TL-191: After the End

Discussion in 'Alternate History Books and Media' started by David bar Elias, Aug 17, 2008.

  1. Nerdlinger All-around smartass

    Sep 3, 2009
    A sad parody of a functioning nation
    You have to actually read the thread. ;)
  2. Milarqui Bloguero de Historia Alterna

    Oct 22, 2007
    Between Madrid and Granada
    Wow... that was one massive update. And it was great, too! Can't wait to see the 2000s...
  3. Petike Sky Pirate Extraordinaire

    Jun 25, 2008
    Clockpunk Zemplín Kingdom / Franz Josef's Land
    OK, my early guesses :

    Burma = Czechoslovakia
    Ottoman Empire = Yugoslavia (in the making)

    ComboNet = OK, sounds etymologically sound :D

    Raygun Barocque :D

    In 2000, then ?!
  4. Arkhangelsk Gay Mexamerican

    Apr 3, 2009
    Alta California
    Yup, that's the map on the first day of the year 2000.
  5. Petike Sky Pirate Extraordinaire

    Jun 25, 2008
    Clockpunk Zemplín Kingdom / Franz Josef's Land
    All righty, no problem then.
  6. FickleCrossroad Dormant Poet

    Oct 4, 2012
    Northwest Wawastan
    Wow, given the context of TL-191, I'm shocked that Republicans caught up to Socialists in total presidencies before 2000. Still... Awesome!
  7. David bar Elias Well-Known Member

    May 17, 2006
    Thank you.

    I will say that Austria-Hungary is not headed for a dissolution in TTL.

    The formal name is the Bureau of Intra-Regional Intelligence, more commonly known as the "Intra-Net." It's Bharat's intelligence service.

    It will not be a good place to be in the 2000s or the 2010s.

    Austria-Hungary is not heading for a collapse in TTL.

    The JWR does share certain aspects with the North Korean Juche regime, as well as the more serious aspects of the society depicted in Terry Gilliam's film Brazil.

    Thanks! Same to you.

    Yes, I thought those were plausible designs.

    Thank you. I'm glad you've enjoyed it.

    Research into fusion power is ongoing, but it still has not led to a major breakthrough as of 2000.

    It depends on the location, among other circumstances.


    Excellent work on the map! Much appreciated!

    I'm glad it met your expectations. Again, fantastic work on the maps.

    Thanks. One correction: President Enos is a Socialist, not a Republican.

    It's mostly used as a way to justify the military's total hold on political power.

    It is not a good situation for anyone living there as of 2000.

    The Socialists held the White House from 1989 to 1993.

    I will try to include some more information on Texas for the last update.

    The struggle for power between ideological hardliners and reformers within the Syndicalist Party exploded into the open with the end of Sakamoto's regime. The hardliners won.


    The situations are analogous in both examples, but not exactly similar to what happened in Czechoslovakia or Yugoslavia in our world.

    I hope it's a plausible sounding name for an ATL Internet.


    The Socialists did hold the White House from 1989 to 1993, before the Tech Recession dashed President's Enos's hopes for a second term.
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  8. Umbric Man Umbric Manned

    Jan 5, 2008
    Southern Hella-ware
    So as far as I can tell, all Canadian, Caribbean, Mexican, and Pacific states of the Union outside of OTL US Boundaries are (territories shall be lettered and in italics):

    1. British Columbia (including Vancouver Island)
    2. Alberta
    3. Saskatchewan
    4. Manitoba
    5. Ontario
    6. New Brunswick
    7. Nova Scotia
    8. Prince Edward Island
    9. Newfoundland (including Labrador)
    A. Yukon
    B. Northwest Territories (including Nunavut

    1. Baja California
    2. Sonora
    3. Chihuahua

    1. Bahamas (including Bermuda and the Turks and Caicos Islands)
    2. Cuba (including Isla de Pinos)
    3. Jamaica (including Cayman Islands)
    4. Barbados
    5. St. Lucia
    6. Dominica
    7. Grenada
    8. St. Vincent (including Grenadines)
    9. Guadeloupe
    10. Martinique
    11. Antigua (including Barbuda)
    12. St. Kitts (including Nevis)
    13. Trinidad (including Tobago)
    A. Virgin Islands (including British Virgin Islands)
    B. (former French) St. Martin
    C. Anguilla
    D. St. Barthelemy/St. Barts

    1. Polynesia
    2. Micronesia
    3. Melanesia
    A. Ryukyu Islands
    B. Bonin Islands

    That is a total of seventy-six states and eight territories by my reckoning (slicing off South Dakota and Arizona in the flag, but replacing Texas with Houston State).

    Did I get them right? The status of French St. Martin, Virgin Islands, and Anguilla is admittedly confusing me, so I included them as territories. Is Vancouver Island its own state as well?

    I can see St. Martin as a state including Anguilla and St. Barts, and the Virgin Islands also as its own potential state.
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2013
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  9. Nerdlinger All-around smartass

    Sep 3, 2009
    A sad parody of a functioning nation
    It's probably easier just to list all the states. There are 77 altogether as of the end of the last update:

    1. Alabama
    2. Alaska
    3. Alberta
    4. Antigua (incl. Barbuda)
    5. Arkansas
    6. Bahamas (incl. Bermuda, Turks and Caicos Islands)
    7. Baja California
    8. Barbados
    9. British Columbia
    10. California
    11. Chihuahua
    12. Colorado
    13. Connecticut
    14. Cuba
    15. Dakota
    16. Delaware
    17. Dominica
    18. Florida
    19. Georgia
    20. Grenada
    21. Guadeloupe
    22. Houston
    23. Idaho
    24. Illinois
    25. Indiana
    26. Iowa
    27. Jamaica (incl. Cayman Islands)
    28. Kansas
    29. Kentucky
    30. Louisiana
    31. Maine
    32. Manitoba
    33. Martinique
    34. Maryland
    35. Massachusetts
    36. Melanesia (Fiji, New Caledonia, Vanuatu)
    37. Michigan
    38. Micronesia (Micronesia, Palau, Marianas, Guam, Marshall Islands, Kiribati)
    39. Minnesota
    40. Mississippi
    41. Missouri
    42. Montana
    43. Nebraska
    44. Nevada
    45. New Brunswick (incl. Prince Edward Island)
    46. New Hampshire
    47. New Jersey
    48. New Mexico
    49. New York
    50. Newfoundland (incl. Labrador, St. Pierre and Miquelon)
    51. North Carolina
    52. Nova Scotia
    53. Nunavut (i.e., OTL Nunavut and the Northwest Territories)
    54. Ohio
    55. Ontario
    56. Oregon
    57. Pennsylvania
    58. Polynesia (former French Polynesia, Pitcairn Islands, Tonga, Tuvalu, Wallis & Futuna, Tokelau, Niue, Cook Islands)
    59. Rhode Island
    60. Saint Kitts (incl. Nevis, former British Virgin Islands, Anguilla, Montserrat, St. Barthelemy, St. Martin)
    61. Saint Lucia
    62. Saint Vincent (incl. the Grenadines)
    63. Sandwich Islands
    64. Saskatchewan
    65. Sequoyah
    66. Sonora
    67. South Carolina
    68. Tennessee
    69. Trinidad (incl. Tobago)
    70. Utah
    71. Vermont
    72. Virginia
    73. Washington
    74. West Virginia
    75. Wisconsin
    76. Wyoming
    77. Yukon
    I believe the only US territories that are not states or parts thereof are DC (of course) and the Ryukyu and Bonin Islands.
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2013
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  10. Umbric Man Umbric Manned

    Jan 5, 2008
    Southern Hella-ware
    I can dig if the West Indian Islands I asked on are part of other states (though I ponder which ones, haha), but are Nunavut/NW Territories and Yukon big enough in population?
  11. Nerdlinger All-around smartass

    Sep 3, 2009
    A sad parody of a functioning nation
    I updated my list to include which territories belong to which states -- these are all on DBE's authority, as I've PMed him on the matter in the past. Population of the new states is evidently not much of an issue in this TL.

    Also, Vancouver Island is still part of BC and the USVI are Danish in this TL (the US never bought them from Denmark).
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2013
  12. Umbric Man Umbric Manned

    Jan 5, 2008
    Southern Hella-ware
    Ah, okay. :)

    I didn't know PEI was not its own state and should have clarified on the 'nesias' island groupings, so good call on finding out!
  13. Nerdlinger All-around smartass

    Sep 3, 2009
    A sad parody of a functioning nation
    Yeah, besides my own curiosity, I needed to figure them out to make electoral maps for Turquoise Blue's (later aborted) TL-191 election project.
  14. jycee Well-Known Member

    Feb 28, 2009
    Los Angeles
    Amazing update David, as always. Really looking forward to the 2000s, and hopefully you manage to write into the 2010s as well.

    Love the balance between politics, tech, and culture you have developed. Through out it. I get a the feeling that with Braco, Surrealist Architecture, Raygun Baroque, etc - as awesome as they sound - someone travelling from OTL to TL 191 might find their tastes to be somewhat tacky and obnoxious. Especially, because this is built over two decades of mostly structuralist and brutalist styles.

    The music though probably amazing.

    I thought Leo Enos was a Socialist. But just didn't run for reelection - David was there a particular reason for this? I didn't catch it in the update.
  15. Arkhangelsk Gay Mexamerican

    Apr 3, 2009
    Alta California
    Leo Enos is a Socialist, I made a mistake on the list I my bad. :eek:

    I fixed it, so it should be good.
  16. Mac Gregor Well-Known Member

    Nov 15, 2009
    Wonderful update! Very glad to see the Republicans back in the White House. I am surprised about how many states there are. Is there a reason the U.S. didn't consolidate the Carribean states? Also what kind of casualties are we talking about for the Kashmir War? Cheers.
  17. Umbric Man Umbric Manned

    Jan 5, 2008
    Southern Hella-ware
    The State of West Indies (India?) shall be formed, consolidated, and become the greatest of them all! :D

    I actually suspect I would be a Republican in TTL. And it's a bit amusing to see them making inroads into their original base of New England.

    (I wonder if Atlantic Canada may be grouped together with New England proper in regional terminology now? BC and Alaska now considered part of the Pacific NW with Washington, Oregon, and NorCal? A new region of 'the Pacific' with Hawaii and the 'nesias? Heh!)
  18. Nevermore All Killer, No Filler

    Jul 15, 2008
    A Rock and a Hard Place
    Very cool, David. I'm a bit sad that the timeline is winding down and we've only got one update left before it properly finishes, but all good things come to an end, right? It's been a great ride so far. As always, the cultural segments are some of my favorites. I can't decide if endurance films are painful or would actually be quite cool. :p

    I was actually wondering when the great powers of TL-191 were going to form an agency for refugees. It certainly seems like something that would come along sooner or later, given what you've written here. Will we see them featuring again in the 2000-2009 update in some fashion?

    Also: a mammoth getting cloned sometime between 2050-2099? You, sir, are awesome. :D

    Since I don't think it was ever stated: the International Security Council seems a bit like the United Nations in our world. How close would that parallel be? Or is it more like NATO?

    Very neat that China seems to be slowly getting on the path of relative prosperity to the rest of the world. Sounds like future world governments, with people speculating in this world, will probably include the U.S., Russia and China (possibly Germany too?), at least in speculative fiction.

    A female dictator (er, 'People's Friend'...) in Japan? That was certainly unexpected and very cool. I know that you've stated a North Korea parallel isn't wholly accurate, and you're right, but it certainly seems like it could head that way if reformers don't come in the future.

    And the Middle East looks like an absolute mess right now and not getting much better. The Republic of Basra will prove interesting; you've mentioned it's a demilitarized zone, after all. Even while it's territorially respectable, I take it that it's more like a city-state, as its name implies?

    I'm also a little surprised that Hyderabad fought on the side of Bharat when places like Borneo and Malaysia didn't. I'm guessing this is because of the fact it had a lot to lose if it didn't? It's surrounded on all sides, after all.

    Before I forget: Patrick Gutierrez is our first Hispanic president. Barring some scandal to rock his administration, he'll probably get a second term, so he'll be out in 2005. Will we see one more 'first x' (like first woman) president before the timeline finishes?

    The Ryukyu and Bonin islands: are they territories of the U.S. or will they become independent?

    Also: I'm a little confused with German Southwest Africa. Is it Germany's last colony, did it become independent, or did it join with the empire like Togoland did?
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2013
  19. Poor Little Rhode Island Well-Known Member

    Sep 28, 2011
    oddly enough, Rhode Island!
    GREAT update, David!

    One little quibble, though. If Melanesia, Micronesia, and Polynesia become states in 1999, they would have representatives and senators in Congress immediately upon their becoming states, or very soon thereafter. There is no precedent for any U.S. state not having representation until the next scheduled election date.

    This can be fixed by simply editting out that one statement.
  20. David bar Elias Well-Known Member

    May 17, 2006
    Thanks. I plan to stop this ATL at 2009 though.

    It certainly does clash in many cities, especially throughout the European Community and the United States.



    The Democrats and the Socialists have had an informal agreement since the end of the Second Great War on the admission of new states--any territory that is likely to vote Democratic must be accompanied by a Socialist-leaning one, and vince versa. It hasn't worked out perfectly, but during the 1970s, as the remaining Southern states were re-admitted, they were matched by the admission of new states from the Caribbean.

    I don't have any precise numbers. The worst fronts during the Kashmir War were Kashmir itself, the region around and including the city of Karachi, the Persian Gulf, and the Ogaden Desert in East Africa.

    Regional identities are...complicated in TTL's America.

    I'm glad you've enjoyed it so far!


    It will during a very interesting time for conservation throughout the world (especially in the Russian Republic and the United States).

    It will have similarities with the UN, though in many respects the Council of the Western Hemisphere is a closer analogue, at least in terms of structure. I will try to give a more detailed picture of how the ISO works in the next update.


    Certainly. What will actually happen to the JWR eventually in the twenty-first century will be alluded to in the next update.

    It has more territory than just the city of Basra.

    Hyderabad also only declared war on Pakistan.

    We shall see.

    Territories of the US.

    Southwest Africa is a contiguous part of the German Empire.


    Thanks for the information. It's been edited.