The Sun, The Stars and The Sickle: Alt-WWII and a Tripolar Postwar World

[WaterproofPotatoes]

Well, at this stage I now happen to wonder..... What % completion are the ships?
One sailed through on her own so what? 60% when that happened. Maybe 70-80% now?
The other was a barge, and a barely floating one at that. I give her 20% MAX (And that is being generous) at that stage. Maybe 30-40% now.

Actually, typing that I remembered something about 'substandard quality' and 'lots of rework required'. If that applies the higher % ship, she may be back to say 50% completion (Due to ripping junk out) and the other one maybe 30%? (Less junk to rip out!).

Can anybody shed light on this please? How far from completion are both ships?

Sovetskiy Soyouz, the one in Narvik is around 60% complete, but no work is currently being done.

Sovetskaya Rossiya was completed to about 55%, but much of the later work was found to be rushed and substandard, although the early work was good. She likely went down to about 40% completion (a real blessing as had all the ship been substandard, completion wouldn't have been worth it). Now she's back at around 60-65% with better workmanship.

Sovetskaya Ukrainiya was the one in barge form, and the centre of the Marmara Crisis. However, the complex keel laying work (TTL's SS class ships have a unique three keel layout) was done correctly, and there was little to strip away. Because she's substantially less complete to begin with, she's a more Italian ship to begin with and work progresses faster. She even has Italian Belluzzo turbines instead of the licenced Brown-Boveri turbines of her sisters. She's about 40-45% complete.

 

[Yatta]

I wonder if the Soviets can "sell" Ukrainiya to pay for the completion of Sovietskiy Rossiya.

 

[Jaenera Targaryen]

You know, if the Soviets are that desperate for money, why not sell Soviet Sakhalin to Japan?

 

[WaterproofPotatoes]

You know, if the Soviets are that desperate for money, why not sell Soviet Sakhalin to Japan?

That would be one of those matters of national pride- with losing so much territory already, the last thing Stalin wants is to lose even more, and he distrusts Japan more than any other ally. It is all but certain that the tokko (pretty much exclusively devoted to rooting out Communists TTL) would comb through the population to root out any agents that Stalin tries to leave behind. It also likely means another IJN base near Soviet borders, at the very least an air station which can put bombers closer to Moscow.

 

[Bookmark1995]

You know, if the Soviets are that desperate for money, why not sell Soviet Sakhalin to Japan?

That would be one of those matters of national pride- with losing so much territory already, the last thing Stalin wants is to lose even more, and he distrusts Japan more than any other ally. It is all but certain that the tokko (pretty much exclusively devoted to rooting out Communists TTL) would comb through the population to root out any agents that Stalin tries to leave behind. It also likely means another IJN base near Soviet borders, at the very least an air station which can put bombers closer to Moscow.

Besides, selling real estate is too... capitalistic. Starving your peasants is the TRUE path to communism.

 

[East44]

That would be one of those matters of national pride- with losing so much territory already, the last thing Stalin wants is to lose even more, and he distrusts Japan more than any other ally. It is all but certain that the tokko (pretty much exclusively devoted to rooting out Communists TTL) would comb through the population to root out any agents that Stalin tries to leave behind. It also likely means another IJN base near Soviet borders, at the very least an air station which can put bombers closer to Moscow.

Yeah do the Soviets and Japanese actually consider each other allies or are they just well were fighting the same guys and both allied to Britain and the US so we dont fight each other?
Hey was there ever a Japanese Communist party that had any political influence?

 

[Jaenera Targaryen]

Yeah do the Soviets and Japanese actually consider each other allies or are they just well were fighting the same guys and both allied to Britain and the US so we dont fight each other?

Their opinions on the Soviets are probably the same as Britain's, i.e. the Nazis are worse, but only just. I wouldn't be surprised too if sooner or later, Prince Konoe and Churchill start sharing private concerns about FDR's closeness with Stalin, his sympathy for the hard-left, and the large number of leftists in his cabinet.

Hey was there ever a Japanese Communist party that had any political influence?

None; even IOTL, the Japanese Communist Party had to jump through a lot of hoops to be allowed to run for election, chief among them formal disavowal of revolution, and then a closely-watched disarmament of their party's militant wing.

 

[Spartan-G257]

Their opinions on the Soviets are probably the same as Britain's, i.e. the Nazis are worse, but only just. I wouldn't be surprised too if sooner or later, Prince Konoe and Churchill start sharing private concerns about FDR's closeness with Stalin, his sympathy for the hard-left, and the large number of leftists in his cabinet.

That would probably be the start of the split.
In fact it would probably start soon at that.

First it would just be Prince Konoe and Churchill, not long after that it would possibly include France maybe even Italy (though only because they're a European empire, and even then probably not) by which point you'd probably have a few other nations including Norway.

At which point you have a full on conference between Empires and kingdoms.

The colonial empires know for a fact that the USA won't suffer them to exist for very long.
And without Japan going full crazy ittl there is a major ability to survive.
But only if they don't allow the USA to dictate how they act to them.

 

[Jaenera Targaryen]

FDR isn't immortal, though. And Wallace's open support and praise for the Soviet Union is heavy baggage for any presidential ambitions he might have. Southern Conservatives and pro-business Republicans are going to be concerned, to say the least. Truman or Dewey are more likely candidates to succeed FDR, and neither of them will share his pro-Soviet sympathies.

 

[Spartan-G257]

FDR isn't immortal, though. And Wallace's open support and praise for the Soviet Union is heavy baggage for any presidential ambitions he might have. Southern Conservatives and pro-business Republicans are going to be concerned, to say the least. Truman or Dewey are more likely candidates to succeed FDR, and neither of them will share his pro-Soviet sympathies.

Doesn't mean the rest of the allies won't be incredibly worried about it.

Besides it's just one way to start the split.
Add to that, does anyone want to see a post war scene?
We've had a bit of stage setting and I love the world war 2 stage of the story.
But I'd love to see some of the propaganda from later.
And some of the politics as well.

 

[WaterproofPotatoes]

Ahh, nothing like tons of prep work for re-opening, I can just sleep when I'm dead!

Yeah do the Soviets and Japanese actually consider each other allies or are they just well were fighting the same guys and both allied to Britain and the US so we dont fight each other?

The latter is the case. Neither really want a fight with each other, even though Japan considers the USSR a major geostrategic rival. Communism is the enemy of traditional Japanese values, Bushido and capitalism, and the USSR is regarded with intense suspicion. Japan and Poland (and now the Polish Government in Exile) also share intelligence about the USSR with each other. Japan has even manufactured a small amount of Arisaka Type 38 Carbines for Polish forces, known to them as the Karabinek Japonski wz. 05, with ammunition produced in Britain.

That would probably be the start of the split.
In fact it would probably start soon at that.

First it would just be Prince Konoe and Churchill, not long after that it would possibly include France maybe even Italy (though only because they're a European empire, and even then probably not) by which point you'd probably have a few other nations including Norway.

At which point you have a full on conference between Empires and kingdoms.

The colonial empires know for a fact that the USA won't suffer them to exist for very long.
And without Japan going full crazy ittl there is a major ability to survive.
But only if they don't allow the USA to dictate how they act to them.

Well observed! Konoe and Churchill can't stand Stalin, and the two of them tend to strengthen each other's positions against Uncle Joe. Reynaud is more sympathetic to Stalin, not out of any real affinity for Stalin, but simply to bring Germany to her knees as soon as possible.

 

[WaterproofPotatoes]

While I work on the next update...

There was actually a lot of commemorative memorabilia for the OTL Anglo-Japanese Alliance. Perhaps some may carry over or be re-issued TTL

 

[TwoRivers]

I'd never seen these! Although the UK appears to have developed a posture problem in that second image...

 

[WaterproofPotatoes]

Excerpts from "Growing Pains: The Development of Showa Democracy" I. Miyabi, Kondasha, Tokyo, 1994.


THE continuing trial of Captain Koji Yoshioka and Lieutenant Shinichi Miyabara began to put increasing strain on the top echelons of the Japanese military.

Field Marshal Hisaichi Terauchi was vocal in his support for the accused, to the point that then-General Tomoyuki Yamashita would state in his memoirs:

"That Terauchi... a good general, but nowhere near as good as he thinks he is. How good they have it in the East, where he has time to play shogi and play politics; showing off his fancy uniforms and eating good food. Neither I, nor (General) Arthur (Percival) have slept in a real bed for months... we are too busy fighting a war to have the luxury of worrying about such things! He would do well to be more like Hata and keep up appearances quietly, but everyone knows that the son does not want to live life in the shadows of his father".

The Emperor himself weighed in on matters, although indirectly.

During a terse meeting with the Chief of Army General Staff, Field Marshal Prince Morimasa Nashimoto, his staff officer General Hideki Tojo, and Chief of Naval Staff, Admiral of the Fleet Osami Nagano, Emperor Hirohito spoke of his disappointment with the Army's handling of recent matters.

Wearing the uniform of the Grand Marshal of the Imperial Japanese Army, the Emperor reprimanded Prince Nashimoto for the IJA's slow pace in preparations for an assault on Wuhan, and was still upset at how poorly the IJA had performed at the First Battle of Xuzhou. The recent scandal in Manchuria had only soured the Emperor further, and he had no further willingness to hide his disappointment. Prince Nashimoto avoided the worst of the brunt of the Emperor's criticism; he was asked only to ensure that :

"Recent scandals are to be brought to a swift and satisfactory conclusion, with no further damage to the reputation of Japan and her Army. I trust that you will make this happen. It ends now."

General Tojo, however, felt the full force of the Emperor's anger. Admiral of the Fleet Nagano recounts:

"I had never seen His Majesty so angry before. His patience was exhausted, and he berated Tojo without mercy.

When Tojo spoke up at one point to say that Miyabara and Yoshioka should not have special treatment. His Majesty said 'Is that so? At last, the Hero of Xuzhou speaks! How interesting that he should be so knowledgeable about the matters affecting soldiers' wives, when he has made so many of them widows, and for what!'

Tojo then foolishly tried to defend himself, and said his men's lives were not wasted in the bloody, repeated assaults he ordered (Lieutenant General Ren'ya) Mutaguchi to make. These assaults were captured in grisly photographs of our dead soldiers, bodies piled on top of each other, after they were sent to their deaths, ordered to attack dug-in tanks with only light weapons.

This was too much for His Majesty, who berated Tojo further: 'Men's lives' His Majesty, now shouted, His face red with anger ' are in fact wasted even if they have hearts of lions, when they are led by men with brains of sheep!'

I was surprised by the ferocity His Majesty exhibited, but it was certainly merited given Tojo's failures. I could only look on, and then His Majesty looked at me, and said 'And what do you have to say for yourself, Admiral Nagano?' I could only respond with 'Nothing, Your Heavenly Majesty, except that I and the Navy place full and complete trust in Your considered judgement. ' The Emperor then turned to Tojo and said 'That should be a lesson to you. Know when saying nothing says the most about you and your judgement. You are dismissed, General Tojo.'

It was a calculated humiliation. The meeting was not over, and Tojo was asked to leave. The Emperor had never been favourably disposed to Tojo since Tojo had requested the use of special munitions* in the assault on Xuzhou, but this was the final straw"

*"Special munitions" was the term for poison gas. Thrice Tojo requested their use in the First Battle of Xuzhou, and he was thrice refused. Using special munitions required the unanimous permission of the Chief of General Staff, the War Minister, and the Emperor himself. The Emperor insisted that the use of special munitions would only be permitted if the enemy was invading the Home Islands, and solely for defensive operations. Army Minister Prince Kotohito Kan'in gave his refusal without a reason. Prince Nashimoto was the most vocal in his refusal. He said "(Gas is) a coward's weapon... an assault that requires the use of gas to be successful is not an assault that should be undertaken at all. To disperse gas in offensive operations when no other combatants, not even the despicable Fascists and Communists have, will dishonour Japan and besmirch the Army's reputation. Shame on you for even considering it!"

Within days, the apparent solution to the matter had been reached.

The Army prosecution service withdrew the charge of assault against a civilian. The beating was deemed to be an act of self-defence, as Kishi had thrown a drink in the officers' faces before blows were exchanged. They were convicted, however, on the charge of unlawful appropriation of civilian property, but the sentence was to be restitution paid to the club owner, and all records of the charge would be expunged if either officer were promoted. Field Marshal Count Terauchi paid off the restitution for Yoshioka and Miyabara, and both were promoted only weeks after. Captain Miyabara thereafter headed his research section, and Major Yoshioka was transferred to the prestigious Imperial Guards Artillery Regiment. Keiko Miyabara also applied for, and was granted a lieutenant's commission in the IJA Women's Auxiliary, serving in recruitment.

However, there remained the matter of the criminal trial of Nobusuke Kishi for his assault against Keiko Miyabara.

 

[Eternity]

++Snip++

"Recent scandals are to be brought to a swift and satisfactory conclusion, with no further damage to the reputation of Japan and her Army. I trust that you will make this happen. It ends now."

++Snip++

When the Emperor says it's over, IT IS OVER! lol

 

[Bookmark1995]

What is driving the Emperor TTL to be more self-aware and less tolerant of his army's excesses.

 

[Yatta]

Probably less need to worry about the army trying for a coup as he would have IOTL.

 

[WaterproofPotatoes]

What is driving the Emperor TTL to be more self-aware and less tolerant of his army's excesses.

The biggest driver is the failed 1932 assassination attempt of Prime Minister Inukai. Because the Navy is more powerful, influential, and moderate, he had less to fear from the Army in the first place, but this time he has made sure that the top positions are occupied by loyalists and almost either always Imperial or Peerage Princes to ensure their continued loyalty. They are thus further emboldened to clamp down on plotters, and that in turn dispels the notion that "loyal insubordination" is acceptable. The Emperor himself loudly condemned the plotters.

Sadao Araki has been placed under house arrest rather than made Minister of Education, sparing the minds of students and cadets as well.

 

[Bookmark1995]

The biggest driver is the failed 1932 assassination attempt of Prime Minister Inukai. Because the Navy is more powerful, influential, and moderate, he had less to fear from the Army in the first place, but this time he has made sure that the top positions are occupied by loyalists and almost either always Imperial or Peerage Princes to ensure their continued loyalty. They are thus further emboldened to clamp down on plotters, and that in turn dispels the notion that "loyal insubordination" is acceptable. The Emperor himself loudly condemned the plotters.

Sadao Araki has been placed under house arrest rather than made Minister of Education, sparing the minds of students and cadets as well.

But what was the OTL Emperor's responsibility for World War II? Was he an active collaborator, or was he puppet who gave his divine stamp of approval (i.e. Puyi)?

 

[WaterproofPotatoes]

But what was the OTL Emperor's responsibility for World War II? Was he an active collaborator, or was he puppet who gave his divine stamp of approval (i.e. Puyi)?

OTL? That's a matter of historical debate. He certainly did sign orders for controversial (to say the least) actions, on the other hand, his writings often express deep regret for the war and a desire for peace. I am no apologist for OTL Imperial Japan.

TTL he is definitely closer to the former. The Emperor ultimately approved the invasion of China based on the Hyuga Incident, but wants a swift conclusion after the Chinese Nationalists are either sufficiently punished and sue for terms, or are replaced by the Unionists. His Imperial Majesty also wants to see the Nazis defeated, and is eager to assist the Western Allies in doing so, to increase Japan's prestige, and return to peacetime order and trade.