UK German peace in 1940

[ghyo]

What if Britain accepted Germany’s peace offer in 1940 and negotiations began for a final treaty to be signed.

I think Germany would puppet the nations it conquered in Western Europe besides France.

Alsace-Lorraine, Luxembourg and Eupen-Malmedy annexed by Germany.

Possible return of Germany’s colonies in Africa but that might be too much for Britain to accept.

 

[The Tai-Pan]

What peace offer, exactly?

 

[ghyo]

What peace offer, exactly?

On the 19th July 1940 Hitler made an “appeal to reason” for Britain to accept his peace offer. The offer was rejected tho. No terms were ever given so it’s hard to say what the outcome of the peace would have been.

 

[The Tai-Pan]

On the 19th July 1940 Hitler made an “appeal to reason” for Britain to accept his peace offer. The offer was rejected tho. No terms were ever given so it’s hard to say what the outcome of the peace would have been.

I think people overrate this offer. What was Hitler going to offer? He isn't going to give up an inch of territory, he isn't going to decrease the size of his army, he isn't going to respect the rights of neutrals. And even if he lied and said he would no one in the UK is buying it, not after so many other treaties and agreements torn up by Hitler. Worse, a Nazi dominated Europe is a dire threat not only to the Empire in a abstract geopolitical sense but a threat to England in the very direct sense. It would be suicide to agree to peace, and everyone in the UK knew it (even if they didn't like it).

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

Britain draws out the negotiations while rearming as rapidly as possible and taking full advantage of the lack of Uboats in the Atlantic. Meanwhile all resources are sent to North Africa to knock the Italians out of Libya. Once Germany attacks the Soviets Britain ships all it can to Murmansk while still officially at peace with Germany. At that point Germany declares war and Britain unleashes Bomber Command.

 

[ghyo]

I think people overrate this offer. What was Hitler going to offer? He isn't going to give up an inch of territory, he isn't going to decrease the size of his army, he isn't going to respect the rights of neutrals. And even if he lied and said he would no one in the UK is buying it, not after so many other treaties and agreements torn up by Hitler. Worse, a Nazi dominated Europe is a dire threat not only to the Empire in a abstract geopolitical sense but a threat to England in the very direct sense. It would be suicide to agree to peace, and everyone in the UK knew it (even if they didn't like it).

Well we will never know what the terms of peace would have been considering no terms were given. It was just an invitation to begin negotiations. The final outcome of these negotiations who knows.

 

[The Tai-Pan]

Well we will never know what the terms of peace would have been considering no terms were given. It was just an invitation to begin negotiations. The final outcome of these negotiations who knows.

That's what I mean. How do you start, when even the most basic of terms would be unacceptable to both sides?

The Nazi order was predicated on overthrowing the entire global power system.

 

[ghyo]

Britain draws out the negotiations while rearming as rapidly as possible and taking full advantage of the lack of Uboats in the Atlantic. Meanwhile all resources are sent to North Africa to knock the Italians out of Libya. Once Germany attacks the Soviets Britain ships all it can to Murmansk while still officially at peace with Germany. At that point Germany declares war and Britain unleashes Bomber Command.

I think that is a very far fetch theory. I don’t think if Germany secured a peace with Britain they would declare war again.

 

[Finbarr the Fair]

On the 19th July 1940 Hitler made an “appeal to reason” for Britain to accept his peace offer. The offer was rejected tho. No terms were ever given so it’s hard to say what the outcome of the peace would have been.

So, the British Commonwealth and Empire is asked to agree to a "Pig in a Poke". Agree to a peace that Hitler will dictate in talks on a simple assurance it will not be disastrous to British interests.

"I think I have a bridge to sell you ". Possibly a Garden Bridge or one over the Beaufort Trench.*

Why should the British government and people agree?

Please outline a Peace Settlement that you think Hitler would (or just should) offer to Britain and its Allies in July 1940. So we can judge the plausibility acceptance. And then assess the results of the POD.

* Modern British joke, i will delete if it is too close to modern politics.

 

[nbcman]

I think that is a very far fetch theory. I don’t think if Germany secured a peace with Britain they would declare war again.

Tell that to Nappy after the Treaty of Amiens. In the unlikely event that the British decide on an armistice, it would be a temporary break in the war.

 

[ghyo]

Tell that to Nappy after the Treaty of Amiens. In the unlikely event that the British decide on an armistice, it would be a temporary break in the war.

Yes but the difference is that it was Britain that declared war on Napoleon while you believe Germany would declare war on Britain. I can’t see Germany doing this if they secured a peace treaty with Britain.

 

[ghyo]

So, the British Commonwealth and Empire is asked to agree to a "Pig in a Poke". Agree to a peace that Hitler will dictate in talks on a simple assurance it will not be disastrous to British interests.

"I think I have a bridge to sell you ". Possibly a Garden Bridge or one over the Beaufort Trench.*

Why should the British government and people agree?

Please outline a Peace Settlement that you think Hitler would (or just should) offer to Britain and its Allies in July 1940. So we can judge the plausibility acceptance. And then assess the results of the POD.

* Modern British joke, i will delete if it is too close to modern politics.

One I think Hitler should have offered:

German withdrawal from Western Europe besides Alsace-Lorraine, Luxembourg and that territory they lost to Belgium after WW1.

German troops likely occupy a part of France until war reparations are paid.

I think this is quite generous considering the circumstances.

One I think Hitler would offer idk. No one will even be for certain. I depends on how much he is willing to give up so Britain accepts peace.

 

[nbcman]

Yes but the difference is that it was Britain that declared war on Napoleon while you believe Germany would declare war on Britain. I can’t see Germany doing this if they secured a peace treaty with Britain.

I don't believe that Nazi Germany would give terms that Britain would find remotely acceptable. I think that there is confusion based on how you phrased your previous statement

I think that is a very far fetch theory. I don’t think if Germany secured a peace with Britain they would declare war again.

The statement 'they would declare war again' is unclear on who the 'they' is. Based on your recent response, it appears that you meant 'they' to be Germany. Based on previous German actions, it would seem unlikely that Nazi Germany could be trusted to not declare war again since they have a long history of broken treaties.

 

[The Tai-Pan]

One I think Hitler should have offered:

German withdrawal from Western Europe besides Alsace-Lorraine, Luxembourg and that territory they lost to Belgium after WW1.

German troops likely occupy a part of France until war reparations are paid.

I think this is quite generous considering the circumstances.

One I think Hitler would offer idk. No one will even be for certain. I depends on how much he is willing to give up so Britain accepts peace.

There is no way on Earth Hitler is just going to let France go. What about Denmark, Norway? What about Italy and North Africa?

 

[ghyo]

That's what I mean. How do you start, when even the most basic of terms would be unacceptable to both sides?

The Nazi order was predicated on overthrowing the entire global power system.

Hitler was mainly focused on Eastern Europe and the struggle against the USSR. The nazis were fine with Britain and even France keeping their empires. Britain being a fellow Germanic country. The treaty wouldn’t have been harsh on Britain but would have been harsh on France as seen by the armistice they signed.

The fact is we will never know Hitlers terms. Any terms would have been laid out in peace negotiations which Churchill rejected.

 

[thevaliant]

On the 19th July 1940 Hitler made an “appeal to reason” for Britain to accept his peace offer. The offer was rejected tho. No terms were ever given so it’s hard to say what the outcome of the peace would have been.

Hmmmmm...

Assuming the UK Prime Minister is Churchill then, as you say, no 'offer' was made so Churchill will counter with:

Military withdrawal from all occupied territory, and restoration of European borders as at 31st October 1937.
Reduction in size of armed forces, Versailles treaty back in effect.
Nazi party banned, restoration of democratic government.

Hitler will roar with laughter (so will his generals), so Churchill will throw him a bone and after lengthy negotiations will offer to make it 31st October 1938 borders... gotta give them something I suppose.

That'll be Churchill's final offer.

 

[ghyo]

There is no way on Earth Hitler is just going to let France go. What about Denmark, Norway? What about Italy and North Africa?

Hitler never planned to annex France tho. He occupied the coastal areas because he was still at war with Britain and needed to use the ports and airfields to attack Britain. Once the war ended he would have withdrawn from these areas.

Norway and Denmark maybe would have become part of some Germanic confederation where they would be “independent” but under heavy German influence. An example is Denmark. Until 1943 Denmark remained internally independent. They had their own government, elections, even army. However their foreign policy was controlled by Germany.

 

[Finbarr the Fair]

One I think Hitler should have offered:

German withdrawal from Western Europe besides Alsace-Lorraine, Luxembourg and that territory they lost to Belgium after WW1.

German troops likely occupy a part of France until war reparations are paid.

I think this is quite generous considering the circumstances.

One I think Hitler would offer idk. No one will even be for certain. I depends on how much he is willing to give up so Britain accepts peace.

YOU might well think that.

The British Commonwealth and Empire says Feck Off.

Now what?

 

[The Tai-Pan]

Hitler never planned to annex France tho. He occupied the coastal areas because he was still at war with Britain and needed to use the ports and airfields to attack Britain. Once the war ended he would have withdrawn from these areas.

Norway and Denmark maybe would have become part of some Germanic confederation where they would be “independent” but under heavy German influence. An example is Denmark. Until 1943 Denmark remained internally independent. They had their own government, elections, even army. However their foreign policy was controlled by Germany.

If you believe that, then we are done here.

 

[HelloThere]

I think that is a very far fetch theory. I don’t think if Germany secured a peace with Britain they would declare war again.

But that's what Britain did during the Napoleonic wars?!