TL-191: After the End

Discussion in 'Alternate History Books and Media' started by David bar Elias, Aug 17, 2008.

  1. Hawkeye Source?

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    Another great update Dave, I've would have said so sooner but I just got back from a camping trip.
     
  2. Strategos' Risk Oriental Orientalist

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    Hm. Bear in mind that different Central Asian ethnic states might declare independence from OTL.
     
  3. Matt Wiser Well-Known Member

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    Dave, got a few questions about the USN in this TL as of 1964:

    1) How many carriers? IRL in 1964 the USN had 15 attack carriers, and eight ASW carriers, with one of the attack carriers being the famous U.S.S. Enterprise (CVAN-65). Has nuclear power gone to the carrier force yet? The Big E was commissioned in 1961 IRL.

    2) I presume the battleships are either in mothballs or have either gone to the scrap heap, sunk as targets, with maybe one or two being kept as museums in their home states?

    3) The sub force: how many of the boats are nuclear powered? And are there any ballistic-missile subs (boomers)?

    And 4) The Marines: what's the strength of the USMC? I would presume at least three divisions active, with more reserve, with the usual air wing in support for each division?
     
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  4. David bar Elias Well-Known Member

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    Not sure of precisely how many carriers. However, with Japan as the number one security threat, there are more than IOTL. And yeah, nuclear power is what powers America's carriers as of 1963 in TTL.

    Ayup.

    Almost all of America's submarines are nuclear powered as of '63. And yeah, boomers are very much a part of the U.S. fleet.

    Ayup; the Marines were strengthened and expanded as Japan became the biggest single national security concern.
     
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  5. oberdada Präsident des Welt- und Erdenballs

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    I am waiting for the day when I will actually use the word barrel in the TL-191 sense, Turtledove apparently never thought of the effect this things might have on non English native speakers. Fortunatly I hardly talk about millitarry stuff.

    I can imagine the Socialists moving the Government back to Washington D.C.
    It isn't as unhealthy as nuked Philadelphia and it is a possibility to get rid of some of the heavy Democratic-leaning burocracy

    And since Einstein, apparently without hesitation contributeted to THE BOMB why shouldn't Braun be different?

    You should watch out for the first Nation that gets a man into Space, bet you it will not be the same nation that get's to the moon first as well.

    There wouldn't be something like 1984 in TL-191, probably not even animal farm.
    If I remember right, the Spanish Civil War was butterflied away, that was a very important step in Orwells live.

    true
     
  6. lothaw Texan Nationalist

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    There was a Spanish Civil War but it was the "Monarchists" backed by Germany and the "Nationalists" backed by France and Britain.

    I don't think the books stated who even won.
     
  7. Communist Wizard Well-Known Member

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    Probably Germany, though El Dove's love of parallels to OTL might mean a Franco-esque Nationalist group snubbed by both German Europe and the USA.
     
  8. Nevermore All Killer, No Filler

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    The Nationalist group, backed by France and the U.K., won still, similar to OTL. Who exactly is in charge of Spain right now, don't know. Considering that David has told me that a sort of 'cut-off date' for characters from OTL appearing is about 1910, that still means that Franco is still running around...somewhere. So yeah, Spain is a nationalist republic (and considering that seems to be TTL's word for 'fascism,' is probably lead by a dictator) right now, but we don't know anything about it other than that.
     
  9. Tom Kalbfus Banned

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    I expect a German "Sputnik" and for Von Braun to get a medal from the Kaisar. Von Braun would have some plans that he'd like to discuss with the Kaisar, a space station in a two-hour orbit called Lunetta for one, it would be a manned command station from which to direct the bombardment of targets with space-based nuclear missiles, on top of that he'd want to sell the Kaisar on his Mars Project.
     
  10. IchBinDieKaiser Casual Historian

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    Can anyone say "Star Wars".

    Will the U.S. get a Ronald Reagan type figure?
     
  11. Tom Kalbfus Banned

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    B. LUNETTA
    16. Lunetta's Orbit (Also Orbit of Departure for Operation Mars)
    To facilitate a scheduled ferry service, it is necessary to chose a period of revolution which is a unit fraction of 24 hours. Thus
    T1 = 2 hours = 7200 sec
    has been chosen.
    Equation (5.2) yields sqrt(Rs,E^3) = (7.2*10^3)/(3.13*10^(-10)) = 2.3*10(-13) and
    Rs,E = 8.11*10^8cm = 5040 miles
    as the distance of the orbit from the Earth's center. The altitude of the orbit above the Earth's surface is
    ys,E = Rs,E - RE = 173*10^8cm = 1075 miles
    The circular velocity in the orbit is
    Vcirc,1 = (2*Rs,E * tt)/T1 = 7.07*10^5cm/sec = 4.40 miles/sec
    17. Wheel Size and RPM
    The centrifugal acceleration in the rim is to be 0.3g = 294 cm/sec^2.
    Thus Vr^2/rL = 294 cm/sec^2
    Since the peripheral velocity of the rim is Vr = (2*rL*tt)/tL, the period of revolution becomes tL = (2tt/sqrt(294)*sqrt(rL) = 0.365*sqrt(rL)
    For a wheel radius rL = 3*10^3cm, thus
    tL = 20 sec.
    The wheel diameter at the flooring of the rim is DL* = 2*rL = 6*10^3 cm = 191 ft. and the total diameter approximately
    DL = 200 ft.
     
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  12. IchBinDieKaiser Casual Historian

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    .....:confused:
     
  13. Fenrir_Angerboda Guitar Dad Dads you

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    I think it's his plans for the Earlier mentioned 'Lunette'

    although why you feel the need to post it here, I have no Idea.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2009
  14. Tom Kalbfus Banned

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    Its a torus shaped space station 200 feet in diameter, orbiting the Earth once every two hours in an orbit perpendicular to the ecliptic, it can target nearly any point on the Earth's surface with nuclear weapons, a sort of space station reminescent of James Bond's Moonraker.

    Werner Von Braun is a bit of a mercenary, he was willing to work for the Nazis after all as they paid for his rocket research. The Von Braun of this timeline probably sees it this way, if he helps out the Kaisar in his over all military objectives, then perhaps he might fund his Mars project after Germany gains control over a large portion of the Earth's surface. Von Braun would probably be running the German's space program in this scenario, and the Kaisar would have to be a bit of a space junkie for this to work as a plot point. We could use a bit of international tensions between Germany and the rest of the world in this timeline. Von Braun is a bit of a bold thinker, planning a ten ship armada to explore Mars - this will be expensive of course, so he's willing to play his part in expanding the German Empire further, to gain influence and make the Empire better able to afford this mission. Conquering the rest of Europe would be very helpful towards this, he thinks.
     
  15. IchBinDieKaiser Casual Historian

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    I didn't like equations like this in school, and I don't like them now.
     
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  16. WilyBadger Proud Phoenician!

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    They're kind of interesting, but make my brain hurt. ;)
     
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  17. Tom Kalbfus Banned

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    I was actually quoting Von Braun's technical notes, from the back of his book, Project Mars, in that book, he imagines a World Government The United States of Earth, undertaking a massive Mars mission with 10 spaceships and 70 men. I believe in TL-191, that book would still get written, only in this case it would be the Reich that takes over the World and embarks upon this mission. Von Braun figures that the cost of this undertaking by 1980 would be more than any single nation could afford, so therefore we would need a World Government to do it, this is where the sinister aspect of this plot comes it, he's going to try to get Germany to build a battlestation in orbit as I just mentioned to help Germany to conquer the World so it would then have the resources to send this mission to Mars, that is the plan at any rate. In Project Mars, he also mentions that World War III occured in 1975, he probably figures that perhaps the Russians might start another War with Germany, or maybe Germany might say they started it and use that as a pretext to conquer Russia. Russia is in quite a bit of disarray now as it undergoes its second revolution. I don't think Baron Werner Von Braun has much sympathy with Socialists in either timeline, he is an aristocrat, and it has not gone unnoticed what happened to the Russian aristocracy during that second Russian Revolution. Von Braun is quite a conservative guy, and although Russia is Germany's enemy, he's beginning to see the Revolution as more as a class struggle between the aristocrats and the lower classes than as a contest between nations, its only a matter of time, he reckons, that something similar might happen to his country and family, socialism has international appeal and he wants to stamp it out, he probably has written several letters to the Kaisar in this regard.
     
  18. Michael B Doomfarer

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    He would be correct in that. It still applies now on OTL.
    Whilst he may not go into politics, he may actively support a pro-war party.

    In any event formation of a World Government by Germany is a non starter; the USA is too power. What is more likely that between they "demilitarise" Russia and Japan, divide the world into spheres of influence then embark on programmes of mutual interest such as fusion energy and spaceships to Mars.
     
  19. Tom Kalbfus Banned

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    I don't think Japan would be such a pushover though, in 1964, the Japanese Empire is probably more powerful than it was during the Second Great War, and its hard to imagine it not having nuclear weapons. The Japanese are also developing rapidily economically at this time. Combine the Japanese economic Miracle with the Japanese Empire and you have here a rapidly developing third Superpower, also with its conquered Chinese provinces, it has a larger population base - over time this Empire will make Japan more Chinese in character, that is if the Japanese hold onto it, sooner or later native Chinese will acquire positions of power and influence within the Japanese government. Those in power in Japan will be more interested in holding their Empire together rather than preserving its Japanese character. The Emperor himself won't mind Chinese subjects bowing to him, and if their skills prove useful, why not promote them?. As the Second Grat War fades into the past, Japanese and Chinese will have to build a working relationship, with other nuclear powers on the scene, further expansion of the Empire is no longer realistic, so the emphasis will be on developing the Empire economically, certain people will be exploited of course, but then a core of quislings will be groomed among the native populations in order to govern these conquered provinces, eventually like Rome, the Japanese Empire will become more cosmopolitian as other asian cultures influence Imperial culture. All Empires are like this from one extent to another, those that rule are more interested in preservung their power than in any sense of national chauvanism.
     
  20. Grimm Reaper Desperate But Not Serious

    Tom, Japan hasn't conquered all or even the majority of China in this TL and what you just said is utterly contradictory to how Japan actually handled all of her conquests.

    Even in Korea, where Japan had 40 years to moderate and work with the population, loyalty and sympathy for Japan was effectively nil.

    The idea of the Japanese leadership from OTL 1895-1945 being more interested in improving the empire than in preserving the Japanese character of the empire isn't alternate history, it's ASB territory.