Wars of the Roses, Edward V and Prince Richard survive?

[John Fredrick Parker]

Katherine of Aragon is not marrying a second son....

Agreed.

OK, I'll just delete the marriage for now; given how far she is in the line of succession, and an absence of any available major princes to change history with, I doubt it'd make much difference one way or the other.

 

[BlueFlowwer]

Would it not be better for Catherine of York to get a papal dispensation to wed male Catherine of Aragon after Juan's death? She might have to wait a couple of years for Ferdinand to get old enough to consummate the marriage, but unless she starved herself, I can't see much harm in her being the princess of Asturias in waiting for a little while.

 

[happy35]

Would it not be better for Catherine of York to get a papal dispensation to wed male Catherine of Aragon after Juan's death? She might have to wait a couple of years for Ferdinand to get old enough to consummate the marriage, but unless she starved herself, I can't see much harm in her being the princess of Asturias in waiting for a little while.

I thought it was decided to keep Catherine of Aragon a female ITTL? Not that what you’re saying is a bad idea, it’s a great idea, but it seems @John Fredrick Parker wants a Iberian union between Portugal and Spain through the older daughter Isabella. There was just some suggestions that maybe a marriage between a son of Isabella and a posthumous daughter from Catherine of York could make that happen.

 

[ordinarylittleme]

Would it not be better for Catherine of York to get a papal dispensation to wed male Catherine of Aragon after Juan's death? She might have to wait a couple of years for Ferdinand to get old enough to consummate the marriage, but unless she starved herself, I can't see much harm in her being the princess of Asturias in waiting for a little while.

I thought we were having Juan's posthumous alt-daughter survive and marrying alt-Miguel

 

[BlueFlowwer]

I thought it was decided to keep Catherine of Aragon a female ITTL? Not that what you’re saying is a bad idea, it’s a great idea, but it seems @John Fredrick Parker wants a Iberian union between Portugal and Spain through the older daughter Isabella. There was just some suggestions that maybe a marriage between a son of Isabella and a posthumous daughter from Catherine of York could make that happen.

I thought we were having Juan's posthumous alt-daughter survive and marrying alt-Miguel

I thought we could not decide to make a decision over what we're deciding over in the first place!

 

[happy35]

I thought we could not decide to make a decision over what we're deciding over in the first place!

Both ideas sound good to me, I’m terrible at making decisions!😜

 

[John Fredrick Parker]

There was just some suggestions that maybe a marriage between a son of Isabella and a posthumous daughter from Catherine of York could make that happen.

So long as the male children of the Catholic Monarchs (whether it's just Juan or what have you) die without issue, the combined domains of Castile and Aragon will pass to the eldest daughter, Isabella, and (after he death) to any children she has with the heir of Portugal (whether that's Alfonso or Miguel). That's why I like having Juan die young as he did OTL (in addition to plausibility issues, given his OTL health issues), and why the issue of Cat being born a male TTL gets tricky.

As long as Isabella the Younger, or her child, becomes her parents' heir, I'm happy.

 

[BlueFlowwer]

I'm in favour of that as well. I just want to avoid the scenario where Isabella goes mad from grief and starves herself, thus leading to her dying in childbirth. I think she would have become a good ruler of Spain if she did not suffer the loss of Alfonso like otl.

 

[ordinarylittleme]

Honestly, a universe with a successful Queen Joanna appeals most to me personally, but an Iberian union is also funky (or, the ASB version of Queen Katherine of England also inheriting Spain....delicious).

That being said we are no longer discussing Edward V or Richard of Shrewsbury

 

[John Fredrick Parker]

Honestly, a universe with a successful Queen Joanna appeals most to me personally... That being said we are no longer discussing Edward V or Richard of Shrewsbury

I think, in our discussion on Joanna. the consensus was she'd actually be a very successful Queen Consort of England.

Joanna was likely not mad, she was just NOT a fanatic about religion like her mother and sisters. I think she would be fine as queen of England. She's certainly very fertile, with excellent child mortality rate. IOTL she struggled in vain for political independence but we don't know if Edward would allow her to have that

The more I read the more I LIKE the Edward V and the Joanna of Aragon match. And if the reformation hits England I don’t think Joanna is going to mind too much.

Now again, England likely won't be Protestant TTL -- that said, I can see a woman of independent mind when it comes to religion actually getting along pretty well in pre-Reformation England.

 

[ordinarylittleme]

Now again, England likely won't be Protestant TTL -- that said, I can see a woman of independent mind when it comes to religion actually getting along pretty well in pre-Reformation England.

She might help ease diplomatic messiness with Burgundy too (with Burgundian in-laws)

 

[isabella]

So long as the male children of the Catholic Monarchs (whether it's just Juan or what have you) die without issue, the combined domains of Castile and Aragon will pass to the eldest daughter, Isabella, and (after he death) to any children she has with the heir of Portugal (whether that's Alfonso or Miguel). That's why I like having Juan die young as he did OTL (in addition to plausibility issues, given his OTL health issues), and why the issue of Cat being born a male TTL gets tricky.

As long as Isabella the Younger, or her child, becomes her parents' heir, I'm happy.

I have posted on the usual thread an alternate version of an Iberian union with Ferdinand and Isabella’s male line surviving

 

[isabella]

I'm in favour of that as well. I just want to avoid the scenario where Isabella goes mad from grief and starves herself, thus leading to her dying in childbirth. I think she would have become a good ruler of Spain if she did not suffer the loss of Alfonso like otl.

I fear who Alfonso’s death is pretty much inevitable, unless is guaranteed who Isabella would NOT inherit Castile and Aragon

 

[ordinarylittleme]

I fear who Alfonso’s death is pretty much inevitable, unless is guaranteed who Isabella would NOT inherit Castile and Aragon

Yes but Alfonso could have left a posthumous child

 

[happy35]

Yes but Alfonso could have left a posthumous child

Yes from what I understand @John Fredrick Parker wants the Aviz to take over Spain through a child from Isabella if not necessarily Isabella herself. Just some wanted Catherine of York to have a child ( I guess it was decided a daughter) and wanted the two to marry that way, but I guess it would be up to @John Fredrick Parker .

 

[ordinarylittleme]

Yes from what I understand @John Fredrick Parker wants the Aviz to take over Spain through a child from Isabella if not necessarily Isabella herself. Just some wanted Catherine of York to have a child ( I guess it was decided a daughter) and wanted the two to marry that way, but I guess it would be up to @John Fredrick Parker .

True, and that would be a cool scenario - Catherine of York's daughter and Isabella's son could marry and unite the peninsula. We only need now to rope Navarre into this too

 

[BlueFlowwer]

True, and that would be a cool scenario - Catherine of York's daughter and Isabella's son could marry and unite the peninsula. We only need now to rope Navarre into this too

So something like this?

Isabella of Castile and Aragon, b 1470 d 1522 m a) Alfonso, Prince of Portugal b 1475 d 1491, b)?
Issue:

John III of Portugal and Castile and Aragon (juro uxoris) b 1492 m Juana I of Castile and Leon b 1497

 

[happy35]

So something like this?

Isabella of Castile and Aragon, b 1470 d 1522 m a) Alfonso, Prince of Portugal b 1475 d 1491, b)?
Issue:

John III of Portugal and Castile and Aragon (juro uxoris) b 1492 m Juana I of Castile and Leon b 1497

Sounds good to me, 👍🏾the only thing is would the daughter be named Juana? I would think she would be named Isabella after her grandmother or “Catalina” or “Caterina” as Spainish version of her mother’s name Catherine.

 

[HortenseMancini]

So something like this?

Isabella of Castile and Aragon, b 1470 d 1522 m a) Alfonso, Prince of Portugal b 1475 d 1491, b)?
Issue:

John III of Portugal and Castile and Aragon (juro uxoris) b 1492 m Juana I of Castile and Leon b 1497

Sounds good to me, 👍🏾the only thing is would the daughter be named Juana? I would think she would be named Isabella after her grandmother or “Catalina” or “Caterina” as Spainish version of her mother’s name Catherine.

Afonso and Juana make the most sense to me as names for these two...

 

[happy35]

OK, I'll just delete the marriage for now; given how far she is in the line of succession, and an absence of any available major princes to change history with, I doubt it'd make much difference one way or the other.

Yup. I can easily see Maria going to Naples and Katherine to Savoy marriage-wise.