In a different thread I had Maria marry one of the Dukes of Savoy, so she could do that here. As for Catherine, I'm unsure as I don't have too much knowledge on other princes close to her age that haven't been paired off 😂 I do want to keep her though, since I think she was an interesting person historically and her birth is close enough to the pod that it's possible it wouldn't be changed
Wars of the Roses, Edward V and Prince Richard survive?
- Thread starter noturaveragejoe0316
- Start date
It was mentioned in the thread of Catherine possibly marrying a son of Francis Phoebus and Mary of York. I know there was some contention in Navarre between France and Spain, this way with a marriage between Catherine and the hypothetical son Spain would have a foot hole in Navarre.
Oh I see. Maybe somebody in Naples? I admit my Spanish and Italian history is not that great.
John Fredrick Parker
Donor
I’m guessing this is the son of Charles I (who is Duke as of PoD), the one who OTL didn’t survive to adulthood?
Well, the OTL wife of Ferdinand II (of Naples) was only a few years older than Maria was, so maybe.
If the 1488 Ferdinand gets Naples back, then he can work for Katherine
Oh I didn’t know that! So maybe a marriage in Naples with Catherine will help solidify Ferdinand’s hold on that country and Maria can marry in Savoy.
John Fredrick Parker
Donor
@noturaveragejoe0316
Someone else to possibly consider -- the young Duke of Braganza (born 1479), who at the time of the PoD is third in line to the throne of Portugal (after Prince Alfonso, and Manuel, the Duke of Viseu).
Maybe someone local, like the Duke of Segorbe? He was a Trastamara with royal blood, after all.
what do we think about butterflying away the early deaths of James III and Margaret of Denmark? I know its far from where we've been discussing, but I've been working on the family tree on familyecho and noticed they both died pretty young (which I knew, but didn't realize it was after the POD)
John Fredrick Parker
Donor
The duke as of the PoD was pretty old (late 30's) and married OTL in 1488; maybe his son?
I don't see much issue with that, less so if it's just one of them that lives a little longer; as it happens, they still died late enough OTL that James IV didn't need a regency, so I'm not sure it in itself would make too much difference, other than making sure he's married (which TTL, would be to Cecily of York) by the time he assumes the throne.
family tree for Castile and Aragon
Isabella of Castile (b 1451 d 1506) married 1469 Fernando II of Aragon (b 1452 d 1514), had:
1- Isabella (b 1470) married 1490 Afonso VI of Portugal (b 1475), had:
1a- Isabella of Portugal (b 1492)
1b- Joao of Portugal (b 1493 d 1494), Prince of Portugal
1c- Leonor of Portugal (b 1495)
1d- Joao of Portugal (b 1497)
1e- Duarte of Portugal (b 1498)
1f- Catarina of Portugal (b 1500)
2- Juan IIII (b 1478 d 1510) married 1496 Catherine of York (b 1479), had:
2a- Isabella of Castile (b 1497)
2b- Juan IV (b 1499), King and Castile and Prince of Girona
2c- Catalina of Castile (b 1502)
2d- Maria of Castile (b 1504)
2e- Alfonso of Castile (b 1508)
3- Juana (b 1479) married 1495 Edward V of England (b 1471), had:
3a- Elizabeth of England (b 1497)
3b- Edward (b 1499), Prince of Wales
3c- Richard (b 1502), Duke of Bedford
3d- Joanna of England (b 1503)
3e- Katherine of England (b 1505)
3f- Lionel of England (b 1507), twin of Margaret
3g- Margaret of England (b 1507), twin of Lionel
3h- John of England (b 1510)
3i- Thomas of England (b 1512)
4- Maria (b 1482), married 1498 Jaime, 4th Duke of Braganza (b 1479), had:
4a- Isabella of Braganza (b 1500)
4b- Teodosio of Braganza (b 1501 d 1502)
4c- Maria of Braganza (b 1503)
4d- Teodosio of Braganza (b 1505)
4e- Joana of Braganza (b 1506)
4f- miscarriage, 1507
4g- Jaime of Braganza (b 1510)
4h- Constantino of Braganza (b 1512)
4i- Eugénia of Braganza (b 1515)
5- Catalina (b 1485) married 1501 Ferdinand II of Naples (b 1467 d 1513), had:
5a- Maria of Naples (b 1503)
5b- Alfonso III of Naples(b 1505)
5c- Catarina of Naples (b 1510)
5d- stillborn son, 1512
5e- Ferdinand of Naples (b 1514)
1- Isabella (b 1470) married 1490 Afonso VI of Portugal (b 1475), had:
1a- Isabella of Portugal (b 1492)
1b- Joao of Portugal (b 1493 d 1494), Prince of Portugal
1c- Leonor of Portugal (b 1495)
1d- Joao of Portugal (b 1497)
1e- Duarte of Portugal (b 1498)
1f- Catarina of Portugal (b 1500)
2- Juan IIII (b 1478 d 1510) married 1496 Catherine of York (b 1479), had:
2a- Isabella of Castile (b 1497)
2b- Juan IV (b 1499), King and Castile and Prince of Girona
2c- Catalina of Castile (b 1502)
2d- Maria of Castile (b 1504)
2e- Alfonso of Castile (b 1508)
3- Juana (b 1479) married 1495 Edward V of England (b 1471), had:
3a- Elizabeth of England (b 1497)
3b- Edward (b 1499), Prince of Wales
3c- Richard (b 1502), Duke of Bedford
3d- Joanna of England (b 1503)
3e- Katherine of England (b 1505)
3f- Lionel of England (b 1507), twin of Margaret
3g- Margaret of England (b 1507), twin of Lionel
3h- John of England (b 1510)
3i- Thomas of England (b 1512)
4- Maria (b 1482), married 1498 Jaime, 4th Duke of Braganza (b 1479), had:
4a- Isabella of Braganza (b 1500)
4b- Teodosio of Braganza (b 1501 d 1502)
4c- Maria of Braganza (b 1503)
4d- Teodosio of Braganza (b 1505)
4e- Joana of Braganza (b 1506)
4f- miscarriage, 1507
4g- Jaime of Braganza (b 1510)
4h- Constantino of Braganza (b 1512)
4i- Eugénia of Braganza (b 1515)
5- Catalina (b 1485) married 1501 Ferdinand II of Naples (b 1467 d 1513), had:
5a- Maria of Naples (b 1503)
5b- Alfonso III of Naples(b 1505)
5c- Catarina of Naples (b 1510)
5d- stillborn son, 1512
5e- Ferdinand of Naples (b 1514)
Last edited:
John Fredrick Parker
Donor
@noturaveragejoe0316 I actually think there's a good chance that John of Asturias' poor constitution will kill him before his wife has a chance to give him any children, just as it did OTL. I'm also tempted to say Isabella the Younger still dies young in childbirth, but in her case I'd much rather see her successfully deliver an heir to the Portuguese throne... who, with the death of her older brother, stands to inherit her parent's combined thrones as well. (UNIFIED IBERIA!) I also think Edward V and his Queen Joanna would eventually have a "cooling off" period, as far as the number of children go, though I've got no issue with the oldest five names (at the very least, I'd think Joanna would want a break after the twins).
Actually, on the subject of "cooling off" periods, that brings me to something else that struck me -- it seems a few people here think that Emperor Maximillian and Elizabeth of York would breed like rabbits if given the chance, having something like 11 kids between them, despite said Emperor already having an heir and a daughter by previous marriage; this is to say nothing of the fact that OTL, Max's latter two marriages were childless, or that OTL's Elizabeth of York only saw three of her children survive to adulthood. So while it's fair to say that they'd manage at least one son (or extra son, in the case of Max) between them, I don't expect they'd be too "busy" otherwise -- maybe Ernst has two sisters (at least who survive to adulthood with him), but I expect that'd be the extent of it.
At least that's my impression.
Actually, on the subject of "cooling off" periods, that brings me to something else that struck me -- it seems a few people here think that Emperor Maximillian and Elizabeth of York would breed like rabbits if given the chance, having something like 11 kids between them, despite said Emperor already having an heir and a daughter by previous marriage; this is to say nothing of the fact that OTL, Max's latter two marriages were childless, or that OTL's Elizabeth of York only saw three of her children survive to adulthood. So while it's fair to say that they'd manage at least one son (or extra son, in the case of Max) between them, I don't expect they'd be too "busy" otherwise -- maybe Ernst has two sisters (at least who survive to adulthood with him), but I expect that'd be the extent of it.
At least that's my impression.
you're probably right about that. He didn't seem to enjoy good health. We could always just give him two-three daughters born before he dies, the oldest who marries the heir to portugal (isabella and afonsos son), another way of firmly uniting all of Iberia (while also having some kids by Juan and Catherine
, which i want for Catherine)thats a good point. I took away Elizabeth's last pregnancy, so she only has a son and two daughters by Max. I also took away Joanna's last two pregnancies as well, since you're right about her probably wanting a break after the twins (especially after she's secured England's future with four daughters and three sons)
I agree with you about Juan. I feel like he is going to kick the bucket any minute but dose manage to impregnate Catherine before he dose were she gives birth to a posthumous heir. That child will immediately be taken away from Catherine and raised by his grandparents.
For Edward and Juana I see NO cooling off period. She’s passionate, maybe a little enthralled with her husband and Edward may be a prude in public but he is still a Plantagenet and very hot blooded when it comes to the bedroom ☺️ Juana could EASILY be the Empress Maria Theresa of her time with all the kids she could be having ( I think Maria had like 16 IRL).
Agree about Elizabeth too. She got pregnant a lot but I think only 4 made it to Adulthood and Arthur died young. Also Maximilian was running the empire and had a heir and daughter already so I don’t think there is going to be a brood of children with them.
John Fredrick Parker
Donor
Honestly, I think it's best to stick close to OTL on this, and have the Catholic Monarchs forced to continue their line through their daughters (Isabella TTL, Juana OTL), since that means Spain will invariably be succeeded by a new dynasty, and likely become of yet an even larger personal union (with Austria and Burgundy OTL, likely with Portugal TTL, or even a more remote possibility of England). It's actually a lot more fun, while simultaneously being less of a stretch plausibility wise.
Does that make sense?