Exactly. If she's married to the second son, she has a consort if it comes to it... but England and Spain don't become one and the two countries don't swallow each other. It's a win/win.
Wars of the Roses, Edward V and Prince Richard survive?
- Thread starter noturaveragejoe0316
- Start date
Does he? Right away? If he manages to avoid a regency and the machinations of his uncle, nobody has any reason to believe his situation is especially unstable. Earlier marriages are ideal, but waiting on the male side never really hurt anyway. James IV was left waiting for an eternity for his OTL underaged bride to grow up. Here, Edward V has a living brother around the same age who can fill in for him if things get dire (not to mention plenty of sisters and some male-line cousins lying around for good measure if Edward earl of Warwick and Edward of Middleham both survive).
Basically, Edward V doesn't have to worry about the same things Henry VII was worried about when it came to the succession, so in my opinion he'd see no harm in waiting so long as it came with a benefit.
Except Edward of Middleham is sickly and George's attainder and death barred his kids from the throne... so there's realistically only Edward V, Richard and their sisters - and their sisters will bring England into the sphere of a foreign King.
So it's down to Edward and Richard to do it - so marrying needs to occur A.S.A.P, even if it's Richard to Isabella first, sometime in 1488 maybe? She's 18, he's 15, then Edward to Anne in 1494 when Anne is 17 to Edward's 24.
House of York so far
Edward IV of England (b 1442 d 1485) married Elizabeth Woodville (b 1437), had:
1- Elizabeth (b 1466), married 1484 Maximilian of Austria, later Holy Roman Emperor (b 1459)
2- Mary (b 1467) married 1485 Frederick of Holstein, later King of Denmark (b 1471)
3- Cecily (b 1469) married 1488 James IV of Scotland (b 1473)
4- Edward V (b 1470) married 1494 Anne, Duchess of Brittany (b 1477)
5- Richard (b 1473), Duke of York, married 1488 Isabella of Aragon (b 1470)
6- Anne (b 1475), married 1493 Philip IV of Burgundy and Austria (b 1478)
7- Catherine (b 1479) married 1494 Juan, Prince of Asturias (b 1478)
8- Bridget (b 1480), a nun
1- Elizabeth (b 1466), married 1484 Maximilian of Austria, later Holy Roman Emperor (b 1459)
2- Mary (b 1467) married 1485 Frederick of Holstein, later King of Denmark (b 1471)
3- Cecily (b 1469) married 1488 James IV of Scotland (b 1473)
4- Edward V (b 1470) married 1494 Anne, Duchess of Brittany (b 1477)
5- Richard (b 1473), Duke of York, married 1488 Isabella of Aragon (b 1470)
6- Anne (b 1475), married 1493 Philip IV of Burgundy and Austria (b 1478)
7- Catherine (b 1479) married 1494 Juan, Prince of Asturias (b 1478)
8- Bridget (b 1480), a nun
my only concern with the above marriages is would it be consider incestuous for Elizabeth and Anne to marry a father and son?
Debatable. I've heard conflicting evaluations of George's attainder and how it affected the inheritance status of his children. Richard III argued it disbarred them, but that doesn't mean he was correct. Richard III was willing to put forward any argument that gave him the throne, no matter how convincing or ill-supported. Besides, even if the attainder is considered valid, Edward V can reverse it if he knows he will die childless and Warwick remains the only potential heir.
Is this not enough? It's not like Edward V is not getting married at all. He's only waiting a while, in the mean time there's plenty of bodies who can be shored in as replacements if the succession becomes in doubt during that time. If Richard dies the Spanish betrothal can be broken in favor of a more immediate match for Edward. Canceled betrothals happen all the time, but keeping the best one open is good policy if things work out as intended.
Which shouldn't be a problem so long as he's not French and is willing to play ball in England. Which, given that Maximillian already has a son from his Burgundian marriage, a son of Elizabeth's could easily be brought up in England without causing any disruption for the Habsburgs.
I like it, though I have also just drawn up a version of this tree in the 'Alternate Monarchs' Thread. I can transfer it here, if you'd like to see it?
Isabella didn't marry Alfonso until 1490 (presumably because she was five years his elder...) Assuming a POD of 1481/83, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that Juana can take her place in Lisbon ITTL.
I note four marriages where the wife is older than the husband. Such marriages were not unknown (e.g. Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville), but to have four of seven in one family seems unlikely. If Edward marries Isabella, and Richard marries Anne, that eliminates one, and also the relative delay in Edward's marriage. (The seven children marry at 18, 17, 19, 24, 15, 18, and 15.) Edward is heir apparent and so his marriage requires more careful arranging, but even so that delay seems implausible. Would Edward IV want to make sure of his heir's marriage before he dies?
Also, IMO there would still be a regency for 15-year-old Edward V. If Edward IV lives till 1492 (age 50) then Edward V is 22 and no regency.
Another point: by 1494, Edward V is King. Who would he want to marry? Whereas if he marries at say 18, and his father is still alive, the marriage would be arranged for him. OTOH I don't think a regent could arrange a marriage. A regent is only a stand-in with temporary authority; wouldn't it be presumptuous for a regent to impose so permanent a measure?
good point. Switching them might be best especially since Anne is the heiress to Brittany as well, and Isabella is much closer to Edward's age anyway
that is also a good point. I agree that he would probably still have a regent, at least for a year or two. And as for who he might want to marry, if he's anything like his father he may simply marry for beauty rather than status
butterflied deaths
so far Mary of York (b 1467), and maybe Edward of Middleham? He died three years after the pod, so its possible. Anne Neville's could also be butterflied away, and she could potentially give Richard more children as well
Richard was already married to Anne Mowbray when Edward was engaged to Anne of Brittany, plus Francis II likely still hoped in a son to inherit Brittany
Isabella is the next-in-line after Juan, whose health is not great and Alfonso is the only child of his parents so Portugal would NEVER renounce to Isabella of Aragon.
At this point the Yorks, unlike the Tudors in OTL (but remember who Henry VII, widowed and with only one living son, choose to not remarry and to engage that son to a princess more than eight years younger than him) are perfectly stable (as there is NO Lancastrian claimant around. Henry Tudor would NOT be taken seriously here and in any case he is in England and not on the continent) meaning who Edward and Richard marrying younger girls is not a problem
Juana to Alfonso made no sense for Portugal when Isabella is a better match under any aspect and she is already being raised as future Queen of Portugal
i didn't know about his marriage, so if her death is butterflied away he will stay married to her, and remarry in the event of a death later
I kinda like the Richard of Gloucester and Anne of Brittany match. It has rarely been done. As for Edward V is there a Portugal Infanta available? That could nicely tie up the YORK and LANCASTER claim as I believe the Portugal royal family were descendants of one of John of Gaunt's legitimate daughters.
Anne Mowbray died at the end of 1481, who is well before the POD (she and Richard were married as children and for less than three years)n
What is the thinking here? Eldest daughter of the Catholic Monarchs on a second son seems a stretch.
yeah, I've switched her to be married to Edward V, i just forgot to edit the family tree. I agree that it didn't make much sense
Few ways of ensuring Richard of Gloucester doesn't coup his nephew:
(Working backwards)
A) Negotiations with Maximilian are progressed far enough that he and Elizabeth of York are practically married and declaring her a bastard will offend the Habsburgs/Burgundy.
B) Mary of Burgundy doesn't die (causing Charles VIII's engagement to Elizabeth to be broken)
C) Franz of Austria is born hale and hearty (Margarethe of Austria isn't prospective heiress then, and of no interest to Charles)
D) Margarethe is born male
E) Charles the Bold and Margaret of York have a son (same reason as B and C)
Problem with A is that Edward IV was a lot like Henry VII in that he regarded a prospective betrothal as better than an actual marriage. And he was - despite how luxurious his court was (or perhaps because of it) - cheap. He refused the dowry terms from several suitors because they demanded too much, but he still wanted the matches. A contemporary noted that it was as if he regarded his daughters' looks as dowry enough.
