TL-191: After the End

Discussion in 'Alternate History Books and Media' started by David bar Elias, Aug 17, 2008.

  1. Tom Kalbfus Banned

    Mar 20, 2009
    He probably means that the United States is too big, I can see how it would depress some leftists, as they are always writing the epitaph of the United States from 1968 onwards, to see the United States get bigger rather than smaller depresses them. For my part I found the Original AH map depressing because it shows the United States broken up, now it occupies most of North America, so its the liberal left's turn to be depressed. Of course its all AH, they probably have their favorite AH worlds as well, the Disunited States of America would be one.
    Das Amerikan likes this.
  2. Faeelin Lord of Ten Thousand Years

    Jan 4, 2004
    Silly thought: Evil America's anti-Japanese stance is the product of racism and contempt, which boiled over in WW1. In actuality, Japan is the leader of an actual Co-Prosperity Sphere, from Aginualdo's Philippines to the revolutionary forces in Indochina.

    And who can forget the Empire's efforts to aid Sun Yat-sen's Kuomintang in their march north?
  3. Spitfiremk1 Well-Known Member

    Jun 29, 2008
    Brisbane, United States of Greater Britain.
    Acctualy, i'm the complete oposite of a liberal leftist ;). But i also have a obsessive love for all things British and the British empire, so TL 191 is quite a depressing read for me :p.
    marktaha likes this.
  4. catboy637 La Filo de Ne Dion.

    Dec 17, 2008
    The Crossroads of Evil and Maple St.
    What would George Orwell be in T-191? 1984's Freedom is Slavery could very well be true ITTL.
  5. IchBinDieKaiser Casual Historian

    Jul 22, 2008
    There are Neo-Nazis in OTL, might there be Neo-Confederates in this one, or maybe Neo-Rebs or Neo-Freedoms. I don't know about the rest of you guys who have something against Turtledove, but I don't mind all the annalouges. I just wished he didn't need to fill up the pages he couldn't fill with play with randomly inserted Sex scenes(RISS).
  6. Polish Eagle AntiFa Supersoldier

    Apr 11, 2009
    Where the skies are so blue
    I always thought something like the Disunited States would be a paleoconservative paradise. Sure, California is sorta left, and some Black communist-type state exists in Mississippi, but this is a world where "States' Rights!" got wanked. Not to mention that the states of Virginia and Ohio are like a 50s world, seems to me.
  7. Hades Member

    Jan 11, 2009
    when's the next part coming?
  8. Hawkeye Source?

    Nov 12, 2007
    This argument makes no sense at all. For starters I'm "leftist" and I love Ameriwank, in fact I feel offended. :mad:
    Second of all, the US in TL-191 is more liberal then OTL.
    Das Amerikan likes this.
  9. T3h_shammy Well-Known Member

    May 16, 2009
    In some ways it is, obviously because they have a main-stream Socialist party. But that socialist party isnt far from our Democrat party. And the world as a whole is largely conservative.
  10. Legosim Well-Known Member

    May 18, 2009
    Yeah idk where you got the leftists hate Big America and want a Disunited States.

    Total 180 of what I believe as a liberal.
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2009
  11. Tom Kalbfus Banned

    Mar 20, 2009
    For instance the US Army's policy of taking hostages of confederate civilians and executing one for every Confederate Guerilla attack or car bomb inflicted on US troops? Yeah, that sounds liberal to me. I don't think the 1940s OTU US Army would do that.:rolleyes:
  12. Grimm Reaper Desperate But Not Serious

    Tom, you obviously don't have a clue what the US Army was ready to do if the German werwolf resistance had ever gotten off the ground.

    Reprisal would be a mild term for what was planned. It wouldn't be on a one for one basis either.:(
  13. Hnau free radical Kicked

    Aug 13, 2007
    Phoenix, Arizona
    Yeah, no kidding. Turtledove hasn't done his research. The Utah War was caused by the U.S. federal government, it wasn't a violent 'uprising' of any sort similar to those insurgencies displayed in the books.
  14. David bar Elias Well-Known Member

    May 17, 2006

    January 9, 1963—Fresh riots erupt across South Africa after the police brutally put down massive (though peaceful) demonstrations in the Gugulethu, Langa, Sharpeville, and Evaton townships (among others), which have been demanding an end to Apartheid. The United States responds by tightening sanctions against the country, while in Germany, several activist organizations begin planning for demonstrations of their own against the Apartheid government, calling for, among other things, their nation to follow America’s lead in placing sanctions upon the country.

    January 17, 1963—Ireland’s parliament approves a law that will see the country’s adoption of the U.S. dollar as of January 1, 1970. The move reflects the extremely friendly relationship that exists between the two nations, as the currency change comes on the heels of the United States-Ireland Free Trade Accord, a bilateral agreement signed in Washington at the start of the year that eliminates the few remaining barriers between the two countries.

    February 23, 1963—The defense rests in the trial of Albert Wirtz and Martin Josephs.

    April 5, 1963—In New York City, Albert Wirtz and Martin Josephs are both found guilty of perpetuating crimes against humanity, and are sentenced to death.

    May 1, 1963-January, 1964—In Russia, the long-planned General Strike begins, centered in the Empire’s major urban centers. In city after city, workers occupy factories and set up barricades. This uprising has its roots in the widespread resentment that now exists against the government’s perceived disregard for the rights of its subjects, and the poor economic conditions that had been a fact of life since the end of the Second Great War.

    In reaction, the government orders in its soldiers to disperse the strikers, only to discover in horror, in confused reports from as far apart as Moscow, Kazan, Tsaritsyn, Ufa, Saratov, Yekaterinburg, Tula, Astrakhan, Novgorod, and Murmansk that mutinies have erupted as well, as certain units refuse to fire on the strikers, and instead turn on their officers. Mutinies even occur in the rebuilt capital of Petrograd, where angry strikers battle against both Cossack guardsmen and Veterans Patriot Front members. These are the first shots in the Second Russian Civil War, which will pit the rebellious military units and socialists against the Tsarist government. The war will also see opportunistic uprisings (supported heavily by the Ottomans) in Russian Central Asia, the first (and largest) of which begin in Kazakhstan as rebels seize control of several urban centers and begin active sabotage of the Trans-Aral Railway. The reactions to this turn of events vary overseas. The American and German governments both urge restraint in dealing with the revolt from Petrograd, while the Japanese quietly decide to aid rebellious groups in the Russian-controlled sectors of Siberia.

    In North America, Ontario and Virginia are admitted into the Union. Military rule over the Yukon and Northwest Territories are also turned over to a civilian administration, finally bringing the Occupation of Canada to a close.

    In Germany, the planned anti-Apartheid demonstrations are held throughout the country, though many quickly become spontaneous celebrations of solidarity of the Russian General Strike.

    In German East Africa, the Tanganyika People’s Union begins its first major round of demonstrations, as industrial, agricultural, and railroad workers clamor for an increase in wages and greater political autonomy. The demonstrators also call for solidarity with anti-Apartheid forces in South Africa, forcing that country’s consulate in Dar es Salaam to close.

    May 7, 1963 onwards—In a tense private audience at the White House, President Humphrey warns the Japanese ambassador against his country attempting at all any kind of incursion into Siberia. To emphasize this point, Humphrey quietly orders an increase in military units to bases in the Sandwich Isles, Alaska, Wake Island, and British Columbia, as well as the overseas bases in Australia and New Zealand. Some fretful observers speculate that the two nations could come to blows during the course of the Second Russian Civil War, though they will thankfully be proven wrong (this time), as the Japanese do not have any desire, yet, to provoke the United States. Tensions remain high, however.

    May 8, 1963 onwards—Tsarist officials are forced to flee Moscow, as the original strike in that city has turned into a general uprising, overwhelming loyalist forces. Viktor Turov, the leader of the Moscow cell, becomes the de-facto leader of the rebels, and in a rousing speech in Red Square, announces the establishment of the Russian Republic, declaring, “Now our long suffering people shall gain the government that they deserve, one that shall not cause them to perish from the face of the Earth.” Historians will later establish the Fall of Moscow as the turning point of the Second Russian Civil War. President Humphrey quietly orders the O.S.S. to begin aiding the rebels, sympathizing with their stated goals to create a liberal and just government and society.

    The Germans, by contrast, do nothing, beyond moving additional troops to bases in Belarus, Finland, and Poland (while Austria-Hungary does the same in the Ukraine). The Social Democratic government has little love for the Tsarist regime, and declines to do anything to aid Petrograd in putting down the revolt (though the Russian government was loath to ask for any assistance from its old enemy anyways). The Germans and Austro-Hungarians will look the other way, so to speak, at the American weapons being shipped towards the Republicans over the coming months, however.

    Over the next few days, Tsarist forces are also thrown out of Tula, Kazan, Astrakhan, Ufa, Yekaterinburg, Tsaritsyn, Saratov, Cherepovets, Voronezh, and Novgorod, although the Murmansk and Petrograd uprisings are brutally put down. Massive peasant revolts begin in specific support of the Moscow, Cherepovets, and Novgorod uprisings, further tying down Tsarist troops.

    May 12, 1963—The Russian government declares war upon the Ottoman Empire, as news of the huge revolt in Central Asia reaches Petrograd. Fighting soon erupts all along the Russian-Ottoman frontier, though the border with Persia remains quieter, though there are numerous skirmishes.

    In response, the Ottomans move more soldiers into Azerbaijan and Chechnya, though no plans are drawn up for an invasion of Russia itself.

    May 15, 1963 onwards—Ottoman forces in Chechnya repel a major Russian incursion. The Ottomans also manage to blunt a planned Russian offensive into Azerbaijan with a preemptive strike on their enemy’s forward positions. This represents the height of the conflict in this theater of the war, as Tsarist forces are drawn down to deal with the rapidly growing rebellion.

    June 1963 onwards—Refugees fleeing the fighting in Russia begin to trickle into Belarus, Finland, and Ukraine. Those who can afford to seek asylum at the German or American legations located closest to the war zones.

    June-August 1963—Republican forces begin to break out of their urban strongholds, augmented by a steady stream of defecting soldiers and civilian volunteers.

    June 1, 1963—Ground is broken on the LaFollette Space Center, near the town of Guantánamo, Cuba. Construction begins a few weeks later on a tracking station in New Mexico that will later serve as the foundation of the future Mission Control.

    June 4, 1963—In Russia, Republican forces advancing from Samara capture the city of Ulyanovsk, after a timely mutiny from the city’s garrison.

    June 10, 1963—Simultaneous Turkmen, Kyrgyz, Tajik, and Uzbek uprisings (of various levels of strength) begin against the beleaguered Russian government, again sponsored heavily by the Ottomans. This occurs as Republican forces manage to score a shocking victory over an Imperial army in the Battle of Moscow, blunting Petrograd’s hopes to retake the city. The ineptitude of the commanding Tsarist officer, General Alexei Alexandrovich, as well as by the timely defection of one of Alexandrovich’s barrel corps towards the Republican side were the primary causes of the Tsarist defeat, a defeat which will buy the Republicans much needed breathing time to begin planning for their ultimate offensive against Petrograd.

    June 11-15, 1963—Taking advantage of their victory in the Battle of Moscow, Republican forces begin a drive towards Ryazan.

    June 17, 1963—Ryazan falls to the Republicans, after a brief skirmish.

    June 20, 1963—The Siege of Novgorod begins.

    June 21, 1963—Vernity [OTL Almaty] falls to Kazakh rebels.

    June 24, 1963 onwards—Uzbek rebels in newly captured Samarqand declare the establishment of the State of Uzbekistan, which is quickly recognized by the Ottomans, along with the rest of the Independence Movement. The Ottomans also begin massive airdrops of weapons and food supplies to the rebels in the city. Within the next few days, Dushanbe falls to Tajik rebels, who also proclaim their independence.

    June 25, 1963—Tsarist forces begin the Siege of Petrozavodsk.

    June 26, 1963 onwards—Armed with Japanese weapons, a Yakut uprising begins in Siberia. In comparison to the revolts in Central Asia, however, the Yakuts are poorly armed and supplied, and will fail to oust the local authorities during the course of their struggle.

    June 29, 1963—A Persian army occupies Ashgabat. Subsequently, an independent Turkmenistan will be proclaimed, though for now, only the member states of the Independence Movement recognize the ad hoc government, as with newly proclaimed Uzbekistan and Tajikistan.

    July 5, 1963-August, 1977—The Egyptian government announces its own plans for a “Great Rebuilding,” which will consist, with generous Ottoman support (through the Alliance for Peace and Justice), of both urban renewal to relieve overcrowding and ensure sustainable water and electrical supplies, as well as a mega-project: the creation of an artificial sea in the Qattara Depression, to supply the nation with cheap energy and to spur further industrial development.

    Although the urban renewal projects will be completed on schedule, the Qattara mega-project, due to accidents and untimely delays, will not be completed until 1977. Egypt’s Great Rebuilding will be controversial for the same reasons as the Ottoman Empire’s: namely for its neglect of rural areas and the potential threat it poses to artifacts.

    July 16, 1963 onwards—A brief but bloody border war erupts between Bharat and Pakistan over the disputed province of Kashmir. More intense than the previous conflicts waged by the two nations since the end of British rule, the war leads to an emergency meeting of the Independence Movement’s General Assembly in Constantinople, which, at Ottoman prodding, votes to dispatch peacekeepers to Kashmir to separate the two powers. Some 50,000 men from all over the I.M. will be stationed in the region for a decade, before Bharat and Pakistan agree to a final settlement over the province.

    July 29, 1963—The first shipment of American weapons arrives in Moscow. The arms are a mixture of surplus Second Great War arms, along with more advanced weaponry.

    August 1963 onwards—Throughout war-torn Russia, banditry begins to rise as civil order breaks down, especially in the countryside. The Republican provisional government’s Auxiliary Police Force (a unit made up primarily of local recruits from newly liberated territory) will bring this outburst of lawlessness under control by the beginning of winter in the areas in which it captures.

    August 1, 1963—Tsarist forces crush the rebels in Petrozavodsk, after a brutal siege. However, this comes as Republican armies advancing from the Moscow Pocket capture Nizhniy Novgorod, and begin advancing on the city of Tver.

    August 4, 1963 onwards—Republican and Tsarist armies clash in the Battle of Tver, which proves to be another decisive battle in the Second Russian Civil War. Armed with the newest American weaponry, which includes advanced barrel destroying rockets (among other things), the Republicans manage to inflict another crushing defeat on the Tsarists, once again aided by timely defections from their enemies, this time from several armored brigades and cavalry squadrons. The Republicans also tighten their grip on the cities and towns along the Volga River, and begin planning in earnest for the final assault on Petrograd.

    The defeat at Tver delivers an almost fatal blow to the embattled Imperial government. A few days after the battle, the Okhrana uncovers a plot by dissident aristocrats to orchestrate a coup against the government, in order to negotiate an end to the fighting.

    August 7, 1963—The city of Vyatka [OTL Kirov] goes over to the Republicans after the local garrison stages a successful mutiny.

    August 10, 1963—Petrograd breaks off diplomatic relations with both Germany and the United States, over their supposed roles as the “puppet masters” of the Republicans. In spite of this development, American weapons, food, and clothing shipments continue to reach the rebels.

    August 12, 1963 onwards—Novgorod falls to Tsarist forces, after two months of siege. Thousands of refugees from the immediate war zone begin to flee towards Republican-controlled territory.

    August 16, 1963 onwards—Smolensk falls to the Republicans, after a bloody battle. The capture of Smolensk will greatly ease the American attempts to aid the rebels, and a huge volume of material begins to flood into Republican hands.

    August 22, 1963—Vologda falls to the Republicans.

    September, 1963 onwards—With the onset of autumn, the Republicans begin hastening their plans to move against Petrograd, hoping to capture the capital before the start of winter.

    The Republicans also begin finalizing their battle plan against Tsarist forces centered in the city of Krasnodar, in the south.

    September 6, 1963—Operation Banner, the Republican drive to Petrograd, begins with the rapid relief of the key industrial center of Cherepovets, which had been under siege since June. Another key defection, this time from one of the Imperial military’s few remaining barrel corps, occurs at this time, led by the ambitious Colonel Vasily Rebikov. This will prove to be a major boon for Operation Banner, and Rebikov will also prove his value at propaganda, becoming well known for his strident radio broadcasts urging Tsarist troops to come over to the Republican fold.

    September 16, 1963—Republican forces recapture Novgorod. The hastily assembled Tsarist force sent to drive them from the city is repelled, further diminishing the hopes of government of stemming the rebels’ tide.

    September 20, 1963—After a nasty confrontation with his remaining senior generals and advisors, and upon hearing the news that the Republicans will be within reach of Petrograd within days, the Tsar announces his abdication via radio, and leaves with his family and loyal confidants for an exile that will eventually bring them to Switzerland.

    September 21, 1963 onwards—Vasily Rebikov, now promoted to a brevet rank of Brigadier General, enters Petrograd at the head of rebel forces, where he declares the triumph of the Russian Republic, and an end to the war. In fact, the conflict will not end for another four months, as the provisional Republican government is forced to deal with Tsarist forces that refuse to lay down their arms.

    Viktor Turov also threatens to continue the war against the Ottomans and Persians unless the two powers end their support for the Central Asian rebellions.

    The United States and the German Empire both recognize the Republican administration. The Germans also offer to mediate between the Ottomans and the Turov government, only to be rebuffed by both sides.

    Historians will eventually reach a consensus that the main reasons for the rapid Republican success in the Second Civil War included the deep unpopularity of the Tsarist regime, resentment within much of the Russian military over a lack of good pay and anger over the ineptitude of the officer corps stemming from the defeat in the Second Great War, as well as the not inconsequential amounts of American assistance.

    September-December, 1963—Republican forces begin to move against Tsarist holdouts in the south of Russia and east in Siberia. Plans are also drawn up to bring the rebels in Kazakhstan to heel, though there’s skepticism from Turov’s advisors that all of the Central Asian rebel groups can be defeated, especially in the face of the sheer volume of Ottoman and Persian assistance.

    September 23, 1963—Acting Premier Turov reaffirms, in an announcement to the newly assembled Duma in Moscow, that all political prisoners shut away by the old regime are unconditionally pardoned. Turov also declares that the Russian Republic will hold its own constitutional convention within the next year, before the first free elections are held, to finalize just how the new nation will be governed.

    Turov also states that the new capital will be in Moscow, utilizing the excuse that Petrograd is too vulnerable to foreign invaders to be safe place to administer from.

    September 30, 1963—Republican forces begin the Siege of Krasnodar, which remains the last major Tsarist stronghold in European Russia, after the rapid surrender of both Murmansk and Arkhangelsk in the previous days.

    October 5, 1963 onwards—As the first Republican scouts enter Siberia from Yekaterinburg, they are surprised to be received, at the city of Tobolsk, by a large number of former government administrators, who admit that they’ve fled from the breakdown of order further east, from both the massive prison uprisings and the Yakut revolt (though they managed to largely put that down).

    The former Tsarists agree to recognize the authority of Viktor Turov, ending the conflict in the east. As the revolting political prisoners receive news of Turov’s unconditional pardon, they too lay down their arms in exchange for the amnesty.

    November 1, 1963—Albert Wirtz and Martin Josephs are both executed at Castle Williams, New York. Their bodies will be cremated and ashes scattered far out in the Atlantic Ocean, outside of American territorial waters.

    November 14, 1963 onwards—Krasnodar surrenders to Republican forces, ending the last organized anti-Republican resistance in the south; many Tsarist troops in the city elect to go into exile with their families rather than to swear a loyalty oath to their archenemies. The exiles from Krasnodar will scatter around the world, with most settling either in Austria-Hungary, Germany, or Switzerland.

    December 1963 onwards—The fighting in Russian Central Asia remains in a stalemate; although Republican forces (led by General Rebikov), have managed to re-capture the city of Akmolinsk [OTL Astana] from the Kazakh rebels, the harsh winter, combined with long supply lines and the ongoing threat of a guerilla morass means that no progress is possible until spring at the earliest. Premier Turov bitterly begins to see that it will be next to impossible to crush the Central Asian rebels, especially with their heavy support from the Ottomans and Persians.

    Turov consequently quietly meets with the new German ambassador, and informs him that he is willing to negotiate a final end to the fighting. This also reflects the general attitude of war weariness from most of the Russian population, and the strain that continuing the war would put on the new government’s resources.

    Throughout this month, low-level talks will be held in the Berlin suburb of Potsdam between the Ottomans and Russians, with the Germans mediating. A final agreement will not be reached until January of 1964, however.

    December 31, 1963—The German and Austro-Hungarian governments announce the successful completion of the Lettow-Vorbeck Rocketry Base, in German East Africa, on the outskirts of Dar es Salaam. Both nations hope to launch a satellite from the new facility at the earliest possible date.

    The American construction of the LaFollete Space Center in Cuba is naturally accelerated, although President Humphrey’s scientific advisors caution him to avoid rushing to launch anything before the device is confirmed to be working properly.


    Last edited: Aug 3, 2009
  15. IchBinDieKaiser Casual Historian

    Jul 22, 2008
    Very nice. I can't wait for the Pacific war between the Americans and the Japanese. I wonder where the first shot will be fired?
  16. CT23 Well-Known Member

    Sep 19, 2006
    Great update.

    Like Ich, I'm looking forward to the next Pacific War. Also am looking forward to hear how Germany's/A-H's and the US' fusion programs progress.

    Keep up the good work. :)
  17. Georgepatton A Poster of Wealth and Taste (╭ರ_•́)

    Jan 10, 2008
    Occupied Moscow
    Once again, terrific stuff.
  18. lothaw Texan Nationalist

    Dec 18, 2008
    Houston, Texas
    Freaking awesome update there.

    Lot of substance to this one. The beginnings of the space race and the Ottomans win a war on their own?! :eek:

    Glad to see this TL getting some attention again. :D
  19. Saladan Member

    Apr 23, 2007
    Great job I'm glad to see a non communist Russia in this TL. And I can't wait for the Pacific war update. Finally get to see that Japanese get what coming.
  20. Tom Kalbfus Banned

    Mar 20, 2009
    I see TL-191's space programs are a little behind that of OTU. By By December 1963, I believe we have already had a few Mercury Missions launched.

    What is the nature of TL-191s space programs, is it basically missiles, or are they trying to develop rocket planes that eventually will reach orbit? Have any "Sputniks" been orbited by 1963 or 1964 yet?

    Have you ever considered whether Imperial Japan would be developing its own Space Program? I think an undefeated Imperial Japan would be much more aggressive in developing its missiles, and nuclear powered aircraft carriers as well.

    Japan is also probably getting more technically sophisticated in this decade, they start producing better cars, better electronics, but it is as militaristic as ever.

    I think a Cold War between Imperial Japan and the United States would be more interesting than a hot war. I think the Japanese Empire has the potential to become the third superpower and a potential rival to the United States and Germany. I think when the Japanese start orbiting satellites and astronauts, this will get the space race truly going.