Two Suns Shall Set: A 20th-Century TL Without Nazis

[TheDetailer]

RIP Margaret Burbidge (1919-2020)

 

[AeroTheZealousOne]

RIP Margaret Burbidge (1919-2020)

Burbidge ITTL is a British astrophysicist who doesn't get American citizenship ITTL for various reasons. Otherwise her work is very similar to OTL in spite of the numerous butterflies that have affected this universe, and as per OTL she'll pass away from old age in October of 2020, about a good two decades after the span of the main timeline.

 

[TheDetailer]

Burbidge ITTL is a British astrophysicist who doesn't get American citizenship ITTL for various reasons. Otherwise her work is very similar to OTL in spite of the numerous butterflies that have affected this universe, and as per OTL she'll pass away from old age in October of 2020, about a good two decades after the span of the main timeline.

Well that's good to know

 

[AeroTheZealousOne]

Chapter 19 is slowly underway, this semester is almost over and the situation isn't the greatest, but I should have much more time and motivation to put to Two Suns Shall Set. I'll wrap up the 1970s, cover the Middle East in more detail, show the cracks forming in the Mediterranean Pact, and cover the bulk of RFK's tenure.

Following that is the Pop Culture update that I usually do every five chapters, and then after that is the bonus update detailing the situations of various countries and peoples. Frankly, I could add more detail to them in my view, but I'll save it for a potential "2.0" of this timeline down the road, probably to be released in 202X. And then after that we'll jump into the 1980s. It's not going to be a tubular decade, that I can tell you. The Russians might be doing well enough for themselves, and Brazil may finally be reaching a point in their history where they can be considered a regional power in their own right, but the near future of Asia does not look bright, as black clouds roll across the horizon.

The United States is slowly trudging into the modern era and leaving behind a number of prejudices that defined the country in the past, though it still has a very long way to go. And is devolution in Britain's future? What about Germany, who took a different path and showed the world another example of constitutionalism and monarchism being compatible with each other in forming a strong state?

Soon, much will be revealed. And some of those who have had it comparatively good for a while will find that their luck is slowly running out...

(Author's Note: Thank you for sticking around after all this time! I appreciate it.)

 

[AeroTheZealousOne]

It's back! After four months of burnout, I finally have the drive to write again. Not regularly mind you, but there's still so much I need to fix and inconsistencies to clear out. New update coming soon, but here's some teasers for future chapters, in no particular order and with very limited context. Minor spoilers, nothing story-ruining though:

"Following the crisis over Albania and this displeasing resolution for most countries involved, the Mediterranean Pact's days were officially numbered. Italy had already distanced itself from the organization but it wasn't until now that it officially announced its withdrawal and plans to integrate itself with the European Entente's successor, the European Confederation...

...Albania would survive the territorial changes that finally gave Serbia and Greece a shared land border, but the Pact was left much weaker now that Rome was out of the picture. No longer a real "fifth wheel" in politics between Japan's crumbling bloc, a slowly resurgent Russia, an increasingly close-knit mainland Europe, and a United States that was exiting its relative isolationism for the first time since World War I, the Pact was just a collection of countries in the Balkans with shared interests and no member states with a nuclear deterrent. Not that anyone was going to invade them at any point in time, but the leverage would have been nice to have..."

"...for Japan, the empire was falling apart at the seams. The inability to assert any real dominance over its in-name-only "puppet" government in China which has acted rather independently of Tokyo since 1973 as well as renewed rebellion over what was thought to be a thoroughly pacified Korea shook the government to the core.

There was no recovery at all from the Crash of '73. There was no signs of hope for the ailing government. Japan has been known to the West as the "Land of the Rising Sun", but that was fading from the sky, and it was fading quickly. All of this is what caused a brief moment of cooperation between the Army, Navy, and Air Force in securing the city of Tokyo, arresting (and later 'disappearing') many of those involved in civil service and local governance, and quickly declaring a military junta. Emperor Akihito, still reeling from the unexpected death of his father earlier this year like much of the rest of the country, had a choice to make: Would he support the new self-declared "Military Committee", or would be attempt to assert his power by demanding that they stand down? Both options were quite feasible, and if he were able to make a statement on the matter, it is quite possible that this important crisis could have resolved itself in the short term..."

"Brazil's emergence as a prominent country on the world stage went mostly unnoticed, but over the course of the 1990s, that began to change. The country began exporting like crazy, and while a lot of their items lacked the standards of quality that European, American, or even pre-1970s Japanese manufacturing held, what mattered was the quantity, and what mattered even more were those who would be the most willing to buy refrigerators, air conditioners, cheap automobiles, and even inexpensive home computer systems from the largest country in the small but increasingly mighty "Lusosphere".

Anything manufactured in Dortmund could have an inexpensive, legally distinct knock-off assembled in Fortaleza for one-third of the price, five-eights of the quality standard, and three-fifths of the standard retail price in the early 1990s. This was partially thanks to a dearth of labor protections, which were not largely and quietly repealed during the 1980s as a way to undermine foreign competition.[1] Brazil wouldn't have a particularly good reputation when it came to anything state-of-the-art made for consumers, but as long as it worked as advertised, the buyers were happy. International markets weren't necessarily saturated with Brazillian merchandise, but a very noticeable uptick in knick-knacks and consumer goods would be spotted in stores across the world, from the street markets of a city like Ningbo to small sections of department stores in the United States to even 'foreign goods sections' of hypermarkets in France, Czechoslovakia, and Estonia, among countless others across Europe, in a marked reversal of protectionist economic trends in earlier decades..."

"...it was a British science fiction film based on the obscure Illyrian sci-fi book Jezgra originally published in 1984 that would become the unexpected blockbuster hit of 1998, both in the United Kingdom as well as in cinemas across the world. The Core, a film about... well, the Earth's Core and the Electromagnetic Field surrounding the planet becoming unstable would spark a renewed interest in disaster movies, which have since fallen out of taste with various world events in 1986, 1988, and 1991. The movie would be praised for incredible acting, surprisingly accurate science, the special effects (including infamous scenes showing the wholesale devasation of Wellington, Sarajevo, Leningrad, and Detroit) and would become the textbook example of 'how to make a really good science fiction/disaster flick', even with the implausible premise and the impossible journey into the Earth's Core to attempt to make everything right again[1]. The Core would set box office records that wouldn't be broken until 2005's mystery thriller Lightfoot..."

CHIEF JUSTICE BROWN: "Now raise your right hand and repeat after me: 'I, James Byron Dean, do solemnly swear...'"
PRESIDENT-ELECT JAMES DEAN: "I, James Byron Dean, do solemnly swear..."

-excerpted from the inauguration of President James Dean on January 20, 1985

[1] Brazil at this point is effectively a smaller-scale version of OTL's People's Republic of China but without a Communist Party and with some more political freedom. It's the closest thing any nation has come to what Murray Rothbard defines as "libertarianism" while still being a ways off. This state of affairs won't last forever, of course... but that's another story for another time.
[2] Basically a full inverse of 2003 film The Core. TTL's counterpart has a completely different cast, crew, plotline, and the like with almost every star in it being original to TTL (aside from maybe a brief cameo by John Lennon or one of the members of OTL's Monty Python who exist ITTL).



That's all for right now, so feel free to speculate on the world beyond the 1970s. Update coming this weekend sometime before the end of 2020 to finally wrap this depressive decade up and move to an even more depressing decade. You heard me right, an honest-to-goodness new chapter is in the works and will be posted this weekend.

I PROMISE.

(Well, so much for that. I'm incredibly garbage at deadlines! But I'm alive, and so is the timeline. That's what matters.)

 

[TheDetailer]

As someone who has not been active on this thread for awhile, due to some factors both within and outside the form, and wanting to kickstart this thread again, all I can say is that I wish Aero luck on completing the next chapter of his story.

 

[AeroTheZealousOne]

As someone who has not been active on this thread for awhile, due to some factors both within and outside the form, and wanting to kickstart this thread again, all I can say is that I wish Aero luck on completing the next chapter of his story.

I appreciate it! I've been quite terrible about my own personal deadlines, and the motivation hasn't necessarily been there between everything going on in the world and some personal stuff I'm trying to sort out. As such I haven't been active on a whole lot of threads (except perhaps the one for Hearts of Iron IV mod The New Order, a rather grim and mostly dystopic but still hopeful mod that released a few weeks back that I've been playing quite a bit in my spare time). If you're familiar with it you might have noticed multiple influences from it on my work (e.g. the Soviet Civil War being, in retrospect, moderately inspired by a major civil war from that scenario.

The irony, of course, being that Nazism isn't a thing at all in the world of Two Suns Shall Set for reasons everyone who's even taken a small glimpse at this thread might be able to guess rather quickly. Either way, once I'm back into a groove and feel up to writing again for real and not fake real, I'll surprise everyone here on the thread with an unexpected update. I really don't want to declare an official hiatus because that just makes it easier for me to informally discontinue the work and there never being any closure to the story, but that's kind of the limbo both this timeline and myself are in right now.

Hope you and everyone else here understand,

 

[Ficboy]

I appreciate it! I've been quite terrible about my own personal deadlines, and the motivation hasn't necessarily been there between everything going on in the world and some personal stuff I'm trying to sort out. As such I haven't been active on a whole lot of threads (except perhaps the one for Hearts of Iron IV mod The New Order, a rather grim and mostly dystopic but still hopeful mod that released a few weeks back that I've been playing quite a bit in my spare time). If you're familiar with it you might have noticed multiple influences from it on my work (e.g. the Soviet Civil War being, in retrospect, moderately inspired by a major civil war from that scenario.

The irony, of course, being that Nazism isn't a thing at all in the world of Two Suns Shall Set for reasons everyone who's even taken a small glimpse at this thread might be able to guess rather quickly. Either way, once I'm back into a groove and feel up to writing again for real and not fake real, I'll surprise everyone here on the thread with an unexpected update. I really don't want to declare an official hiatus because that just makes it easier for me to informally discontinue the work and there never being any closure to the story, but that's kind of the limbo both this timeline and myself are in right now.

Hope you and everyone else here understand,

I wonder if Star Wars even exists like OTL. It might be the same with a few minor changes.

 

[AeroTheZealousOne]

I wonder if Star Wars even exists like OTL. It might be the same with a few minor changes.

Depends on the mindset of George Lucas and the entirely different world he lives in. He's still born and lives ITTL, that I'll certainly say, but after about fifty years or so of butterflies I can almost guarantee that Star Wars, in whatever form or analogue of it that may or may not show up ITTL, will be difficult to recognize compared to its OTL incarnation. Who knows, maybe Lucas won't even have a role in producing or directing it.

 

[Ficboy]

Depends on the mindset of George Lucas and the entirely different world he lives in. He's still born and lives ITTL, that I'll certainly say, but after about fifty years or so of butterflies I can almost guarantee that Star Wars, in whatever form or analogue of it that may or may not show up ITTL, will be difficult to recognize compared to its OTL incarnation. Who knows, maybe Lucas won't even have a role in producing or directing it.

Star Wars might still end up being mostly the same as is like OTL. After all Star Wars has a number of inspirations which included World War II specifically the rise and fall of democracies and dictatorships. Since Legionary Romania and the Soviet Union fulfill the role of Nazi Germany especially the former, the Galactic Empire and Emperor Sheev Palpatine/Darth Sidious will likely be based off both infamous regimes. I'm tempting to ask that the Dodgers relocate to Los Angeles like OTL since I know a bit more about sports compared to you and some of the other stuff I think needs to be retconned a bit like you've done with Kim II-Sung.

 

[TheDetailer]

He's still born and lives ITTL, that I'll certainly say

Nice 👌

 

[TheDetailer]

Star Wars might still end up being mostly the same as is like OTL. After all Star Wars has a number of inspirations which included World War II specifically the rise and fall of democracies and dictatorships. Since Legionary Romania and the Soviet Union fulfill the role of Nazi Germany especially the former, the Galactic Empire and Emperor Sheev Palpatine/Darth Sidious will likely be based off both infamous regimes. I'm tempting to ask that the Dodgers relocate to Los Angeles like OTL since I know a bit more about sports compared to you and some of the other stuff I think needs to be retconned a bit like you've done with Kim II-Sung.

I know Romania became the closet thing compared to Nazi Germany ITTL, but I feel like due to Romania being a minor country compared to Germany, and that it didn't nearly conquer an entire continent like the Nazis IOTL (I think they went to war with Hungary and Bulgaria and that was it), I feel as if the Leginoraies wouldn't have the same amount of star-power compared to the Nazis in terms of near-universal influence on future culture and fiction. Same level of evil? Yes. Same impact on the whole of the World? I don't really think so.

Not to say there can't be inspirations taken from them, as they are basically the closest to a genocidal racialist-fascist regime this world will get, and I do think that the crimes of the Legionary regime will somewhat inspire a similar reaction that the Holocaust had IOTL, but I don't think Corndeau is anywhere near the destructiveness and world impact that Hitler had.

 

[Ficboy]

I know Romania became the closet thing compared to Nazi Germany ITTL, but I feel like due to Romania being a minor country compared to Germany, and that it didn't nearly conquer an entire continent like the Nazis IOTL (I think they went to war with Hungary and Bulgaria and that was it), I feel as if the Leginoraies wouldn't have the same amount of star-power compared to the Nazis in terms of near-universal influence on future culture and fiction. Same level of evil? Yes. Same impact on the whole of the World? I don't really think so.

Not to say there can't be inspirations taken from them, as they are basically the closest to a genocidal racialist-fascist regime this world will get, and I do think that the crimes of the Legionary regime will somewhat inspire a similar reaction that the Holocaust had IOTL, but I don't think Corndeau is anywhere near the destructiveness and world impact that Hitler had.

Seeing how George Orwell or Eric Blair as he is known in this universe took inspiration from Legionary Romania and the Soviet Union for his novel Nineteen Ninety-Five, it's likely this universe's version of Star Wars will more or less go down this route.

 

[AeroTheZealousOne]

Star Wars might still end up being mostly the same as is like OTL. After all Star Wars has a number of inspirations which included World War II specifically the rise and fall of democracies and dictatorships. Since Legionary Romania and the Soviet Union fulfill the role of Nazi Germany especially the former, the Galactic Empire and Emperor Sheev Palpatine/Darth Sidious will likely be based off both infamous regimes. I'm tempting to ask that the Dodgers relocate to Los Angeles like OTL since I know a bit more about sports compared to you and some of the other stuff I think needs to be retconned a bit like you've done with Kim II-Sung.

Let me put it this way: While I'm not necessarily taking requests to change items in my own work set in a fictional setting (though suggestions are welcome), I do nonetheless recognize that there are numerous flaws in some parts of the writing, some things I'm not entirely proud of, and some details I left out or added too much on. And there are a few things that were quietly handwaved without me doing much research into it, and as such that needs fixed too. I won't exactly change everything you said that should or shouldn't be changed, but I'm glad you're taking an interest to the timeline and I'm glad to have you aboard!

I'll also acknowledge that a metric fuckton of stuff does indeed need retconned (both publicly and... less publicly) but that's more because of colossal overlookings of various things on my own end during the writing process about a year and a half ago.

The main reason I haven't gotten around to it is a lack of internal motivation on my own end. I'm still interested in seeing this timeline through (and it's actually going to veer more into "dystopia" than "semi-dystopia" in some parts once the 1980s get into gear but I'm also rethinking some of these as of now unrevealed massive plot twists may or may not be happening, either.)

Nice 👌

I'm sorry, I don't remember bringing up the funny sex number in any capacity.

I know Romania became the closet thing compared to Nazi Germany ITTL, but I feel like due to Romania being a minor country compared to Germany, and that it didn't nearly conquer an entire continent like the Nazis IOTL (I think they went to war with Hungary and Bulgaria and that was it), I feel as if the Leginoraies wouldn't have the same amount of star-power compared to the Nazis in terms of near-universal influence on future culture and fiction. Same level of evil? Yes. Same impact on the whole of the World? I don't really think so.

Not to say there can't be inspirations taken from them, as they are basically the closest to a genocidal racialist-fascist regime this world will get, and I do think that the crimes of the Legionary regime will somewhat inspire a similar reaction that the Holocaust had IOTL, but I don't think Corndeau is anywhere near the destructiveness and world impact that Hitler had.

Your analysis is spot-on. The evils committed were confined to a smaller geographical area, but so was the intensity of said evils. (EDIT: That isn't to say that it was less intense than OTL in comparison, just a lot more evil generally confined to a smaller geographical area. There will be no denial of egregious crimes against humanity from yours truly.) Less people may have died overall from the Legionary jackboot but I'll leave the more gruesome details to the imagination, considering I don't get any joy from describing such nitty-gritty.

(On another mostly related note, "De-Legionization" (which might not be the actual term for it, might come up with something better) means that in Moldavia there is little to no apologism and whitewashing of the atrocities committed during the late thirties, across the entirety of the 1940s, and throughout much of the year 1950. Transylvania's de-Legionization measures were about four-fifths as strong as Moldavias but they had a similar effect. Wallachia, the pro-Bulgarian puppet dictatorship in all but name chose instead to focus largely on the suppression of Romanian nationalism and give both instigators of local genocide and collaborators lots and lots of bullets applied liberally. Their de-Legionization was more like West Germany's de-Nazification IOTL but with less democracy and overall about halfway less thorough, so there's simmering stuff beneath that doesn't really threaten the state or the perpetual "temporary" Bulgarian puppet government. For now.)

Seeing how George Orwell or Eric Blair as he is known in this universe took inspiration from Legionary Romania and the Soviet Union for his novel Nineteen Ninety-Five, it's likely this universe's version of Star Wars will more or less go down this route.

TTL's Star Wars parallel, should it exist, will be covered in Chapter 20, the 1970s Popular Culture update, coming hopefully before the end of 2021 or something. Now as to whether or not it will be successful at the box office is another story.

Orwell's book ITTL has a different plot with entirely different fictional characters but nonetheless conveys a message similar to that of its OTL counterpart written somewhat earlier. It's also similarly misinterpreted as warning against the dangers of socialism, which is funny considering George Orwell's own political leanings, as much as that is another story for another time:

Spoiler

" Eric Arthur Blair (25 June 1903 – 21 January 1950),[1] known by his pen name George Orwell, was an English novelist, essayist, journalist and critic.[2] His work is characterised by lucid prose, biting social criticism, opposition to totalitarianism, and outspoken support of democratic socialism.[3][4][5][6]"

 

[Ficboy]

Let me put it this way: While I'm not necessarily taking requests to change items in my own work set in a fictional setting (though suggestions are welcome), I do nonetheless recognize that there are numerous flaws in some parts of the writing, some things I'm not entirely proud of, and some details I left out or added too much on. And there are a few things that were quietly handwaved without me doing much research into it, and as such that needs fixed too. I won't exactly change everything you said that should or shouldn't be changed, but I'm glad you're taking an interest to the timeline and I'm glad to have you aboard!

I'll also acknowledge that a metric fuckton of stuff does indeed need retconned (both publicly and... less publicly) but that's more because of colossal overlookings of various things on my own end during the writing process about a year and a half ago.

The main reason I haven't gotten around to it is a lack of internal motivation on my own end. I'm still interested in seeing this timeline through (and it's actually going to veer more into "dystopia" than "semi-dystopia" in some parts once the 1980s get into gear but I'm also rethinking some of these as of now unrevealed massive plot twists may or may not be happening, either.)



I'm sorry, I don't remember bringing up the funny sex number in any capacity.



Your analysis is spot-on. The evils committed were confined to a smaller geographical area, but so was the intensity of said evils. Less people may have died overall from the Legionary jackboot but I'll leave the more gruesome details to the imagination.

(On another mostly related note, "De-Legionization" (might not be the actual term for it, might come up with something better) means that in Moldavia there is little to no apologism and whitewashing of the atrocities committed during the late thirties, across the entirety of the 1940s, and throughout much of the year 1950. Transylvania's de-Legionization measures were about four-fifths as strong as Moldavias but they had a similar effect. Wallachia, the pro-Bulgarian puppet dictatorship in all but name chose instead to suppress Romanian nationalism and give both instigators and collaborators the bullet. Their de-Legionization was more like West Germany's de-Nazification IOTL but with less democracy and less thorough, so there's simmering stuff beneath that doesn't really threaten the state or the perpetual "temporary" Bulgarian puppet government.)




TTL's Star Wars parallel, should it exist, will be covered in Chapter 20, the 1970s Popular Culture update, coming hopefully before the end of 2021 or something. Now as to whether or not it will be successful at the box office is another story. [/ispoiler]

Let's hope it is a success. Perhaps you could a Redux version of Two Suns Shall Set akin to What Madness Is This? to create a more refined and improved version.

 

[AeroTheZealousOne]

Let's hope it is a success. Perhaps you could a Redux version of Two Suns Shall Set akin to What Madness Is This? to create a more refined and improved version.

Between you and me, I was thinking the same thing over the course of the last few months! I'll probably get around to it maybe a year or two after I wrap this one up. It shouldn't be too far along, I plan on cutting off the main storytelling at the turn of the millennium for various reasons.

 

[Ficboy]

Between you and me, I was thinking the same thing over the course of the last few months! I'll probably get around to it maybe a year or two after I wrap this one up. It shouldn't be too far along, I plan on cutting off the main storytelling at the turn of the millennium for various reasons.

Ha. You might go down the route of what @Napoloeon53 did when he remade What Madness Is This? with some better research even if it is fantastical.

 

[TheDetailer]

Let's hope it is a success. Perhaps you could a Redux version of Two Suns Shall Set akin to What Madness Is This? to create a more refined and improved version.

I’m pretty sure Star Wars will end up very different ITTL, if it even exists at all.

 

[AeroTheZealousOne]

I’m pretty sure Star Wars will end up very different ITTL, if it even exists at all.

Without a doubt.

Between you two and myself, I've never been big on Star Wars. That isn't to say I hate it, far from it! It, like a number of other fandoms such as Harry Potter, are some things that for whatever reason I could never seem to get into.

That being said, it's likely that whatever comes out in this world that indirectly parallels Star Wars will be something I'll be able to do some level or another of justice to. It's also likely to, in a large number of aspects, be unrecognizable between fifty years or so of temporal ripple effects and a mostly different world situation, between things that scratch the surface such as a considerably less interventionist and a somewhat worse-off domestic situation in the United States, a Soviet Union that's been through Hell and back and is on the path to reform and some level or another of socialist democracy like their distant Iberian brethren, and a world that's still dominated by an outwardly stagnating European bloc in the West and an overextended Empire of Japan undergoing a slow and painful economic and political collapse that's bound to end disastrously. And this is just the world situation in the 1970s.

Whatever happens in the 1970s here, there will still be a science fiction/science fantasy film released in the United States, and it will still be the highest-grossing film of the decade. It will just be largely unrecognizable compared to OTL's first (well, fourth, but actually first) Star Wars movie, between the characters, actors, and settings. And there's a large probability it might not even be called Star Wars, but you didn't want me to tell you the odds, now, did you? .

 

[Ficboy]

Without a doubt.

Between you two and myself, I've never been big on Star Wars. That isn't to say I hate it, far from it! It, like a number of other fandoms such as Harry Potter, are some things that for whatever reason I could never seem to get into.

That being said, it's likely that whatever comes out in this world that indirectly parallels Star Wars will be something I'll be able to do some level or another of justice to. It's also likely to, in a large number of aspects, be unrecognizable between fifty years or so of temporal ripple effects and a mostly different world situation, between things that scratch the surface such as a considerably less interventionist and a somewhat worse-off domestic situation in the United States, a Soviet Union that's been through Hell and back and is on the path to reform and some level or another of socialist democracy like their distant Iberian brethren, and a world that's still dominated by an outwardly stagnating European bloc in the West and an overextended Empire of Japan undergoing a slow and painful economic and political collapse that's bound to end disastrously. And this is just the world situation in the 1970s.

Whatever happens in the 1970s here, there will still be a science fiction/science fantasy film released in the United States, and it will still be the highest-grossing film of the decade. It will just be largely unrecognizable compared to OTL's first (well, fourth, but actually first) Star Wars movie, between the characters, actors, and settings. And there's a large probability it might not even be called Star Wars, but you didn't want me to tell you the odds, now, did you? .

Just keep Star Wars mostly the same as is like OTL. Perhaps the Original Trilogy and the Prequel Trilogy could parallel Legionary Romania, the Soviet Union, the Japanese Empire and the related events from those oppressive entities.

Marvel Comics or Timely Comics or whatever it's called will be very different. For starters there will not be a Captain America or at least one that is recognizable. That's means Namor and the Human Torch will be the top heroes. As for the Silver Age and Bronze Age it might be the same like OTL just with some noticeable changes.