Wars of the Roses, Edward V and Prince Richard survive?

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Anarch King of Dipsodes

FalconHonour said:
Not really? It's not unusual for guardians to arrange their wards' marriages, and that's essentially what a Regent is for an underage King. Don't forget that Edward's most likely Regent would be Richard of Gloucester, his uncle and oldest male relative. No one would argue that the King's uncle has a right to have a hand in arranging His Grace's marriage.
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The regent is not just the personal guardian of the future King, he's the guardian of the nation: "Lord Protector". The royal marriage is a great matter of state. Peculiarly, it cannot be effectively settled until the King is nearly of age, and could settle it himself in a few more years. For a regent to decide it during his his time-limited term of authority (and by necessity, near the end of the term) would IMO be seen very negatively.
 
ordinarylittleme

ordinarylittleme

Anarch King of Dipsodes said:
The regent is not just the personal guardian of the future King, he's the guardian of the nation: "Lord Protector". The royal marriage is a great matter of state. Peculiarly, it cannot be effectively settled until the King is nearly of age, and could settle it himself in a few more years. For a regent to decide it during his his time-limited term of authority (and by necessity, near the end of the term) would IMO be seen very negatively.
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I mean, if the bride is raised in the foreign country, it'd be pretty difficult to ship her back (unless it's Charles VIII/Anne of Brittany/Margaret of Austria)
 

BlueFlowwer

Let's go with Edward V marrying Joanna of Castile in this scenario.

Edward V of England b 1470 d 1533 m Joanna of Castile b 1479
Issue:

-Elizabeth of England b 1497
-Edward b 1499 d 1505
-Richard III of England b 1500
-Joan of England b 1503
-Edmund of England b 1504 d 1515
-George of England b 1506
-Anne of England b 1508 d 1524
-Cecily of England b 1510
 

John Fredrick Parker

Donor
Is there anything we can really talk about a hypothetical reign for Edward V (say 1487 to 1518) beyond who he marries? What kind of differences could we pretty confidently predict he’d have with OTL Henry VII?
 

noturaveragejoe0316

John Fredrick Parker said:
Is there anything we can really talk about a hypothetical reign for Edward V (say 1487 to 1518) beyond who he marries? What kind of differences could we pretty confidently predict he’d have with OTL Henry VII?
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I feel like it'd be pretty different from Henry VII's reign, since they'd probably have pretty different personalities. Edward IV seemed to be somewhat of a womanizer, and the Yorks were all considered attractive so maybe Edward V follows in his fathers footsteps, being fairly extravagant and having affairs? Or he goes the opposite and is more frugal and chaste, which would actually be similar to Henry VII
 

BlueFlowwer

The Tudor paranoia and beheadings would be gone. The reformation in england would be different, if it happens at all. The Church of England would look a lot different. The Tudor inclusion of Welsh citizens would be butterflied? I think that happened?

Would men like Wolsey, More and Cromwell rise to prominence in Edward's court?

Would Edward interfere in the invasion of Brittany by France 1491?
 

noturaveragejoe0316

Edward IV of England (b 1442 d 1485) married Elizabeth Woodville (b 1437), had:
1- Elizabeth (b 1466), married 1484 Maximilian of Austria, later Holy Roman Emperor (b 1459)
2- Mary (b 1467) married 1484 Francis II of Brittany (b 1433 d 1492)
3- Cecily (b 1469) married 1488 James IV of Scotland (b 1473)
4- Edward V (b 1470) married 1495 Juana of Aragon (b 1479)
5- Richard (b 1473), Duke of York married 1492 Louise of Savoy (b 1476)
6- Anne (b 1475), married 1493 Philip IV of Burgundy and Austria (b 1478)
7- Catherine (b 1479)
8- Bridget (b 1480), a nun

Richard, Duke of Gloucester (b 1452), married 1472 Anne Neville (b 1456 d 1488)(A), married 1494 Anne, Duchess of Brittany (b 1477) had:
1- Edward of Middleham (b 1474)(A)
2- Anne of Gloucester(b 1483)(A)
3- miscarriage, 1485 (A)
4- Richard of Gloucester (b 1487)(A)
5- Francis of Gloucester and Brittany (b 1496)(B)
6- Elizabeth of Gloucester and Brittany (b 1498 d 1500)(B)
7- Margaret of Gloucester and Brittany (b 1500)(B)
8- Cecily of Gloucester and Brittany (b 1503)(B)
9- miscarriage, 1504
10- John of Gloucester and Brittany (b 1506)(B)
 
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marriages for gloucester children?
  • Index

    • noturaveragejoe0316

    specifically the children of Richard and Anne Neville since they're considerably older. Edward of Middleham's early death has been butterflied, mostly because I feel bad for him and his mother Anne Neville XD he also now has two full siblings, Anne and Richard, and several half-siblings from his fathers second marriage to Anne of Brittany
     
  • Index

    • noturaveragejoe0316

    Edward IV of England (b 1442 d 1485) married Elizabeth Woodville (b 1437), had:
    1- Elizabeth (b 1466), married 1483 Maximilian of Austria, later Holy Roman Emperor (b 1459), had:
    1a- Mary of Austria (b 1484)
    1b- Maximilian of Austria (b 1486)
    1c- George of Austria (b 1487)
    1d- stillborn daughter, 1489
    1e- Elisabeth of Austria (b 1491)
    1f- Ernest of Austria (b 1492 d 1495)
    1g- miscarriage, 1493
    1h- Henry of Austria (b 1496)
    1i- miscarriage, 1498
    1j- Eleanor of Austria (b 1499)
    1k- Frederick of Austria (b 1503)

    2- Mary (b 1467) married 1484 Francis II of Brittany (b 1433 d 1492), had:
    2a- Marie of Brittany (b 1486)
    2b- John of Brittany (b 1487 d 1490)
    3b- Marguerite of Brittany (b 1489)

    3- Cecily (b 1469) married 1487 James IV of Scotland (b 1473), had:
    3a- Isabel of Scotland(b 1490)
    3b- James (b 1493 d 1496), Duke of Rothesay
    3c- Alexander (b 1495), Duke of Rothesay
    3d- Margaret of Scotland (b 1498)
    3e- stillborn daughter, 1500
    3f- Edmund (b 1502), Duke of Ross
    3g- Elizabeth of Scotland (b 1504)

    4- Edward V (b 1470) married 1495 Juana of Aragon (b 1479), had:
    4a- Elizabeth of England (b 1497)
    4b- Edward (b 1499), Prince of Wales
    4c- Richard (b 1502), Duke of Lancaster
    4d- Anne of England (b 1503)
    4e- Joanna of England (b 1505)
    4f- Lionel of England (b 1507), twin of Margaret
    4g- Margaret of England (b 1507), twin of Lionel
    4h- John of England (b 1510)
    4i- Ferdinand of England (b 1512)

    5- Richard (b 1473), Duke of York married 1492 Louise of Savoy (b 1476), had:
    5a- Edmund (b 1494), Earl of March
    5b- Edgar of York (b 1496)
    5c- Margaret of York (b 1499)
    5e- Richard of York (b 1500)
    5f- Louise of York (b 1503)
    5g- Philip of York (b 1505)
    5h- miscarriage, 1507
    5i- Elizabeth of York (b 1509)

    6- Anne (b 1475), married 1493 Philip IV of Burgundy and Austria (b 1478), had:
    6a- Charles of Burgundy and Austria (b 1496)
    6b- Eleanor of Burgundy and Austria (b 1500)
    6c- Mary of Burgundy and Austria (b 1503)
    6d- Maximilian of Burgundy and Austria (b 1507)
    6e- Anna of Burgundy and Austria (b 1509)

    7- Catherine (b 1479), married 1496 Juan, Prince of Asturias and Girona, later King of Castile (b 1478 d 1510), had:
    7a- Isabella of Castile (b 1497)
    7b- Juan IV (b 1499), King and Castile and Prince of Girona
    7c- Catalina of Castile (b 1502)
    7d- Maria of Castile (b 1504)
    7e- Alfonso of Castile (b 1508)

    8- Bridget (b 1480), a nun

    Richard, Duke of Gloucester (b 1452), married 1472 Anne Neville (b 1456 d 1488)(A), married 1494 Anne, Duchess of Brittany (b 1477) had:
    1- Edward of Middleham (b 1474)(A)
    2- Anne of Gloucester(b 1483)(A)
    3- miscarriage, 1485 (A)
    4- Richard of Gloucester (b 1487)(A)
    5- Francis of Gloucester and Brittany (b 1496)(B)
    6- Elizabeth of Gloucester and Brittany (b 1498 d 1500)(B)
    7- Margaret of Gloucester and Brittany (b 1500)(B)
    8- Cecily of Gloucester and Brittany (b 1503)(B)
    9- miscarriage, 1504
    10- John of Gloucester and Brittany (b 1506)(B)
     

    Kellan Sullivan

    BlueFlowwer said:
    The Tudor paranoia and beheadings would be gone. The reformation in england would be different, if it happens at all. The Church of England would look a lot different. The Tudor inclusion of Welsh citizens would be butterflied? I think that happened?

    Would men like Wolsey, More and Cromwell rise to prominence in Edward's court?

    Would Edward interfere in the invasion of Brittany by France 1491?
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    Before we get to Wolsey, More and Cromwell, there's Henry VII's men of Dudley, Morton etc. Morton was already in place under Edward IV (albeit not a cardinal or even massively important).

    But Antony Wydeville and Richard Grey will definitely have places in the new government. As will Hastings (a diehard Edwardian who also hated Dorset AIUI).

    From an old discussion:
    https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...york-court-and-the-tudor-court-of-otl.416225/
     
    Tudorfan

    Tudorfan

    Kellan Sullivan said:
    Few ways of ensuring Richard of Gloucester doesn't coup his nephew:
    (Working backwards)
    A) Negotiations with Maximilian are progressed far enough that he and Elizabeth of York are practically married and declaring her a bastard will offend the Habsburgs/Burgundy.
    B) Mary of Burgundy doesn't die (causing Charles VIII's engagement to Elizabeth to be broken)
    C) Franz of Austria is born hale and hearty (Margarethe of Austria isn't prospective heiress then, and of no interest to Charles)
    D) Margarethe is born male
    E) Charles the Bold and Margaret of York have a son (same reason as B and C)

    Problem with A is that Edward IV was a lot like Henry VII in that he regarded a prospective betrothal as better than an actual marriage. And he was - despite how luxurious his court was (or perhaps because of it) - cheap. He refused the dowry terms from several suitors because they demanded too much, but he still wanted the matches. A contemporary noted that it was as if he regarded his daughters' looks as dowry enough.
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    There is an easier method. During the... campaigns... in Scotland, Richard dies.
     

    John Fredrick Parker

    Donor
    BlueFlowwer said:
    The Tudor paranoia and beheadings would be gone. The reformation in england would be different, if it happens at all. The Church of England would look a lot different. The Tudor inclusion of Welsh citizens would be butterflied? I think that happened?

    Would men like Wolsey, More and Cromwell rise to prominence in Edward's court?

    Would Edward interfere in the invasion of Brittany by France 1491?
    Click to expand...
    Kellan Sullivan said:
    Before we get to Wolsey, More and Cromwell, there's Henry VII's men of Dudley, Morton etc. Morton was already in place under Edward IV (albeit not a cardinal or even massively important).

    But Antony Wydeville and Richard Grey will definitely have places in the new government. As will Hastings (a diehard Edwardian who also hated Dorset AIUI).

    From an old discussion:
    https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...york-court-and-the-tudor-court-of-otl.416225/
    Click to expand...
    On the subject of the Reformation -- even putting the Great Matter of OTL completely aside, there's still a very good case to be made that a Yorkist England would remain Catholic in the face of an alt-16th Century Reformation; ironically, it could be said it was persecution of the porto-protestant lollards under the Lancasters and Tudors that laid the foundations for the "grassroots" aspects of England's OTL Reformation, and that ironically a more lenient "humanist" government under Edward IV and TTL's Edward V would mean the soil is far less fertile for any the kind of support religious upheaval would need.

    Brittany -- well, that kind of depends on who the Yorks marry, doesn't it?
     
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