The Unwanted Clairvoyant. A different French strategy in WW1

nbcman

Donor
Very tense, and almost a disaster.
It could still be a disaster with three fleets fighting in the dark. Hopefully the MN spotter aircraft are careful to only illuminate the AH ships in the future - or that there aren't any friendly fire incidents when the MN 1st Light Division and 1st Squadron get closer to Admiral Milne's forces.
 
It could still be a disaster with three fleets fighting in the dark. Hopefully the MN spotter aircraft are careful to only illuminate the AH ships in the future - or that there aren't any friendly fire incidents when the MN 1st Light Division and 1st Squadron get closer to Admiral Milne's forces.

One word.

CHAOSSSS!!!

Well the 3 forces just discovered they're borderline interlocked like 2 pieces of a puzzle: Haus wants to avoid this at all cost and Lapeyrère just hopes Milne can provide him enough time to close the net. Lapeyrère and Milne don't care about a melee at close range, even if it implies incidents: they want to bleed the KUK KM. For them, chaos is almost a thing which should last a bit longer.

I'm obviously disappointed that the French didn't blow the British BCs to smithereens but the KuK CLs were wrecked on the first salvo. :mad::biggrin:

What makes you smile and what makes you angry ? ;) And the battle isn't over yet. We're just seeing the opening moves.
 
Very tense, and almost a disaster.

It could well still be one, 8000 meters is NO range at all and at those ranges the 12-inch guns of the AH ships will punch through a BC's protection like a rifle through a beer can. The 9.4's will still have issues with the 6-inch belt but anywhere else save the turrets could be vulnerable. Milne needs to get his ships out of the line of fire and turn away, he simply can't slug it out with the KuK's battle line.

Basically Milne has to do this.

giphy.webp


And do it right away. A BC simply can't slug it out at 8k meters with Dreadnoughts. But if they've run across some of the older ships, they can probably engage them without too much risk, but if the KUK DN's fire on them ouch time.

Also Please please please please don't have RN battleships exploding due to turret hits.

The 'totally isn't an order but its an order' for BC's to store ammo in their turrets to increase ROF came from Beatty AFTER Dogger Bank, that's not happened yet AFAIK so that won't have come down and the flash protection would still be in place.
 
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18th December Adriatic Sea. 11:30 PM
18th December. 11:30 PM. The SMS Erzherzog Franz Ferdinand

Admiral Willenik receives the reports of Admiral Haus and realizes the danger which threatens its Squadron. He immediately orders to his ship to sail east and then north in order to join Haus while still fighting against the now identified enemy. Salvos are exchanged with little result until, finally, some hits occur: a 305 mm shell fired from the HMS Inflexible hits the rear turret of the SMS Maria Theresia presenting its rear while sailing east during its manoeuver, destroying it in the process and starting a fire which can been seen several kilometres away. On the British side, the HMS Indefatigable armoured belt is pierced by a 305mm shell from SMS Zrinyi. As the hit is above the waterline, nothing vital has been damaged but 5 men have died on the spot while a dozen suffer serious injuries and a minor fire and some lights can be seen through the hole.

18th December. 11:32 PM. The HMS Indefatigable.

Admiral Milne is informed of the hit but doesn’t consider it as a serious thing. On the other hand, he now sees the large silhouette of a ship from which flames are erupting. Orders are soon delivered to concentrate the fire from the 3 battlecruisers and 3 armoured cruisers (including the French cruiser Waldeck-Rousseau) against what is temporarily depicted as a “large enemy vessel, likely a small battleship”. While sailing towards their targets, the six ships continue to pound the Austrian cruiser, which is practically unable to retaliate and is in a matter of minutes reduced to a slow-sinking burning wreck.

But in the meantime, Willenik maintains its fire while retreating, concentrating everything he had at its disposal against the now concentrated succession of flashes. The HMS Inflexible is hit once, disabling two of its 101 mm guns and starting a minor fire, as are the HMS Black Prince and Waldeck-Rousseau.

But while the Entente ships, now sailing at a speed of 18 knots in order to slightly increase the current distance with Willenik’s battleships (a safety measure in order to protect the armoured cruisers while still benefiting from their firepower), a series of detonations and explosions can be heard north of their position.

18th December. 11: 40 PM. The light cruiser HMS Dublin

The British light cruiser HMS Dublin, escorted by her two sisters (HMS Chatham and Gloucester) and 16 destroyers, spot are large formation of unidentified destroyers sailing right towards her: the captains of the 16 KUK Navy destroyers, mainly Huszar 400 tons ships led by 3 Tatra 800 tons destroyers, are now fully aware that the longer Willenik is pursued by the British ships, the more likely he won’t be able to escape.

Forcing their boilers and reaching 28 knots, the Austrian destroyers are now launching what can been depicted as “naval cavalry charge”, aiming at breaking through the British line at all cost and reaching the capital ships.

On the British side, the 16 destroyers are forming forming a battle line, thus partially crossing their opponent’s T. At 11:45 PM, 32 torpedoes are hastily launched while the distance between the two forces has been reduced to less than 3000 metres. But as the Austrian destroyers are only presenting their bow to the enemy, many torpedoes miss them and continue their course while the sailors can see a trail of bubbles sometimes nearly brushing the flanks of their vessels. Two ships are hit though: the SMS Warasdiner (a 350 ton destroyer initially built for the Chinese government), which sank in a tremendous explosion with the entire loss of its crew (75 men), while the Scharfschutze is hit near the bow but somewhat maintains its course at a considerably reduced speed course in spite of progressively sinking: the commander has just enough time to order to launch a torpedo when the other destroyers do so before ordering to abandon the ship.

This salvo of 15 torpedoes proves to be more effective than its British counterparts as the British destroyers, forming a battle line, present their flanks to the enemy. The HMS Rattlesnake and Grasshopper are hit and sunk with heavy losses while the HMS Foxhound is torpedoed itself but managed to continue to fight while its compartments are flowed one after another.

What follows is a duel of an extreme violence, mixing torpedoes and gunfire at a reduced to extremely close range, as both sides are aware of the importance of their respective missions. In these conditions. Friendly fire occurs on both sides as well as the British and Austro-Hungarians sometimes confound the silhouettes of the Tatra and Beagle class destroyers.

At midnight, already 4 Austrian and 5 British destroyers are sunk or sinking with the others often often suffered minor to significant damages. However, the intensity of the fighting doesn’t decline.

At 00:05 PM, on now December the 19th, the SMS Triglav, so far relatively intact in spite of some hits on her bridge and superstructure, manages to sail near the HMS Chatham, which almost ignore her enemy in the middle of the still brutal struggle, believing in fact for a few seconds that it’s a damaged Beagle destroyer leaving the fight. At barely 500 metres, and when the British light cruiser’s captain realizes its mistake, the SMS Triglav has already launched four torpedoes. All hit and tear apart the hull of the Chatham which breaks in half and sinks within seconds with her nearly entire crew.

But SMS Triglav’s triumph is brief has the HMS Gloucester now pounds her at close range, devastating her bridge and then performing numerous hits under her waterline. Ten minutes later, the Triglav is sinking herself while the Gloucester ignores the survivors in order to join the melee.

At 00:30, the fighting progressively dies down as both sides have suffered heavy to grievous casualties: the Austrians have lost 6 destroyers (including one Tatra) while the Royal Navy has lost one light cruiser and 5 destroyers. With now 10 destroyers of mostly medium displacement, the Austro-Hungarians doubt that they can break through the British lines which can still rely on 2 cruisers and 10 large destroyers. Furthermore, it seems that the struggle between the British and Austrian battleships have become more and more distant.

At 00:40, both sides retreat as no one is able to realistically pursue its adversary. At this moment, the British and Austrian crews hear a succession of more numerous and louder explosions coming from the southeast.
 
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If the Austrian ships are bows on to the British how do they launch torpedoes?
Or are they making a 180 degree turn & launching as they turn?

Although I am surprised both sides are "wasting" torpedoes against destroyers that's what guns were for. The ability to make a night torpedo attack against enemy capital ships are what a destroyer captain dreams of.
 
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Why would you hate to criticize this TL?
Because it is so good and represents so much hard work. I have Liked every post, but I haven't contributed much in the way of comments or praise; I feel like a nothing-is-good-enough naysayer.

Now let's discuss our problem hear. The cruisers are less than 5000 meters and already moving and no more head-on to the French ships. They just beginning to present their flank.
Second the probability of hitting those ships, based on the studies of previous battles during nightly figthings, would be around 2,5 percents, each cruiser "receiving 40 to 60 heavy shells". For me, the fact that these ships shout be hit is a mathematic certainty. But while re-reading my udpate, I realize that I maybe overestimate the number of hits for the first salvo. Still a 305 or 240mm shell is going to create an ermous amout of flames and damages on a 3500 tons ship.

May I summarize how this action appears to unfold?

It's 11 PM on a moonless night in December. (Are there clouds or fog?)

Despite these conditions, French seaplanes succeed in locating two Austrian ships steaming SE. They shadow these ships, and drop flares around them just as they approach the French battle line.

All the French ships immediately open fire on the Austrian ships with all their guns, scoring a number of hits and destroying both vessels.

This scenario would not be plausible during World War II, thirty years later.

In the first place, it is highly unlikely that the French seaplanes would even be flying at night. Night operations were cutting-edge during World War II, when planes and ships were far more advanced. In 1914, night flying was rightly considered extremely risky, even from fixed bases on land. At sea, where the surface is featureless and one's base moves around? Suicide. Bear in mind there are no radios for communication.

Finding the Austrian ships would be odds-on as well. Again, note that during WW II, finding a ship at night was difficult. That was true even in clear weather; what are the odds that over the Adriatic in December, there would be clouds and fog?

Then the planes drop flares. Why do they drop flares at that particular time? They have no way of knowing where the French fleet is, nor is there any way for them to communicate with the fleet or each other.

Then the battle fleet opens fire. They have had only a fleeting glimpse of the Austrian vessels; aer they under orders to fire at the first available target? I would doubt it. Firing would be only at the order of the fleet commander. Which would have to be sent by signal lamp, as there is no talk-between-ships radio.
 
If the Austrian ships are bows on to the British how do they launch torpedoes?
Or are they making a 180 degree turn & launching as they turn?
The Huzar destroyers had a bow torpedo tube just behind their main gun: they just had to change their course of a few degrees to launch a torpedo against their traget while still sailing almost right towards it (unlike the Beagle or French most recent destroyers whose torpedo tubes were in the middle or rear of the destroyer).
Because it is so good and represents so much hard work. I have Liked every post, but I haven't contributed much in the way of comments or praise; I feel like a nothing-is-good-enough naysayer.



May I summarize how this action appears to unfold?

It's 11 PM on a moonless night in December. (Are there clouds or fog?)

Despite these conditions, French seaplanes succeed in locating two Austrian ships steaming SE. They shadow these ships, and drop flares around them just as they approach the French battle line.

All the French ships immediately open fire on the Austrian ships with all their guns, scoring a number of hits and destroying both vessels.

This scenario would not be plausible during World War II, thirty years later.

In the first place, it is highly unlikely that the French seaplanes would even be flying at night. Night operations were cutting-edge during World War II, when planes and ships were far more advanced. In 1914, night flying was rightly considered extremely risky, even from fixed bases on land. At sea, where the surface is featureless and one's base moves around? Suicide. Bear in mind there are no radios for communication.

Finding the Austrian ships would be odds-on as well. Again, note that during WW II, finding a ship at night was difficult. That was true even in clear weather; what are the odds that over the Adriatic in December, there would be clouds and fog?

Then the planes drop flares. Why do they drop flares at that particular time? They have no way of knowing where the French fleet is, nor is there any way for them to communicate with the fleet or each other.

Then the battle fleet opens fire. They have had only a fleeting glimpse of the Austrian vessels; aer they under orders to fire at the first available target? I would doubt it. Firing would be only at the order of the fleet commander. Which would have to be sent by signal lamp, as there is no talk-between-ships radio.
Thanks for the compliment and the comment. :)

Generally, the middle of the Adriatic Sea does not often has clouds or fogs and during winter, rain concentrates itself along the mountainous coasts (or the coast with the first real obstacle) because of the winter wind ("Bora" I think). So there is still a chance that the 17/18/19th december were rainy and foggy day along the dalmatian coastline but less in open seas (even if it exists): but the SMS Radetzky left Cattaro on the 17th: I don't think it did that on a foggy and rainy day because Cattaro was protected by minefields. Even if you know where they are, to sail in the middle of a fog/rain could lead to an accident.

It's indeed moonless night. More specifically, it's the night after the moonless night.

The French didn't immediately opened fire because Lapeyrère didn't give the order because he knew those silhouettes were likely parts of a scouting force which would warn Haus. So he hesitated. The French seaplanes did launch several flares several times while the French were aiming/and correcting their aim as the minutes went by. This is not a "I see something, I shoot" but "I see something several times and I follow it with my guns". Here the probability indicates that every cruiser should have been hit at least once, then turning them into easy targets because of flames.

About the seaplanes, Oldbill already indicated me this problem (and I didn't know it back then so I intend to use this new knowledge for the other updates and the conclusion). And I specify that in the Milne update how Milne perceives the "great risk" the French pilots are accepting here.

The seaplanes know the coordinates of the French fleet and roughly the Milne's ones (which -btw- lead them to illuminate Milne by mistake, thus warning Willenik about his presence). It worked for Lapeyrère, it failed for Milne. The French seaplanes here did a grave mistake because they haven't wireless equipment in 1914, just coordinates given before leaving. And then Milne use the only way to communicate with the seaplanes: light signals. Another unintended mistake. And from above, there are several ways to spot a ship, a single light from a room because the curtain wasn't correctly placed, a man smoking a cigarette etc. The more it gets dark, the more you can perceive the tiniest source of light.

Lapeyrère was adamant about the necessity of equiping the French warships with wireless rooms when he was Minister of the Navy back in 1909-1911 and then insisted that a the very least the battleships should communicate betweem them with this new tool (and as commander of the Mediterranean warships after 1911, he did led several exercises to this regard). So the fact that he communicate through wireless rooms with the other battleships in 1914 is logical since he trained them to do so OTL before WW1.

And I already modified the update we're talking about to reduce the quantity of damage of the first salvo, adding one or two things etc. following your previous comment. But if you think it's still not good enough., then PM me and we could again find some kind of compromise :)
 
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Driftless

Donor
My question is, is Von Trapp involved in this battle?
:biggrin:

I think our author has the KuK submarines well north of this battle zone closer to Pola, partly due to their limited speed. Though, this shootout appears headed towards a fighting chase, so maybe the submarines (from both sides?) come into play.
 
Something people may find of interest for this era is John Biggins "Otto Prohaska" novels in which the central protagonist is an officer in the post-war & WW1 Austrian navy. It's a 3 book series & appears to be available in Amazon kindle.
 
19th December 1914. 00:40 AM. Adriatic Sea
19th December. 00:40 AM.

The duel between Willenik and Milne increases in terms of intensity even if the British ships try to remain at least beyond 9000 metres from their opponent. Salvos respond to salvos, but with a slowly growing efficiency as on both sides, damages turn the ships into more noticeable targets. On the Austrian side, the SMS Erzherzog Franz Ferdinand (Willenik’s flagship) and the SMS Erzherzog Ferdinand Max are the most damaged, albeit the latter is still fully able to fight and to maintain a top speed as nothing really vital has been hit.

On the British side, the three Battlecruisers have sustained significant but so far not serious damages. Milne is concerned by the fact that he will be at some point forced to disengage its fleet unless some French reinforcements arrive in time.

Above the naval battlefield, one the seaplane has used its entire stockpile of flares. Shortly after, its pilot remarks a trouble with his engines. With no other option, he tries to fly away from the fight when his engines stop working. The pilot has then no other choice to attempt an emergency landing, being fully aware of the perils of such an exercise. After having ricocheted like a flat stone on the surface of the sea, the pilot loses the control of its aircraft which crashes a few seconds later. The pilot dies on the spot, his neck broken, while the observer manages to leave the slowly sinking wreck and to use a floating piece of the plane as an improvised raft.

While this plane crashed, one 305mm shell hits one of the central turret of the HMS Indefatigable, destroying it in the process in an impressive explosion. Milne is informed at once but the surviving officers and men near the turret have already closed all the doors and flooded the ammunition room, avoiding a potential catastrophe. The ship is depicted as still able to fight but Milne sees the damage as a warning and prepares an order, announcing to the British Fleet to increase the distance between herself and Willenik. But a few seconds later, a 240mm shell crashes into the citadel, devastating the bridge in the process.

19th December. 00:55 AM. The HMS Black Prince

On the bridge of his own flagship, Rear-Admiral Troubridge contemplates the explosion engulfing the command bridge of the Indefatigable and tries to contact the ship with all the means at his disposal. Ten minutes later, light signals are sent by the wounded battlecruiser: “Command Bridge destroyed. Most of the officers dead or wounded. Admiral Milne unable to command”. It would be later revealed that the acting captain of the ship was a simple lieutenant. At this moment, Troubridge becomes the acting commander of the British Mediterranean Fleet. A few seconds later, another explosion occurs, this time 9000 metres away.

19th December. 1:05 AM. Above the SMS Erzherzog Franz Ferdinand

The surviving French seaplane was circling above the KUK Squadron, firing its last flare when 66 mm shells begin to hissing towards her. One of them explodes near the observer, killing him while gravely damaging the plane which begins to dive. Unable to climb back and certain he will crash into the sea in the next few seconds, the pilot then manages, in an ultimate effort, to dive towards the closest ship. Austrian sailors and officers see a flaming machine roaring towards them and try to evacuate the bridge as fast as possible. Five seconds later, the plane crashes between the citadel and the first funnel of the SMS Erzherzog Franz Ferdinand, starting a fire which reaches rowboats, piles of ropes and ultimately a stockpile of 47mm shells which detonate one after the other.

19th December. 1:10 AM. The HMS Black Prince

RA Troubridge sees the flames engulfing a portion of a large Austrian battleship, thus illuminating it far more than the others. While a brief instant tempted to order a partial retreat in order to avoid damages like the ones Indefatigable sustained, the British Officer then changes his mind and gives the following order to his fleet with all the means at his disposal: “To all ships, concentrate your fire against the most visible target. Sink it at all cost”. Then another message is sent to Lapeyrère and every French ship nearby: “Heavy fighting against Austro-Hungarian vessels. Reinforcements required as soon as possible”.
 
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