among the rebels.

I think a lot turns on how effectively he’s able to consolidate power and build legitimacy in the aftermath - it seems unlikely he’d be able to clamp down on all the supporters of people who’ve lost out in the struggle and all the kings he’d made enemies of by marginalising or humiliating. Seems like that’d be fertile ground for defections- either to the Qing (as Wei Jun did IOTL) or just off to do their own thing (like Shi Dakai IOTL).

But if (and it is a big if) he’s able to weather that initial storm you potentially get a Rebellion with more active/energetic/decisive executive leadership. Of course a smoother way of doing this would be just having Hong die at an earlier point in the Rebellion and having Yang assume leadership without a complete bloodbath.
 
I think a lot turns on how effectively he’s able to consolidate power and build legitimacy in the aftermath - it seems unlikely he’d be able to clamp down on all the supporters of people who’ve lost out in the struggle and all the kings he’d made enemies of by marginalising or humiliating. Seems like that’d be fertile ground for defections- either to the Qing (as Wei Jun did IOTL) or just off to do their own thing (like Shi Dakai IOTL).

But if (and it is a big if) he’s able to weather that initial storm you potentially get a Rebellion with more active/energetic/decisive executive leadership. Of course a smoother way of doing this would be just having Hong die at an earlier point in the Rebellion and having Yang assume leadership without a complete bloodbath.
I've only read Wikipedia so far, but it seems Yang was more pragmatic than Hong, which, if true, could make wonders for the rebellion's potential to succeed.
 
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