Two Suns Shall Set: A 20th-Century TL Without Nazis

[AeroTheZealousOne]

Aero, I appreciate you sharing your perspective with us as a writer, but I have to disagree with you on this one. I thought this update was great! The level of detail and care you put into this timeline is inspiring. I'm loving the wide-lens, worldwide perspective and am very excited to see where you take us next. Keep up the great work!

@President_Lincoln, I am incredibly honored by your presence here, and I thank you very much for your encouragement, honesty, abd support as a fellow writer, colleague, and friend! To have this timeline be called "inspiring" is nothing short of a compliment! Blue Skies in Camelot, which the rest of you should go read right now if you haven't already, has been one of many influences on the development of this timeline, particularly when it comes to writing about pop culture. This is my first timeline, and I've learned quite a bit from working on it about plausibility and I've had some fun taking the good with the bad. And naturally, it's not as cheery or as optimistic as BSiC, but it's not necessarily as cursed, doomed, or otherwise grimdark as some of the universes explored and posted about on this site so far.

Additionally, I recognize that I have been somewhat hard on myself in recent months. I should definitely lay that off, and it's not really all that fair for me to do so in the long run.

With this, I officially welcome you aboard!

(Edited to fix a minor typo.)

 

[TheDetailer]

@President_Lincoln, I am incredibly honored by your presence here, and I thank you very much for your encouragement, honesty, abd support as a fellow writer, colleague, and friend! To have this timeline be called "inspiring" is nothing short of a compliment! Blue Skies in Camelot, which the rest of you should go read right now if you haven't already, has been one of many influences on the development of this timeline, particularly when it comes to writing about pop culture. This is my first timeline, and I've learned quite a bit from working on it about plausibility and I've had some fun taking the good with the bad. And naturally, it's not as cheery or as optimistic as BSiC, but it's not necessarily as cursed, doomed, or otherwise grimdark as some of the universes explored and posted about on this site so far.

Additionally, recognize that I have been somewhat hard on myself in recent months. I should definitely lay that off, and it's not really all that fair for me to do so in the long run.

With this, I officially welcome you aboard!

Ye!

What is this? A crossover episode?

 

[AeroTheZealousOne]

Ye!

What is this? A crossover episode?

We might have to get together sometime to write one of those, even if it's for a subtle April Fool's joke.

 

[andry2806]

Partido Inoltrare

Little help from an Italian native speaker: it's "Partito", not "Partido". Also, "Partito Inoltrare" sounds pretty wrong in Italian...the problem is that the literal translation for "forward" is "avanti", which alone could be a fine name for a party, but there's already one important "Avanti": the official newspaper of the Italian Socialist Party since the beginning of the XX century, so it's difficult a centrist party would actually choose that name. Some names that can express in Italian what "Forward Party" means can be "Partito dell'Avvenire" ("avvenire" doesn't really have a translation in English according to Google Translate, but it can be closely approssimated to "future". It also sounds very fancy and hopeful), "Nuova Italia" (New Italy), or "Muoversi" ("moving").

 

[AeroTheZealousOne]

Little help from an Italian native speaker: it's "Partito", not "Partido". Also, "Partito Inoltrare" sounds pretty wrong in Italian...the problem is that the literal translation for "forward" is "avanti", which alone could be a fine name for a party, but there's already one important "Avanti": the official newspaper of the Italian Socialist Party since the beginning of the XX century, so it's difficult a centrist party would actually choose that name. Some names that can express in Italian what "Forward Party" means can be "Partito dell'Avvenire" ("avvenire" doesn't really have a translation in English according to Google Translate, but it can be closely approssimated to "future". It also sounds very fancy and hopeful), "Nuova Italia" (New Italy), or "Muoversi" ("moving").

Oops! I'll go fix this right away. Thank you very much for pointing this out!

And for the record, the new name of "Partito Nuova Italia" rolls off the tongue much better in my view.

 

[President_Lincoln]

@President_Lincoln, I am incredibly honored by your presence here, and I thank you very much for your encouragement, honesty, abd support as a fellow writer, colleague, and friend! To have this timeline be called "inspiring" is nothing short of a compliment! Blue Skies in Camelot, which the rest of you should go read right now if you haven't already, has been one of many influences on the development of this timeline, particularly when it comes to writing about pop culture. This is my first timeline, and I've learned quite a bit from working on it about plausibility and I've had some fun taking the good with the bad. And naturally, it's not as cheery or as optimistic as BSiC, but it's not necessarily as cursed, doomed, or otherwise grimdark as some of the universes explored and posted about on this site so far.

Additionally, I recognize that I have been somewhat hard on myself in recent months. I should definitely lay that off, and it's not really all that fair for me to do so in the long run.

With this, I officially welcome you aboard!

(Edited to fix a minor typo.)

You're very welcome, Aero! I'm always happy to see a new update to Two Suns Shall Set and try to read them (really, gobble them up) as quickly as I can. You're too kind, both with your words about me and Blue Skies in Camelot, but I deeply appreciate them all, and want to say: All of that, right back at you! I'm no expert by any means, but I think all creative writing is really a constant work in progress. I know I'm still learning a ton every time I update BSiC, so I definitely relate to what you're saying here. I personally enjoy the tone you have set in Two Suns a lot. Striking a balance between the ups and downs of history is quite the act, and I think you're doing a great job with it.

Ye!

What is this? A crossover episode?

We might have to get together sometime to write one of those, even if it's for a subtle April Fool's joke.

I would LOVE to be a part of any kind of crossover you can cook up, @AeroTheZealousOne. In the meantime, keep on rockin'!

 

[TheDetailer]

I would LOVE to be a part of any kind of crossover you can cook up, @AeroTheZealousOne. In the meantime, keep on rockin'!

How exactly this would work is up in the air, but it would be cool to see nonetheless!

*Guitar noises*

 

[BigBlueBox]

What’s happening with Libya’s oil right now? I’m assuming Italian companies still owned it even after independence. But now that Libya had a civil war and Balkanized, is Italy still in control of it? Also, what happened to the Italian colonists?

 

[DAv]

Very good update and looking into the effects of the Second Great Depression. Seems like there's plenty of knock on effects and great disruption, although it seems worse things are yet to come.. Hints of wars in the Middle East aren't exactly good, especially with nuclear weapons used.

 

[TheDetailer]

I think I might have an obsession with ISOTing stuff from this timeline into ISOT map-games...

 

[AeroTheZealousOne]

You're very welcome, Aero! I'm always happy to see a new update to Two Suns Shall Set and try to read them (really, gobble them up) as quickly as I can. You're too kind, both with your words about me and Blue Skies in Camelot, but I deeply appreciate them all, and want to say: All of that, right back at you! I'm no expert by any means, but I think all creative writing is really a constant work in progress. I know I'm still learning a ton every time I update BSiC, so I definitely relate to what you're saying here. I personally enjoy the tone you have set in Two Suns a lot. Striking a balance between the ups and downs of history is quite the act, and I think you're doing a great job with it.

I appreciate this immensely!

I would LOVE to be a part of any kind of crossover you can cook up, @AeroTheZealousOne. In the meantime, keep on rockin'!

If you come up with anything, even if it's not a crossover or is simply a collaborative project, send it my way and we'll go from there! Until then, keep on the sunny side of life, man!

What’s happening with Libya’s oil right now? I’m assuming Italian companies still owned it even after independence. But now that Libya had a civil war and Balkanized, is Italy still in control of it? Also, what happened to the Italian colonists?

The companies are kind of PO'd at the Italian government for the carelessness in the whole process of establishing Libyan independence. Italy (and by extension, the rest of the Mediterranean Pact) had a minor energy crisis in 1977 but it would have been worse if it weren't for the, to put it politely, "private military contractors" in guarding the tanker trucks and most of the major refineries in the three post-Libyan administrations. Speaking of which, none of the three are in any position to nationalize any such non-protected facilities without expecting any sort of retribution from the corporate boards. Or worse, the administration in Rome.

Many of the Italian colonists hightailed it out of there when the fighting started. Those that didn't were too poor to do so or had some sentimental reasons for staying behind.

Very good update and looking into the effects of the Second Great Depression. Seems like there's plenty of knock on effects and great disruption, although it seems worse things are yet to come.. Hints of wars in the Middle East aren't exactly good, especially with nuclear weapons used.

The Middle East can't catch get a break in any alternate history setting, can it? This world is no exception, though sometime after the bombs drop and the Palestine Conflict is somehow settled things should calm down considerably. There are definitely a metric ton of effects from the economic crash that are going to change this world, for better and for worse.

If if makes you folks feel any better it won't be For All Time levels of radioactive mess in this part of the world, and it will be a while after the scope of this timeline before the quality of life in the region goes up.

I think I might have an obsession with ISOTing stuff from this timeline into ISOT map-games...

I couldn't help not notice! Still, keep mentioning me when you do so, I love reading about whatever you whip up.



Now, while working on the next updates, I have a few questions and story elements that I wanted to outsource to you, the readers. One of them is rather trivial, the other one...!

 

[AeroTheZealousOne]

Oh, a teaser involving some aged-up U.S. Presidents and a murderous dictator from the early stages of the Soviet Civil War, that's all. No set period of time when any of them were taken ITTL just yet.



Extra coolness points to whoever can guess all three correctly!

 

[BigBlueBox]

Oh, a teaser involving some aged-up U.S. Presidents and a murderous dictator from the early stages of the Soviet Civil War, that's all. No set period of time when any of them were taken ITTL just yet.

View attachment 507723View attachment 507724View attachment 507725

Extra coolness points to whoever can guess all three correctly!

Guy on the right looks kind of like George H.W. Bush. Guy on the left is Yezhov. I couldn't tell who the guy in the middle is supposed to be, but Google Images says it's James Dean.

 

[TheDetailer]

Oh, a teaser involving some aged-up U.S. Presidents and a murderous dictator from the early stages of the Soviet Civil War, that's all. No set period of time when any of them were taken ITTL just yet.

View attachment 507723View attachment 507724View attachment 507725

Extra coolness points to whoever can guess all three correctly!

The first guy looks like Joseph P. Kennedy Jr. to me.

 

[AeroTheZealousOne]

Guy on the right looks kind of like George H.W. Bush. Guy on the left is Yezhov. I couldn't tell who the guy in the middle is supposed to be, but Google Images says it's James Dean.

The first guy looks like Joseph P. Kennedy Jr. to me.

In order, from left to right: Joseph P. Kennedy Jr (taken in 1968), James B. Dean (circa 1984, on the campaign trail), Nikolai Yezhov (as Premier in the late 1950s). I will say that President James Dean is a recycled idea from the defunct A Different Sound of Silence, but here he never acted in any movies and went into law school instead, and as of 1977 is considering a run for Congress in his home state of Indiana as a Republican. JPK Jr. is still alive without U.S. involvement in World War II, as much of a cliche as it might be to have him appear as a President.

Speaking of Presidents, if I ever rewrite this timeline I'll keep Roosevelt alive for a while longer, just killing him off like that is a tad overdone and seeing his (two-term) Presidency play out without Germany losing its mind would probably be fascinating.

 

[AeroTheZealousOne]

I've had a few questions in the back of my mind about this timeline that I've wanted to answer, seeing as I'm not sure what I want to do for the next chapter just yet. I should really be cramming for finals right about now but I thought this small update couldn't hurt too much. It goes over some of the darker things I've neglected to cover so far ITTL, then lightens up and covers some foreign languages and changed national capitals.

• Soviet "population transfers" went mostly as OTL, with some exceptions. The Baltic states were subjected to this on a much smaller scale than OTL due to falling within the Soviet Union's borders a little later than OTL, whereas "treasonous" Ukrainians and Crimean Tatars were resettled to Central Asia on the personal orders of Stalin. Future administrations would ensure that such programs are not repeated, and that reparations would be offered "as soon as possible".

• Ethnic Koreans that have lived on Seishūtō (formerly known as Jeju Island) have since been forcibly resettled to the peninsula during the late 1940s after a massive protest and replaced with settlers from the Home Islands, ensuring that any future (unlikely) granting of independence to Korea will result in Japan maintaining a permanent grip over the island. Likewise, Takeshima (formerly Dokdo) and Utsuryo-do (formerly Ulleung-do) are now entirely inhabited by individuals of Japanese descent. These heinous bouts of what has become known as "ethnic cleansing" are not isolated to Korea. Taiwan has been subjected to a quiet one over the course of the 1950s and 1960s, with its native and Chinese populations forcibly deported to mainland China under pain of treason. Another such program is planned for the ex-Soviet territories granted to Japan in the 1957 Treaty of Warsaw, in the hopes that the promise of a new life from the government will help to alleviate tensions on the Home Islands, as well as serve to integrate the Amur region into Japan proper.[1]
  
  
• Japanese has replaced Korean as the dominant language on the Korean peninsula, with over three-fourths of the population using Japanese in daily activities. The Korean language is often confined to rural communities, everyday conversation between the elderly, and Soviet-backed hardline revolutionaries exiled from the peninsula and hiding out somewhere in Siberia or even Manchuria. Korean independence from Japan is but a pipe dream at this, seeing as displays of Korean nationalism have been stamped out, that there is no real parliamentary representation of the Korean people on the Home Islands and that their cultural heritage has been severely eroded over the decades by the administration.

• Irish Gaelic has received a minor renewal in recent years, and while programs to teach the language have had mixed success, more and more poems are appearing in the language for the first time in centuries. The North is still chock-full of people who would prefer to be part of the United Kingdom, and some leave Ireland to do so, whereas others stay and accept the new status quo in Ulster, with Protestants given the same rights as Catholics and Ireland embracing secularism in its government.

• The "Chu Nom" script for the Vietnamese Language is no longer commonly used, now replaced with a Latin alphabet developed by French Jesuits. The use of Chinese Characters in Vietnamese is now confined to scholarly study, something that's not happening a whole lot in 1970s Vietnam.

• "Serbo-Croatian" is not defined as a unified language, nor has this term been in any form of use since the days of Yugoslavia. Phrasebooks refer to it as "Serbian" in regards to the eastern monarchy, and simply "Bosno-Croatian" for the communist limited democracy that consists of its western neighbor, inconveniently leaving out the Serbian minority near the eastern border and the fact that Slovenian is actually a language, despite its similarities and mutual intelligibility with Croatian and Bosnian dialects.

• The capital of the Socialist Republic of Illyria has, until now, not been specified. That city, a relatively central location in the country, is the postwar boom town of Banja Luka.

• The capital of the Second Chinese Soviet Republic (North China) is in Lanzhou. Beijing is still in the hands of South China's government, though it remains dangerously close to the border with the Japanese puppet government of Manshūkoku.

• The capital of the Reorganized Republican Civil Government of China (South China) is Nanjing.

• The Federal Republic of Brazil has a new capital: Brasilia. Still designed by Oscar Niemeyer and others, though the designs and constructions are different enough OTL that it would be difficult to recognize the city as it stands.
  The Post-Italian colonial capitals are as follows: Tripoli, the former seat of the Libyan government and of the Italian colonial administration, is predictably in the hands of Tripolitania, which has since declared the city its new capital in turn. The oasis city of Sabha stands as the capital of Fezzan, and Benghazi serves this role for Cyrenaica. Each one's national borders correspond to the OTL subdivisions. Ethiopia's military state rules from Addis Ababa.

• The Post-Romanian capitals are as follows: Moldavia governs from Chisinau; Transylvania from Cluj; and Wallachia from the old Legionary capital of Bucharest. All three capitals still hold a small foreign military presence of at most one thousand troops to work as peacekeepers and as a deterrent for the governments to act independently of the Mediterranean Pact.[2]

• All ex-Soviet nations govern from their OTL capitals. Iberia is administered from Toledo as the result of a Portuguese compromise in the mid-1950s.

[1] With Imperial Japan sticking around ITTL, I'm not sure how far they would have gone. Maybe this dark trend is a bit of an over-exaggeration of what probably could have happened, but regardlessly this is particularly painful in and of itself, seeing as I have a bit of a soft spot for Korean history and culture, and seeing as Korea was screwed badly enough IOTL from occupation to being cut in two as part of an ideological conflict, a division that continues to the present day. I was not looking to make this timeline a Korea-screw, but that's pretty much what has happened so far. And though the imperial regime is beginning to falter, everyone knows that when it ends, it will not end softly. As for Amur itself, it's still populated predominantly by Russians, with a sizeable number of anti-communists settling in the area as well.
[2] Moldavia is a small exception to this rule. Moldavia, as part of the European Entente (or just the "Entente", the prefix looks more and more ridiculous as the years go by) gets a looser leash due to its transformation into a relatively free constitutional monarchy and the freest country in Eastern Europe.

 

[TheDetailer]

Wojtek is a no-bear-dy ITTL

I have now only gotten this joke.

*Facepalm*

 

[AeroTheZealousOne]

I have now only gotten this joke.

*Facepalm*

My writing within the story and sometimes in pieces like these is ofttimes filled with jokes, references, and ahistorical allusions alike. This one, however, I couldn't in good conscience pass up.

 

[haider najib]

Im really upset the facists won't get smashed instead in 40 years people will look back at them such as the italians here and see them as good guys.

I would like to add some critism to your saudi arabia you will never get anti religious policy or atheist looking policy as soon as someone suggest them they will be linched islam is too ingrained in muslim arab identity and even with 'anti colonist attitude' your not going to get anti religion policy if anything it hurts the cause. Will it be wahhabists no but rather a different strain of Sunni islam maybe akin to the caliphate movement in india. Moreover some things i feel 'emaulate french revolution' is a bit overblown saudi arabia and arab culture in general is very tribal tied look to Afghanistan people will not tolerate the tribes being targetted, moreover destruction of monarchist symbols, islam much more friendly to monarchy.

 

[AeroTheZealousOne]

Im really upset the facists won't get smashed instead in 40 years people will look back at them such as the italians here and see them as good guys.

I would like to add some critism to your saudi arabia you will never get anti religious policy or atheist looking policy as soon as someone suggest them they will be linched islam is too ingrained in muslim arab identity and even with 'anti colonist attitude' your not going to get anti religion policy if anything it hurts the cause. Will it be wahhabists no but rather a different strain of Sunni islam maybe akin to the caliphate movement in india. Moreover some things i feel 'emaulate french revolution' is a bit overblown saudi arabia and arab culture in general is very tribal tied look to Afghanistan people will not tolerate the tribes being targetted, moreover destruction of monarchist symbols, islam much more friendly to monarchy.

Italian-style fascism hasn't been tossed into the dustbin of history, but it kind of moderated following Mussolini's death and did not suffer the stigma of being "fascist" like it did in our world. As such, the ideology is still popular and there are more than a few adherents around the world, with Japan being classifies as the nation that would fit such a label the closest.

Regarding Arabia... I'm not exactly sure what I was thinking other than some shoddy justification for a 1970s economic crisis that has been planned since the beginning of the timeline as well as the typical "rogue state screwing things up" narrative that I just pulled out of nowhere. Upon further research and looking at the valid points you made... It appears what I wrote in regards to this was not onmy rather ignorant of history and historical trends, but quite borderline ASB. Oh dear.

So a rewrite of part of Chapter 16 and a good third of Chapter 17 is in order, but I remain completely uncertain as to how I want to proceed. The Soviet Union is a little too preoccupied rebuilding to actually fund foreign rebellions, the United States doesn't care about anything outside of it's hemisphere for the moment, the countries of Europe have been maintaining imperialism for considerably longer than OTL, Japan doesn't care too much about the Middle East, though I need to figure out how they're going to get their oil and if the United States still exports some or not.

For all intents and purposes, at this time Republican Arabia and Republican Oman are both no longer canon, but until I write around that then the original text will stay.