Wars of the Roses, Edward V and Prince Richard survive?
- Thread starter noturaveragejoe0316
- Start date
It's possible, but naming children after an uncle you never knew isn't all that common. Honestly, I'm not even sure if Richard will be an automatic choice, either. Maybe if Edward V is close to his brother, then I could see it. But if they have a tense relationship, then it's possible they go with John for a second son like @isabella suggested (the finer details of the Trastamaras are not my specialty. I would maintain that it's unlikely Edward V would directly name a son after John of Gaunt or even John of Bedford, but reintroducing it to honor his brother-in-law would be a different matter).
John Fredrick Parker
Donor
Well, there is always following up Edward V with (an alt) Edward VI; even four monarchs with the same name in a row is hardly unheard of in European history, so at that point, might as well go for broke and have (alt) Edward VII's reign last into the 17th Century.
Edward is almost assured for the eldest son. Another possible name for a younger son is Anthony, if Edward V's close relationship with that uncle continues without a fallout.
Edward, Richard, John, Anthony, Edmund and Lionel are the names most likely for boys, I think (and I suspect in that order too, for all the reasons already discussed. Edward V has an Uncle Lionel, don't forget, one who, as Bishop of Salisbury, could easily be namesake godfather to a Prince. And an Uncle John, even if John wasn't Joanna's brother and the masculine form of Joanna...
Girls will likely be Elizabeth for both grandmothers, Joanna for their mother, Cecily for the Duchess of York, Mary, Margaret and Katherine for aunts on both sides, and maybe even Anne or Jacquetta, if those aren't too close to Joanna.
Girls will likely be Elizabeth for both grandmothers, Joanna for their mother, Cecily for the Duchess of York, Mary, Margaret and Katherine for aunts on both sides, and maybe even Anne or Jacquetta, if those aren't too close to Joanna.
John Fredrick Parker
Donor
Actually, now that you mention it, the daughter of Isabella who did become Queen of England OTL did name her daughter Mary; Joanna also named one of her younger daughters Mary OTL. So that's probably in there too.
So say Joanna has six children, as she did OTL; and say, going by the dad's dad, it's 3-2 in favor of girls, so four girls and two boys. That would give us Edward and Richard for the sons (le sigh); likely Elizabeth, Mary, and Joanna for the older girls; and let's say Cecily for the youngest.
Uh what? Katherine of Aragon had similar batting average, and had Mary been male/married earlier, there would be no reason (beyond act of God) that Mary would be unable to have children/descent of her own.
I'm just saying that to assume just because Marge had only one pregnancy (when she was a teenager and had to deal with the added stress of her husband/baby daddy dying during the pregnancy) and Charles' kids all died in infancy (when Anne of Brittany was known to have health problems) that if they were matched, there's no reason to believe they'd have no surviving issue.
The good news is that at least the titles will be a little more creative, since Duke of York is unavailable for Richard. Maybe Duke of Clarence? But that might be deemed a tainted title, or Edward V might see the benefit in restoring the title to Warwick. Probably Duke of Bedford, in that case.
John Fredrick Parker
Donor
Hypothetical counter-point, some of those health problems might have been the fault of the the French royal household (eg both Anne's predecessor and successor saw something like half of her births result in miscarriage). But I do take your point.
So let's say, for the sake of argument, that Charles VIII and Margaret of Austria have at least one surviving daughter, but no surviving sons; let's also say the king doesn't die by hitting his head on a door, and lives to at least age 40 (so sometime in the 1510's). Meanwhile, the Duke of Orleans (OTL Louis XII) can't get out of his marriage to Joan of France, and so dies before King Charles, childless. Meaning the line passes to the Count of Angouleme (now the new Duke of Orleans), and if he's dead, to his son by Louise of Savoy (likely still named Francois).
Going with my Eleanor Percy marries Richard, Duke of Gloucester scenario here.
Richard, Duke of Gloucester b 1452 d 1507 m a) Anne Neville b 1456 d 1485, b) Eleanor Percy b 1474 d 1530
Issue:
Edward of Middleham b 1473 d 1484
Cecily of Gloucester b 1490
Richard, 2d Duke of Gloucester b 1492
Edmund of Gloucester b 1495
Eleanor of Gloucester b 1502
Joanna of Gloucester b 1506
Richard, Duke of Gloucester b 1452 d 1507 m a) Anne Neville b 1456 d 1485, b) Eleanor Percy b 1474 d 1530
Issue:
Edward of Middleham b 1473 d 1484
Cecily of Gloucester b 1490
Richard, 2d Duke of Gloucester b 1492
Edmund of Gloucester b 1495
Eleanor of Gloucester b 1502
Joanna of Gloucester b 1506
Even if Louis XII can't get out of his marriage, he would still (theoretically) outlive his wife. After all, nuns had access to a far healthier diet and better healthcare than there was at court. Jeanne dying earlier and Louis remarrying to Charlotte of Naples (instead of wedding her to the comte de Laval) could be fun to see.
But since this thread opened with questions about a Yorkist England, I think we should get back to that?
Sorry for derailing
Haha sometimes you can’t beat tradition! My neighbor and her sister share the same names with their granddaughters. They usually add “ little “ to differentiate who is who.
edited for Mary of York to Francis Phoebus
Edward IV of England (b 1442 d 1485) married Elizabeth Woodville (b 1437), had:
1- Elizabeth (b 1466), married 1486 Maximilian of Austria (b 1459), had:
1a- Elisabeth of Austria (b 1488)
1b- Ernest of Austria (b 1490)
1c- miscarriage, 1491
1d- Eleanor of Austria (b 1492)
2- Mary (b 1467) married 1483 Francis Phoebus of Navarre (b 1467), had:
2a- Magdalena of Navarre (b 1486)
2b- Catherine of Navarre (b 1488)
2c- Gaston of Navarre, Prince of Viana (b 1489)
2d- Eleanor of Navarre (b 1492 d 1495)
2e- miscarriage, 1493
2f- Francis of Navarre (b 1495)
3- Cecily (b 1469) married 1487 James IV of Scotland (b 1473), had:
3a- Isabel of Scotland (b 1490)
3b- James (b 1493 d 1496), Duke of Rothesay
3c- Edward (b 1495), Duke of Rothesay
3d- Margaret of Scotland (b 1498)
3e- stillborn daughter, 1500
3f- Edmund (b 1502), Duke of Ross
3g- Elizabeth of Scotland (b 1504)
3h- Cecily of Scotland (b 1505)
4- Edward V (b 1470) married 1495 Juana of Aragon (b 1479), had:
4a- Elizabeth of England (b 1497)
4b- Edward (b 1499), Prince of Wales
4c- Richard (b 1502), Duke of Bedford
4d- Joanna of England (b 1503)
4e- Katherine of England (b 1505)
4f- Lionel of England (b 1507), twin of Margaret
4g- Margaret of England (b 1507), twin of Lionel
4h- John of England (b 1510)
4i- Thomas of England (b 1512)
5- Richard (b 1473), Duke of York, married 1494 Anne, Duchess of Brittany (b 1477), had:
5a- Edmund (b 1496), Earl of March, Heir to Duchy of York
5b- Margaret of York (b 1498)
5c- Francis of York, Count de Montfort (b 1501), Heir to Duchy of Brittany
5d- Anne of York (b 1502 d 1505)
5e- Isabel of York (b 1504)
5f- miscarriage, 1505
5g- Edgar of York (b 1506 d 1510)
5h- Anne of York (b 1508)
5i- miscarriage, 1509
5j- stillborn son, 1510
5k- Edgar of York (b 1511)
6- Anne (b 1475), married 1493 Philip IV of Burgundy and Austria (b 1478), had:
6a- Charles of Burgundy and Austria (b 1496)
6b- Eleanor of Burgundy and Austria (b 1500)
6c- Mary of Burgundy and Austria (b 1503)
6d- Maximilian of Burgundy and Austria (b 1507)
6e- Anna of Burgundy and Austria (b 1509)
7- Catherine (b 1479), married 1496 Juan, Prince of Asturias and Girona, later King of Castile (b 1478 d 1510), had:
7a- Isabella of Castile (b 1497)
7b- Juan IV (b 1499), King and Castile and Prince of Girona
7c- Catalina of Castile (b 1502)
7d- Maria of Castile (b 1504)
7e- Alfonso of Castile (b 1508)
8- Bridget (b 1480), a nun
1- Elizabeth (b 1466), married 1486 Maximilian of Austria (b 1459), had:
1a- Elisabeth of Austria (b 1488)
1b- Ernest of Austria (b 1490)
1c- miscarriage, 1491
1d- Eleanor of Austria (b 1492)
2- Mary (b 1467) married 1483 Francis Phoebus of Navarre (b 1467), had:
2a- Magdalena of Navarre (b 1486)
2b- Catherine of Navarre (b 1488)
2c- Gaston of Navarre, Prince of Viana (b 1489)
2d- Eleanor of Navarre (b 1492 d 1495)
2e- miscarriage, 1493
2f- Francis of Navarre (b 1495)
3- Cecily (b 1469) married 1487 James IV of Scotland (b 1473), had:
3a- Isabel of Scotland (b 1490)
3b- James (b 1493 d 1496), Duke of Rothesay
3c- Edward (b 1495), Duke of Rothesay
3d- Margaret of Scotland (b 1498)
3e- stillborn daughter, 1500
3f- Edmund (b 1502), Duke of Ross
3g- Elizabeth of Scotland (b 1504)
3h- Cecily of Scotland (b 1505)
4- Edward V (b 1470) married 1495 Juana of Aragon (b 1479), had:
4a- Elizabeth of England (b 1497)
4b- Edward (b 1499), Prince of Wales
4c- Richard (b 1502), Duke of Bedford
4d- Joanna of England (b 1503)
4e- Katherine of England (b 1505)
4f- Lionel of England (b 1507), twin of Margaret
4g- Margaret of England (b 1507), twin of Lionel
4h- John of England (b 1510)
4i- Thomas of England (b 1512)
5- Richard (b 1473), Duke of York, married 1494 Anne, Duchess of Brittany (b 1477), had:
5a- Edmund (b 1496), Earl of March, Heir to Duchy of York
5b- Margaret of York (b 1498)
5c- Francis of York, Count de Montfort (b 1501), Heir to Duchy of Brittany
5d- Anne of York (b 1502 d 1505)
5e- Isabel of York (b 1504)
5f- miscarriage, 1505
5g- Edgar of York (b 1506 d 1510)
5h- Anne of York (b 1508)
5i- miscarriage, 1509
5j- stillborn son, 1510
5k- Edgar of York (b 1511)
6- Anne (b 1475), married 1493 Philip IV of Burgundy and Austria (b 1478), had:
6a- Charles of Burgundy and Austria (b 1496)
6b- Eleanor of Burgundy and Austria (b 1500)
6c- Mary of Burgundy and Austria (b 1503)
6d- Maximilian of Burgundy and Austria (b 1507)
6e- Anna of Burgundy and Austria (b 1509)
7- Catherine (b 1479), married 1496 Juan, Prince of Asturias and Girona, later King of Castile (b 1478 d 1510), had:
7a- Isabella of Castile (b 1497)
7b- Juan IV (b 1499), King and Castile and Prince of Girona
7c- Catalina of Castile (b 1502)
7d- Maria of Castile (b 1504)
7e- Alfonso of Castile (b 1508)
8- Bridget (b 1480), a nun
Last edited:
this is assuming Mary of Burgundy dies in childbirth with her third child, who's gender i'm undecided on
John Fredrick Parker
Donor
If Emperor Maximillian marries Elizabeth of York, his son Phillip marries Anne of York, and Charles VIII of France marries Margaret of Austria -- as we’ve discussed -- then:
First, how much of Burgundy does Margaret give as a dowry to France, and what does that leave for Phillip?
Second, suppose that both Max and Phillip are given at least one surviving son -- let’s call them Charles and Ernst, respectively. Obviously, Charles is getting Burgundy in this scenario, but does Max see that Ernst inherits anything? Maybe Outer Austria?
Finally, if Ernst does even get anything, does that have any bearing on who becomes Holy Roman Emperor after Maximillian (assuming Phillip predeceases him as OTL)?
- - - - -
And on somewhat different note, though still surprisingly relevant here - - what are your thoughts on the OTL death of John Prince of Asturias? At the time, “medical” opinion was that he had died of too much sexual activity with his new wife; modern historians seem to speculate that he died of tuberculosis, though I can’t seem to find any details on that. I’m kind of wondering if his death is as avertable (assuming he still marries young) as some other names we talk about, like Prince Alfonso of Portugal or Charles VIII of France; thoughts?
First, how much of Burgundy does Margaret give as a dowry to France, and what does that leave for Phillip?
Second, suppose that both Max and Phillip are given at least one surviving son -- let’s call them Charles and Ernst, respectively. Obviously, Charles is getting Burgundy in this scenario, but does Max see that Ernst inherits anything? Maybe Outer Austria?
Finally, if Ernst does even get anything, does that have any bearing on who becomes Holy Roman Emperor after Maximillian (assuming Phillip predeceases him as OTL)?
- - - - -
And on somewhat different note, though still surprisingly relevant here - - what are your thoughts on the OTL death of John Prince of Asturias? At the time, “medical” opinion was that he had died of too much sexual activity with his new wife; modern historians seem to speculate that he died of tuberculosis, though I can’t seem to find any details on that. I’m kind of wondering if his death is as avertable (assuming he still marries young) as some other names we talk about, like Prince Alfonso of Portugal or Charles VIII of France; thoughts?
assuming Charles makes it adulthood I would assume he'd be made Holy Roman Emperor after his grandfather, but I suppose it depends on the age of Ernest and Charles at the time as well
reportedly he had a weak constitution, which makes it seem as though it'd be pretty hard for him to make it very far pass his thirties. At most he could make it to his early forties, but in my opinion he'd probably die before his children are adults, leaving Castile and Aragon to a young king (Juan IV or another name such as Fernando or Alfonso)
John Fredrick Parker
Donor
One other wrinkle -- who do the Catholic Monarchs find for their third daughter, Maria (and, assuming she’s still born and survives, Catherine)?