The Sun, The Stars and The Sickle: Alt-WWII and a Tripolar Postwar World

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Jaenera Targaryen

Jaenera Targaryen

The landings at Shanghai aside, one problem the Allies will soon face is numbers. Not logistics, at least as long as they stay along the coast. They can be supplied by sea via the port cities, or by rail from Manchukuo. I imagine maintaining/repairing the railways will be top priority, as will be protecting them.

It's when they start advancing inland that's going to be a problem, like IOTL with the Japanese during the Second Sino-Japanese War. The Union of China angle helps, but it's not a cure-all, and there's also the fact that at present, the US Army doesn't really have the numbers to match the millions Jiang Jieshi can throw around. After the initial coastal engagements, I predict the Japanese and the Union of China having to do the heavy lifting for a while until the Americans can build up the numbers.

The British will probably send ANZACs to beef up their forces, maybe Indians as well.
 
Mengjiang Primer
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    • WaterproofPotatoes

    WaterproofPotatoes

    Chiang will also be reeling from the failed attack on Tsingtao, and "Dugout Doug" will be observing the lessons keenly. He is a lot of things, but he isn't stupid.

    The training the US forces received will pay off as well. The Manila Gang has been training together and, for all their faults, exhibit superb coordination together. As of late, they have been joined by Marine Corps Brigadier General Alexander "Archie" Vandergrift.

    In ROC news, Chen Cheng will be the commander of the National Army forces defending Shanghai. The prominent general Bai Chongxi has joined with the UoC.
    ---

    A quick primer on TTL's Mengjiang:

    De_Wang_uniform.jpg


    Demchugdongrub "De" Khan in Mengjiang National Army uniform

    OTL, Mengjiang only lasted as an independent state between 1936 and 1940, before it was absorbed by Wang Jingwei's Reformed ROC, and was an autonomous region. TTL, things are a little different.

    Kenkichi Ueda, commander of the Kwantung Army from mid 1932 to late 1933, firmly believed that the biggest threat to Japan's ambitions lay to the North- the Soviet Union, and wanted to grab as much land as he could in China's northern provinces, for resources and to act as a buffer. Where OTL Mengjiang was, was the site of his 1933 land grab campaign, not ordered by Tokyo. Although much of it was sparsely populated, the large city of Kalgan, an important railway hub, and the traditional "Northern Gateway" to Beijing lay within its borders.

    The occupation was less difficult than anticipated, as Ueda found a willing partner in Demchugdongrub of the Plain White Banner, a popular Mongol leader. By being offered the position of Head of State and freedom for the Mongol people within fledgling Mengjiang's borders, he willingly worked with the Japanese. Ueda was replaced in late 1933 for this and other insubordinate actions, and Muto took command. His soft approach helped to ensure smooth relations.

    When rapprochement with Britain began in 1934, no further land grabs took place. Instead, the goal was to strengthen Mengjiang's position and give the state legitimacy.

    As it is to be a Mongol homeland, Prince De is entitled to the title of "Khan" and often attends state functions in traditional Mongol garb. In addition to keeping Mongol traditions alive, the same soft approaches that are effective in Manchukuo are used in Mengjiang: compulsory education, a law-and-order campaign with a strong anti-drug focus, development of industry (mainly agriculture, mining, transportation and light industry); a low tax rate and simplified incorporation procedures also serve to attract outside investment. Prince De, much like Prince Regent Pujie, cares deeply about his people, and recognizes their accomplishments.

    The Mengjiang National Army is much smaller than the Manchukuo Imperial Army, and, as such, Mengjiang relies on Japan more directly for protection.

    That Mengjiang has had a few more years to mature and the governing policies are more cohesive and effective means that Mengjiang is a much stronger state, and, as such, won't simply be appended to Manchukuo.
     
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    • Jaenera Targaryen

    Jaenera Targaryen

    General Bai is good, very good. For the Allies, at least. For Jiang and his clique? Not so much. General Chen...from what I know, he's one of Jiang's cronies, at least IOTL. Were it not for the fact that Shanghai will be an urban battlefield, I'd predict an easy win for the Allies. It can be counted on that he'll try and use that to his advantage, and no doubt MacArthur will try to counter Chen's superior numbers and the environmental difficulties with artillery.

    As I said before, lots of Shanghai is going to be reduced to rubble. The Union of China is not going to be happy, or for that matter the locals. I also imagine a lot of grumbling from people back home about MacArthur's methods in this scenario.
     
    WaterproofPotatoes

    WaterproofPotatoes

    Jaenera Targaryen said:
    The landings at Shanghai aside, one problem the Allies will soon face is numbers. Not logistics, at least as long as they stay along the coast. They can be supplied by sea via the port cities, or by rail from Manchukuo. I imagine maintaining/repairing the railways will be top priority, as will be protecting them.

    It's when they start advancing inland that's going to be a problem, like IOTL with the Japanese during the Second Sino-Japanese War. The Union of China angle helps, but it's not a cure-all, and there's also the fact that at present, the US Army doesn't really have the numbers to match the millions Jiang Jieshi can throw around. After the initial coastal engagements, I predict the Japanese and the Union of China having to do the heavy lifting for a while until the Americans can build up the numbers.

    The British will probably send ANZACs to beef up their forces, maybe Indians as well.
    Click to expand...

    That is an excellent assessment.

    It's similar to the problems, TTL, that Tojo already experienced in 1940. Outnumbered and with supply lines stretched, his forces got pushed back towards Manchukuo and Mengjiang. The big objectives will be to take Shanghai and Nanking, but then there's going to be the matter of taking Wuhan and Chongqing, which will be much harder, especially with a better trained and equipped National Army with Pz. IIIs and StuGs aplenty.

    EDIT: It also doesn't help that the UoC is on the wrong side of the country; they can only move so much so fast through Manchukuo and Mengjiang as well.

    The IJA also employs a lot of railway troops; there is considerable emphasis on keeping the railways open.

    The ANZACS will also make an appearance, as will Indian troops, under Wavell's command.

    Jaenera Targaryen said:
    General Bai is good, very good. For the Allies, at least. For Jiang and his clique? Not so much. General Chen...from what I know, he's one of Jiang's cronies, at least IOTL. Were it not for the fact that Shanghai will be an urban battlefield, I'd predict an easy win for the Allies. It can be counted on that he'll try and use that to his advantage, and no doubt MacArthur will try to counter Chen's superior numbers and the environmental difficulties with artillery.

    As I said before, lots of Shanghai is going to be reduced to rubble. The Union of China is not going to be happy, or for that matter the locals. I also imagine a lot of grumbling from people back home about MacArthur's methods in this scenario.
    Click to expand...

    Chen is indeed a crony TTL as well, and Bai is no less effective. That Bai's Hui people are welcomed into the UOC forces and explicitly treated the same as Han troops is a huge boost for him.

    Mac will also try to be at least somewhat cautious, as there are considerable American business interests in Shanghai, but there's the tricky bit- nobody wants a pile of rubble that they own, nor a pristine city that he doesn't. Washington will be watching with interest, and much is riding on whether "Vinegar Joe" Stilwell's boys or Willoughby reach Mac's ears first with intelligence.
     
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    Lascaris

    Lascaris

    Jaenera Targaryen said:
    The landings at Shanghai aside, one problem the Allies will soon face is numbers. Not logistics, at least as long as they stay along the coast. They can be supplied by sea via the port cities, or by rail from Manchukuo. I imagine maintaining/repairing the railways will be top priority, as will be protecting them.

    It's when they start advancing inland that's going to be a problem, like IOTL with the Japanese during the Second Sino-Japanese War. The Union of China angle helps, but it's not a cure-all, and there's also the fact that at present, the US Army doesn't really have the numbers to match the millions Jiang Jieshi can throw around. After the initial coastal engagements, I predict the Japanese and the Union of China having to do the heavy lifting for a while until the Americans can build up the numbers.

    The British will probably send ANZACs to beef up their forces, maybe Indians as well.
    Click to expand...

    on the other hand these millions need to be kept supplied in arms and munitions. Where are they getting them when surrounded by hostile powers? Their German equipment will be a wasting asset I doubt they managed to get self sufficient.
     
    Double, Double, Toil and Trouble...
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    • WaterproofPotatoes

    WaterproofPotatoes

    July 24th, 1941

    Nanking, Republic of China

    A nondescript basement

    11:38 PM

    Soong Chingling:
    220px-Soong_Ching-ling_1937.jpg


    Li Jishen:

    220px-Li_Jishen.jpg



    THAT Chiang's leadership had become questionable was undeniable. But, who would do something about it?

    China was in turmoil. Even with German training and armament, the National Army was suffering a series of defeats. Chiang refused to listen to anyone who didn't already agree with him; and his repulsive advisor, Eichmann, was often at his side, along with Du Yusheng. Voices of reason, such as Falkenhausen, were shouted down.

    Soong Chingling , the widow of Sun Yat-Sen and power-broker in her own right and, Li Jishen, a member of the State Council in the Kuomintang finally met, alone.

    "Li, is it as bad as we have feared?" asked a nervous Soong

    "Worse" said a distressed Li. "He won't listen to anybody. We pleaded with him not to... he wouldn't listen. Eichmann insisted that now was the time to attack Tsingtao, that the Japanese would break. Of course they didn't! It was a massacre. Thousands dead, and Tsingtao is untouched. Wu, and Sun Chuanfang tried to warn us, but...he would't listen."

    "A plague on those traitors too!" hissed Soong. "They would sell us out to the Americans, while collaborating with the Japanese and the British in carving up China. They can call their little Beiyang Clique whatever they like, but they're still the same warlords they always were! That will never change!"

    "Bai has defected to them as well. This does not look good" said an even more downcast Li.

    "This must end, and end soon" said Soong, with newfound fervor. "Li, who will he listen to?"

    "Wang, perhaps" said Li. "Wang will have to make whatever he says sound like it was Chiang's idea in the first place if he'll listen at all though"

    Soong nodded. "Wang... I do not entirely trust him yet, but if you could reach out, perhaps we could make some progress. The big question, of course, is would Wang prove strong and convincing enough to sway Mao?"

    "That, I am not convinced. He... Wang- drifts farther from revolutionary ideas by the day. He wears the cloak of such thought to confound supporters of Mao"

    "We don't need him necessarily" said a frustrated Soong. "But if the Revolutionary True Kuomintang is not to die in the darkness of this damp cellar, we must find more allies. We will need them across the Left and Right. Above all, they must remember what Dr. Sun lived and died for. Chiang has forgotten, and that is why we are in this mess."


    ---


    Tokyo, Empire of Japan

    Army Ministry

    9:34 PM

    Kotohito, Prince Kan'in:
    220px-Prince_Kanin_Kotohito%28cropped%29.jpg



    Prince Morimasa Nashimoto:
    iu


    IN a boardroom sat two of the most important people in the Imperial Japanese Army; Marshals-General Army Minister Prince Kan'in Kotohito, and Chief of General Staff Prince Morimasa Nashimoto. There was a major reorganization in progress: the North and Central China Area Armies were to be reorganized into the 1st China Expeditionary Army, commanded by Count Hisaichi Terauchi, in order to simplify the command structure. The 2nd CEA, under General Tomoyuki Yamashita's command would be in charge of operations in China's south and Indochina.

    Politically, support for the war remained enthusiastic, and Prince Fuminaro Konoe (Independent) managed to win another resounding victory in the last election based on his support for the war in China and cultivating strong relations with Britain and "mutual respect" with the United States. He also voiced his support for the reformation of political parties when the war was over.

    The problem lay in Manchukuo. What to do with Tojo and Sugiyama?

    That Tojo's performance was disappointing lately was no secret, but he maintained his incredible energy, and did so while under great strain. Such an admirable effort could not be punished, lest it create a wave of sympathizers. The bigger problem was that neither Tojo nor Sugiyama were enthusiastic about the upcoming ceasefire agreement with the Union of China, which would supersede the current temporary ceasefire. That could seriously jeopardize Japanese ambitions.

    Generals Iwane Matsui and Otozo Yamada were the preliminary choices for Commander and Chief of Staff of the Kwantung Army respectively.

    Tojo as Assistant Deputy Army Minister and Sugiyama as an instructor at the War College was the most palatable solution- prestigious positions, but ones which were closely monitored- and ones which would be far less conspicuous, should an officer be placed on the Reserve List afterwards.

    "Matsui?" asked Prince Morimasa, as Prince Kan'in raised an eyebrow

    "You're right" said Prince Kan'in, scratching his chin. "To have the negotiator take command afterwards seems too... political, and too deliberate a humiliation of Tojo. Of course, the intention is not to humiliate Tojo but to... maneuver him."

    "Hata would be my choice" said Prince Morimasa confidently. "Matsui, with his experience could be rotated to the role of Inspector-General; it would be less taxing on his health than the cold, dry climate of Manchukuo as well. Hata has proven himself capable, and he is knowledgeable about the political aspects of command."

    Prince Kan'in nodded in agreement. "Ushiroku can be reassigned to Taihoku; that position will be important as well. That, and a recommendation for the Order of the Sacred Treasure would be... appropriate consolation for the smaller command. The defence of Tsingtao was executed superbly."

    "I couldn't be more pleased." said Prince Morimasa. "On that matter, I have received a request for recommendation Lieutenant-Colonel Matsuda of the 3rd Manchukuo Imperial Guards for the Order of the Golden Kite, 1st Class. A colonial unit, they withstood a mechanized assault and broke it without flinching."

    Prince Kan'in nodded his approval. "I'll certainly give my recommendation as well. Well done!"
     
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    WaterproofPotatoes

    Lascaris said:
    on the other hand these millions need to be kept supplied in arms and munitions. Where are they getting them when surrounded by hostile powers? Their German equipment will be a wasting asset I doubt they managed to get self sufficient.
    Click to expand...

    Industries in Guangdong Province, and much of the rest of southeastern China are capable of making the equipment, albeit not at the pace required by the National Army. They have the tooling for the Bf-109 D and E, the Ju-87 and He 111. In armour, they can produce the Pz. I-III (and are to receive plans for the Pz. IV) and early StuG models. They are capable of making the K98 as well, but rely on the Czech Zb vz 26 as their light machine gun, and reverse-engineered Lewis and Vickers models as well, as all MG-34s were imported.

    There is much Soviet equipment in use as well. Officially, the RoC is neutral with the Soviet Union, which used to supply her, and allowed German supplies to pass as well (which is not happening now).
     

    skarosianlifeform

    The major problem for Chiang will be the USAF combined with the IJAAF. They can methodically destroy factories, mines, railways and roads, until the Chinese military industry simply ceases to exist and can't be rebuilt, not to mention provide massive air support to any Allied army. Once the RoC military industry is dead, and stockpiles of modern weapons and ammo run out, the way will be wide open for Japan, the USA, British Empire and Union of China (and depending on the date USSR) invading the RoC.
     

    Neko Tamo

    Not that alt!WW2 isn't fun but anyone else antsy to see the actual tripolar cold war? :p

    I am very curious what will sour Imperial-US relations and just how, well cold things will get.
     
    WaterproofPotatoes

    WaterproofPotatoes

    Neko Tamo said:
    Not that alt!WW2 isn't fun but anyone else antsy to see the actual tripolar cold war? :p

    I am very curious what will sour Imperial-US relations and just how, well cold things will get.
    Click to expand...

    I'm just as antsy and I'm the one writing it!

    For everything to make sense, however, sometimes the pace slows a bit by necessity, hence why July 1941 has lasted so long!

    skarosianlifeform said:
    The major problem for Chiang will be the USAF combined with the IJAAF. They can methodically destroy factories, mines, railways and roads, until the Chinese military industry simply ceases to exist and can't be rebuilt, not to mention provide massive air support to any Allied army. Once the RoC military industry is dead, and stockpiles of modern weapons and ammo run out, the way will be wide open for Japan, the USA, British Empire and Union of China (and depending on the date USSR) invading the RoC.
    Click to expand...

    The one saving grace thus far is that Japan lacks any 4-engine heavies yet; although the IJN is having Nakajima commence design work on the G8N. The USAAF is also further developing the B-17.

    Another big problem for the ROC- the UOC isn't going to be on the wrong side of the country, if the Prince Regent of Manchukuo and the Khan of Mengjiang grant transit rights.

    Speaking of which, the Mengjiang National Army may be small, but the officers' swords TTL are patterned after Mongol sabres!
     
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    Jaenera Targaryen

    Jaenera Targaryen

    skarosianlifeform said:
    The major problem for Chiang will be the USAF combined with the IJAAF. They can methodically destroy factories, mines, railways and roads, until the Chinese military industry simply ceases to exist and can't be rebuilt, not to mention provide massive air support to any Allied army. Once the RoC military industry is dead, and stockpiles of modern weapons and ammo run out, the way will be wide open for Japan, the USA, British Empire and Union of China (and depending on the date USSR) invading the RoC.
    Click to expand...

    Not railways and roads, moving men and supplies in China is very hard as it is already, bombing the infrastructure is likely to result in angry arguments between the army and the aviators.
     
    WaterproofPotatoes

    WaterproofPotatoes

    In naval news, the German battleship Bismarck has successfully completed her sea trials, and her sister Tirpitz is nearly complete as well, and expected to commence her trials before 1941 is out.
     
    Yatta

    Yatta

    Donor
    Some questions.
    1. What is the state of the IJNs radar: detection only or linked to the fire control computer?
    2. How is the state of the IJNs damage control compared to OTL?
    3. What is the state of their carriers and planes: do they have CICs and radios or are they like OTL?
     
    WaterproofPotatoes

    WaterproofPotatoes

    Yatta said:
    Some questions.
    1. What is the state of the IJNs radar: detection only or linked to the fire control computer?
    2. How is the state of the IJNs damage control compared to OTL?
    3. What is the state of their carriers and planes: do they have CICs and radios or are they like OTL?
    Click to expand...

    1. The IJN's gunnery radar is in a much better state than OTL. Their ships use either imported or licence-produced British radar equipment. The Amagi, and Kongo class ships were either reconstructed with or had retrofitted fire control computer linked radar, the Tosa and Nagato classes are either having it installed or awaiting a refit to do it. The Fuso and Ise carrier hybrids have received it in their recent reconstructions.

    2. Damage control is much better. RN practices were incorporated, and sailors that have had more and better training and the better material state of the ships contribute as well.

    3. New carrier planes, from the Zero onwards, have radio control. It is also being retrofitted to B5N torpedo bombers.
     
    Christmas In July
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    WaterproofPotatoes

    In the spirit of Christmas, now is a good time to detail the ceasefire between the Union of China and the Empire of Japan!

    The agreement was finalized on July 25th, 1941.

    The essential parts of the bargain are:

    -The Union of China is recognized by Japan as the legitimate government of China. It is led by Provisional President Wu Peifu and Provisional Vice-President Sun Chuanfang.

    -In return, the Union of China provisionally recognizes Manchukuo and Mengjiang until Chiang either surrenders or an unconditional surrender is achieved. Eleven nations go one step further- Britain, France, Japan, the Netherlands, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Thailand, Norway and the Polish Government in Exile fully recognize both states.

    -Pujie, Prince Regent of Manchukuo and Prince De, Khan of Mengjiang, grant transit rights to UoC forces with prior notice.

    -Beijing will be handed over to the Union of China as of September 1st, 1941.

    -Japan will occupy the Liaoning Peninsula and 50km of land closest to the coast from there as far south as Tsingtao, until hostilities against Chiang cease. This is officially done to secure the coast and for ease of supply, and proved the most controversial part of the ceasefire. Tianjin will be turned over to the UoC as well, with Japanese transit rights through the city and a concession within it.

    - The UoC joins the Allies
     
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