TL-191: After the End

Discussion in 'Alternate History Books and Media' started by David bar Elias, Aug 17, 2008.

  1. Petike Sky Pirate Extraordinaire

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    Thomas Turtledove, private eye for hire...
     
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  2. Clandango Disestablishmentarianist

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    Erik G. Iverson.
     
  3. Umbric Man Umbric Manned

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    This is like an old theory of mine I had with my brother once upon a time - since it never stopped being the official capital, Washington would be seen as an excellent place to hold government business in again due to what you said about symbolizing reunion. Your mentioning of Philly is something I never made a connection with though, so good call on bucking the concept up with it.

    Indeed, I think anything associated with the name Washington (the man, that is) will become even more revered than OTL due to him successfully uniting north and south in early American history and a perfect symbol of union at its best.

    Will American history try to empathize any common connections the entire countries they have in their fold (Canada, CSA, Mormons, West Indies, etc)? I keep imagining a shared English-speaking, common-law heritage or something ('to New England or the Chesapeake or Barbados, our ancestors went for freedom and prosperity in their own ways, even after the Revolution some kept going westwards like the onetime Loyalists and Mormons...').
     
  4. Clandango Disestablishmentarianist

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    I think there had been a reference to not caring for slave owners like Washington and Jefferson, instead preferring Hamilton and Adams.
     
  5. David bar Elias Well-Known Member

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    George Washington certainly gains in national importance after the Second Great War, along with Thomas Jefferson. I should also mention that by the 2000s in TTL, Abraham Lincoln will have undergone a favorable reevaluation from American historians.

    That sounds like a plausible ATL narrative for American history (especially as it's taught in the school system in TTL), particularly for the first generation born after the Second Great War.

    In the pre-Second Great War years, yes. But post-SGW, Washington and Jefferson would be used as symbols of a reunited nation.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2012
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  6. Clandango Disestablishmentarianist

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    Not Jefferson. Consider the Virginia and Kentucky Resolutions.
     
  7. Poor Little Rhode Island Well-Known Member

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    Good political point to mention the Resolutions. But when historical figures become historical icons, their individual acts in history seem to melt away from them. Look to our own IOTL Jefferson Memorial. The words enshrined are all consistent with the Declaration of Independence (if not directly from that document) without a shred of any notion that Jefferson was not a "good federalist".

    Also, remember that IOTL, many military bases are named for Confederate generals. This does not mean that our military harbors those who advocate a resurrected CSA.
     
  8. ZincOxide Well-Known Member

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    President Reynolds has definite Reaganesque vibes, but without the concomitant endorsement of right-wing, tax-slashing doctrine. I think it helps that ITTL the stronger Socialist movement and the ongoing need for higher levels of military spending have led to a long-term acceptance of relatively high tax rates compared to OTL.

    Also, the "Frozen War" thing really got my attention. And a President who thinks he's the Messiah? Ouch. I wouldn't mind seeing the map of that ATL to this ATL. :)
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2012
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  9. Mac Gregor Well-Known Member

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    When is the next update?
     
  10. Umbric Man Umbric Manned

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    He said sometime in December, good sir. :)
     
  11. FickleCrossroad Dormant Poet

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    When I reread the wikia today and started counting states, I'm glad I also read this post. Trying to figure out how to make a 74-star flag on MS Paint when the West Pacific Territories will likely make this a 77-star flag by the end of the series seems a bit too irritating for a Saturday night I'd rather spend out in town. I'm thinking something like nine horizontal rows of stars, with the top and bottom being nine stars wide, and the middle seven rows being eight stars wide for the current TL flag, and something like a 9-8-9-8-9-8-9-8-9 pattern in a configuration akin the the OTL-present day. If anyone wants to rip this and add stars (and/or drop in the whichever flag thread is the current one,) feel free. I'm just not motivated at the moment.

    US Flag - Edit.jpg
     
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  12. Nerdlinger All-around smartass

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    Why not 7 x 11?
     
  13. FickleCrossroad Dormant Poet

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    Symmetry. From what I've noticed, (outside of the current iteration staggering the rows to make use of space,) the trend has always been towards perfect squares at best, or trying to keep the sides within two stars of each other (the 6x8 of the 48.) 7x11 would just look odd to most Americans, especially as in TTL the 1862-1914 era would see an expansion towards a 33-star flag most likely in the format of either 7-6-7-6-7 or a staggered 6-5-6-5-6-5, and the 1917-1941 flag a perfect 6-6. Those framing the additions of the flag would likely have this in mind just as well as OTL, (which only had 44 years away from the general alignment I mentioned, 41 of them pre-1818.) By the time of GW2, the trend towards balance would have been established pretty firmly, IMO.
     
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  14. Nerdlinger All-around smartass

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    I don't think it's terrible, though. Lines up nicely with the stripes to the right. Maybe make the stars a little smaller so it doesn't look so crowded.

    77starflag.png

    77starflag.png
     
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  15. FickleCrossroad Dormant Poet

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    Damn! I never thought about using the seven stripes up top for something like this! Awesome how it came out, but it's up to David how to deal with the newly civilianized West Pacific Islands to get to 77. I assume in the case of the current TL you'd have the even lines (white stripes,) staggered to get to the TTL-current 74? Props!
     
  16. Nerdlinger All-around smartass

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    Yes, I suppose it could be done like that. Once again, I think smaller stars than the ones I used would make it look better.

    74starflag.png

    74starflag.png
     
  17. Mac Gregor Well-Known Member

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    I wonder what the state flags in the TL look like?
     
  18. Poor Little Rhode Island Well-Known Member

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    Would be interesting to see such flags in the OTL boring US tradition and then wide-open, interesting ATL designs side-by-side!!
     
  19. rvbomally Russian Hacker

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    Blue field with the state seal in the middle. There would be a distinct lack of Confederate-derived flags in the South.
     
  20. Petike Sky Pirate Extraordinaire

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    Good points, both of you. It would be interesting if some fan-made flags of the states appeared once this TL gets finished. I personally welcome more visual material for the TL. :)