What if the Japanese had brought an invasion force to take Hawaii after Pearl Harbor?
- Thread starter Cdoug96
- Start date
We're I not so busy I could post links two three or four discussions on the same subject. Or maybe I am lazy.
nbcman
Donor
The Japanese would have been butchered. The US Army garrison of Oahu in April 1941 was over 30,000 and was further increased through the course of 1941 to over 40,000. Not to mention the numerous coastal defense artillery locations that were designed for such an occasion as well as Marine and other defenders.
Older Discussion: https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...-is-done-with-maximal-foresight.384637/page-5
https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/does-japan-have-any-chance-of-winning-in-ww2.395688/
https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/japanese-tide.156583/
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Logistics and keeping a fleet in being near Hawaii to try to hold and occupy whatever Imperial Japan tries to invade in that island chain.
If you keep an Imperial Fleet near Hawaii just beyond IJN's ability to maintain a logistical chain..
You'll have to sacrifice invading a specific region in the South Pacific or South East Pacific in order to continue invading Hawaii and maintain a presence there....
You'll probably have to not invade the Philippines Island in order to have the Supply Ships, Tankers and troop transports available to keep the six Carriers near Hawaii to maintain CAP and air support for their Invasion Fleet....
If you keep an Imperial Fleet near Hawaii just beyond IJN's ability to maintain a logistical chain..
You'll have to sacrifice invading a specific region in the South Pacific or South East Pacific in order to continue invading Hawaii and maintain a presence there....
You'll probably have to not invade the Philippines Island in order to have the Supply Ships, Tankers and troop transports available to keep the six Carriers near Hawaii to maintain CAP and air support for their Invasion Fleet....
One proponent developed a complex plan that involved initial capture of a adjacent island, and rotating multiple Japanese task force's to the Marshal islands to replenish. Precision bombardment by Japanese battleships was a key part of the plan.
I am assuming that that they would have known that and brought an appropriate force for the job. I am thinking they would have brought an Army Corp of about 50,000 men, and perhaps they would be able to send an entire Army Group. Don't forget that they also would have Admiral Yamamoto's attack force for support.
If I was in command of the invasion force I would want to land just as the first wave hit Pearl Harbor for maximum surprise and chaos. Preferably right on the beaches of Honolulu at Waikiki Beach.
http://acepilots.com/travel/waikiki.png
http://acepilots.com/travel/waikiki.png
The IJA and IJN were not on good terms to put it mildly. They were less cooperating military branches and more hostile opposing forces who hadn't shot at each other. Getting the IJA to support the latest harebrained scheme of the IJN (or the other way around isn't happening.)
Setting that aside, 50,000 invaders barely outnumbers the defending force of 45,000 who have the weapons and capacity to defend in depth (yes, the island is big enough) and can't be outflanked (island is just small enough to prevent it).
Furthermore, even the OTL Pearl Harbor attack strained Japan's logistics by a fair margin. If the fleet stays they will have to abandon smaller ships on the way home.
And setting all that aside, an invasion of Hawaii means the southern thrust fails. It will have to take place with fewer troops, fewer transports, and little naval support.
One of the impressive aspects of the Japanese campaign was achieving much with very little. As I understand it is argued fairly convincingly that the shipping capacity was lacking. So in order to carry out the landings (I assume you are thinking they would take place in Dec 1941 after the air attacks), there must be the additional commitment of more battleships to deal with the coastal guns and the invasion fleet itself.
With Pearl Harbor the main target it is harder to see where the shipping for the Malaya landings comes from and indeed what is used to land on the Philippines. Thus Japan probably has to give up on two key early targets, they probably also need 2 divisions plus significant other assets for the invasion which again implies cancellation of other projects.
The issue then becomes why is Japan at war, is to acquire Pearl Harbor or are they looking to seize oil. If the later their interests are not served by delaying the conquest of the oil fields. Seizing Pearl Harbor carries the risk of failure of more important parts of the venture, which I think makes it poor choice for Japan.
So invading Hawaii means what invasion is cancelled? Malaya? The Philippines? Guam? Wake? There aren't enough troops or transports so something else has to go...
Not to mention the logistical problems, the fact the invasion force will be outnumbered and that Kido Butai will have to stick around to cover the invasion without enough oil, gasoline or munitions to do so for long...
Not to mention the logistical problems, the fact the invasion force will be outnumbered and that Kido Butai will have to stick around to cover the invasion without enough oil, gasoline or munitions to do so for long...
nbcman
Donor
Good luck with having a secret invasion fleet of slow transports sailing up to one of the most defended naval bases in the world. BTW the Carrier fleet was to the north hundreds of nautical miles away from Waikiki beach.
Extracted from this page:
Fort DeRussy
Fort DeRussy was located adjacent to Honolulu, on a portion of Waikiki Beach.[1] The large caliber guns are mounted to disappearing carriages that use the recoil to lower the gun from the parapet to the loading platform. The allows the reloading crew a work area protected from shells fired by off-shore ships. The Anti Motor Torpedo Boat (ATMB) battery protected the close-in area around the fort from attack by high-speed motor torpedo boats.
- Battery Randolph had two 14 in (355.60 mm) rifles mounted on disappearing carriage.
- Battery Dudley had two 6 in (152.40 mm) rifles mounted on disappearing carriage.
- AMTB Battery No. 5 had two 90 mm (3.54 in) multi-purpose guns, each mounted on a separate fixed pedestal carriage
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No.
Here are some major reasons why they didn't invade Hawaii.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eve...rbor#Concept_of_a_Japanese_invasion_of_Hawaii
Here are some major reasons why they didn't invade Hawaii.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eve...rbor#Concept_of_a_Japanese_invasion_of_Hawaii
I think that Japan should have taken Hawaii or at least tried to take Hawaii because the biggest threat was America once she was in the war and they could afford to take an army Corp or group from China which would have been relatively safe because even if China destroyed the Japanese forces there they would not be able to launch an assault on the Japanese home islands, unlike the US would have done if not for the nukes. Also the only way for Japan to win in the Pacific would be to force a peace with the US and taking Hawaii might be enough to shock the US to the negotiation table. The alternative is defeat like what historically happened. The biggest problem I see is getting the IJA to work with the IJN.
Pretty sure those have been brought up. Genda's 15,000 men estimate is always good for a laugh though.
An invasion of Hawaii is doomed, and its failure (or even an attempt) means Japan doesn't have the resources for their invasion of the southern Pacific.
The commander who says not invading Hawaii was a mistake is wrong. Just because what they didn't work doesn't mean a worse idea will.
nbcman
Donor
If you were aware of the reasons why the Japanese didn't invade Hawaii in conjunction with the PH attack, why did you ask the question in the OP? Or why didn't you phrase the OP differently and describe the changes to the OTL Japanese forces to allow for some type of an invasion of Hawaii?
For example, galveston bay set up his timeline with changes to the Japanese forces like so:
https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...ecember-7-10-1941.404816/page-2#post-13747324
I had assumed that the invasion like the attack would have been planned months ahead of time to allow for a successful invasion, and that the needed forces would have been requisitioned around that time also to allow for the possible need to train more troops and/or build more ships. (The attack was planned in early 1941)
I guess what I was asking was what would happen if Japan has invaded Hawaii with force large enough to take it. How long could America hold out and can they hold long enough for reinforcements to arrive?
Also I am new to posting things so I was bound to make mistakes. I am going to put the revised question in a new thread.
Also I am new to posting things so I was bound to make mistakes. I am going to put the revised question in a new thread.
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