Not really that different than OTL. Everyone must be ready to fight the last war, as it were - it's just that there won't be the dramatic naval reveal that will totally obsolete them all at once.
The Sun, The Stars and The Sickle: Alt-WWII and a Tripolar Postwar World
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Not really that different than OTL. Everyone must be ready to fight the last war, as it were - it's just that there won't be the dramatic naval reveal that will totally obsolete them all at once.
Yatta
Donor
I-201 class is showing up 3 years earlier. I-400s too.
Hmm. Aircraft carrier submarine and unmanned flying bombs? Will I-400 be the world's first cruise missile submarine?
If the flying bombs are the size of Regulus, than the subs can carry ≈9-10 missiles.
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Indeed, along with the J2M and Kawanishi N1K (carrier-capable TTL). The newly-ordered Shokakus and Taihos will have larger elevators as well, so the Aichi B7A can be developed. Currently, the big focus is on replacing the slow and vulnerable D3A with the faster Yokosuka D4Y, built around a licence-built Merlin engine.
Access to high-octane aviation gasoline is much appreciated as well.
This order simply marks the beginning of the development for the projects, completion is still 2-3 years away. An interesting idea, but I don't want to spoil too much
Skagerrak Rematch
Excerpts from "The Myth of the Turning Point". J. Weisberg, F.N. Doubleday, 1996
THE naval tensions that were building in the North Sea in the early years of the Second World War finally came to a head in September, 1941.
The German advance was relentless. Army Group A's forces had now surrounded Leningrad, and taken Murmansk, a warm-water port and a point through which the Soviet Union could be supplied by the Allies. German progress was aided by brilliantly-coordinated assaults against Soviet armour. For his ability to avoid entrapment, and discover pockets of resistance, Erwin Rommel earned the sobriquet "The Arctic Fox" from this campaign.
Within the Kriegsmarine, it was well-known that their forces could never match the Royal Navy's on the whole. However, the Royal Navy's commitments were global rather than localized to the North Sea. If a breakout were to be made, it would have to be with a force strong enough to overwhelm the force the Royal Navy would respond with. Furthermore, if it could reach Murmansk, it could harass Allied convoys to Arkhangelsk and have a base from which it could be resupplied.
In the North Sea, U-Boats would also be able to aid a breakout attempt or simply to prevent Royal Navy vessels from pursuing an aborted breakout attempt.
The Kriegsmarine assembled a powerful force, destined to break out of the North Sea and make for Murmansk. The force comprised the battleship Bismarck, the small battleship Scharnhorst, the heavy cruisers Prinz Eugen and Seydlitz, the light cruiser Leipzig, and several destroyers and torpedo boats. The battleship Tirpitz and pocket battleships Luetzow and Admiral Scheer would remain in the North Sea, guarding Germany's northern shore.
Under command of Admiral Guenther Luetjens, the force departed Kiel on September 22nd, 1941.
News of the departure of this force was relayed to the Royal Navy by Norwegian intelligence, and the Royal Navy hastily assembled a force to respond.
Force K, under the command of Admiral John Tovey comprised the King George V class fast battleship Lion, the Triumph class battleship Swiftsure, the Nelson class battlecruiser Anson, the carrier Victorious, the light cruisers Liverpool, Edinburgh and Jamaica [AN: Completed and commissioned earlier than OTL], and twelve destroyers. Force K made for the Skagerrak at 28 knots, the top speed of Swiftsure.
The two mighty forces clashed in the North Sea, west of Kristjansand on the afternoon of the 23rd, and to the distress of the Royal Navy, it was a fight that played into German hands.
The weather was bad, and the seas choppy, which made it difficult for Victorious' aircraft to find the German fleet. The two forces closed in range, which greatly favoured Bismarck's 16.5" guns, the largest in the world. These guns were optimized for a relatively flat trajectory, as was Bismarck's distributed armour scheme. The British fleet, on paper, had several advantages- three capital ships each armed with 16" guns, versus two, one of which was armed with 8x 16.5" and the other 9x 11". The British ships, with the exception of Swiftsure, were faster- Anson could easily make 32.5 knots, or over 33 when forced, and Lion was capable of 30.5kn rated or 32 forced. Bismarck could barely make her rated 29.5 kn in service, and the repaired Scharnhorst was never the same ship she was before her encounter with Anson's sister Rodney- she could only make 30 knots, and tended to heel to port. Lion had an advantage over the other two British capital ships- her Mark III guns fired a heavier projectile at a lower velocity, and were better optimized for long range plunging fire, similar to the proven 15" Mk. I, whereas Anson and Swiftsure had the 16" Mk. I, which fired a lighter projectile at higher velocity and flatter trajectory.
The poor weather led the two forces to tangle closer and closer. Lion straddled Prinz Eugen, believing her to be Bismarck. Swiftsure managed to engage Bismarck, and straddled, but took a 16.5" hit ahead of her A turret, and took on water. Swiftsure's armour scheme provided only 80% buoyancy, which caused her to pitch forward at the bows. The British ships began to put distance between themselves and the German ships- avoiding losses was deemed to be the most critical objective. Swiftsure took another 16.5" hit aft of the first, and another hit of undetermined calibre aft of her superstructure, which started a fire. The first hit was particularly worrying as it necessitated the flooding of her magazines, and with her all-forward armament, this meant that she could no longer use he main guns.
Leaking badly, and listing to starboard, the decision was made by Captain Godfrey Russell to withdraw from the fight, lay down smoke and make for the closest friendly port, which was Kristjansand. Escorted by the destroyers Matabele and Somali, she could only make 11 knots, although the leaks were slowed. However, this slow journey made her highly vulnerable to further attacks from German light units. A torpedo attack, lead by German destroyers launched a spread- three torpedoes hit, and two detonated abreast her superstructure. In addition to the water she had taken on in the firefighting efforts, these last hits sealed Swiftsure's fate. She sank slowly over the next two hours. Of her crew of approximately 1 400, all but 263 were taken off with no more than minor injuries. She sank approximately 80 nautical miles southwest of Kristjansand.
The remaining British ships were only able to inflict minor damage on the German fleet before dispersing to aid the rescue of Swiftsure's crew- Scharnhorst was relatively unscathed, Prinz Eugen suffered some 6" hits from the British light cruisers, and Bismarck had taken a non-critical 16" hit from Anson.
There was outrage in the Admiralty and press when news reached Britain.
Churchill demanded that Bismarck should be found and sunk, whatever the cost.
THE naval tensions that were building in the North Sea in the early years of the Second World War finally came to a head in September, 1941.
The German advance was relentless. Army Group A's forces had now surrounded Leningrad, and taken Murmansk, a warm-water port and a point through which the Soviet Union could be supplied by the Allies. German progress was aided by brilliantly-coordinated assaults against Soviet armour. For his ability to avoid entrapment, and discover pockets of resistance, Erwin Rommel earned the sobriquet "The Arctic Fox" from this campaign.
Within the Kriegsmarine, it was well-known that their forces could never match the Royal Navy's on the whole. However, the Royal Navy's commitments were global rather than localized to the North Sea. If a breakout were to be made, it would have to be with a force strong enough to overwhelm the force the Royal Navy would respond with. Furthermore, if it could reach Murmansk, it could harass Allied convoys to Arkhangelsk and have a base from which it could be resupplied.
In the North Sea, U-Boats would also be able to aid a breakout attempt or simply to prevent Royal Navy vessels from pursuing an aborted breakout attempt.
The Kriegsmarine assembled a powerful force, destined to break out of the North Sea and make for Murmansk. The force comprised the battleship Bismarck, the small battleship Scharnhorst, the heavy cruisers Prinz Eugen and Seydlitz, the light cruiser Leipzig, and several destroyers and torpedo boats. The battleship Tirpitz and pocket battleships Luetzow and Admiral Scheer would remain in the North Sea, guarding Germany's northern shore.
Under command of Admiral Guenther Luetjens, the force departed Kiel on September 22nd, 1941.
News of the departure of this force was relayed to the Royal Navy by Norwegian intelligence, and the Royal Navy hastily assembled a force to respond.
Force K, under the command of Admiral John Tovey comprised the King George V class fast battleship Lion, the Triumph class battleship Swiftsure, the Nelson class battlecruiser Anson, the carrier Victorious, the light cruisers Liverpool, Edinburgh and Jamaica [AN: Completed and commissioned earlier than OTL], and twelve destroyers. Force K made for the Skagerrak at 28 knots, the top speed of Swiftsure.
The two mighty forces clashed in the North Sea, west of Kristjansand on the afternoon of the 23rd, and to the distress of the Royal Navy, it was a fight that played into German hands.
The weather was bad, and the seas choppy, which made it difficult for Victorious' aircraft to find the German fleet. The two forces closed in range, which greatly favoured Bismarck's 16.5" guns, the largest in the world. These guns were optimized for a relatively flat trajectory, as was Bismarck's distributed armour scheme. The British fleet, on paper, had several advantages- three capital ships each armed with 16" guns, versus two, one of which was armed with 8x 16.5" and the other 9x 11". The British ships, with the exception of Swiftsure, were faster- Anson could easily make 32.5 knots, or over 33 when forced, and Lion was capable of 30.5kn rated or 32 forced. Bismarck could barely make her rated 29.5 kn in service, and the repaired Scharnhorst was never the same ship she was before her encounter with Anson's sister Rodney- she could only make 30 knots, and tended to heel to port. Lion had an advantage over the other two British capital ships- her Mark III guns fired a heavier projectile at a lower velocity, and were better optimized for long range plunging fire, similar to the proven 15" Mk. I, whereas Anson and Swiftsure had the 16" Mk. I, which fired a lighter projectile at higher velocity and flatter trajectory.
The poor weather led the two forces to tangle closer and closer. Lion straddled Prinz Eugen, believing her to be Bismarck. Swiftsure managed to engage Bismarck, and straddled, but took a 16.5" hit ahead of her A turret, and took on water. Swiftsure's armour scheme provided only 80% buoyancy, which caused her to pitch forward at the bows. The British ships began to put distance between themselves and the German ships- avoiding losses was deemed to be the most critical objective. Swiftsure took another 16.5" hit aft of the first, and another hit of undetermined calibre aft of her superstructure, which started a fire. The first hit was particularly worrying as it necessitated the flooding of her magazines, and with her all-forward armament, this meant that she could no longer use he main guns.
Leaking badly, and listing to starboard, the decision was made by Captain Godfrey Russell to withdraw from the fight, lay down smoke and make for the closest friendly port, which was Kristjansand. Escorted by the destroyers Matabele and Somali, she could only make 11 knots, although the leaks were slowed. However, this slow journey made her highly vulnerable to further attacks from German light units. A torpedo attack, lead by German destroyers launched a spread- three torpedoes hit, and two detonated abreast her superstructure. In addition to the water she had taken on in the firefighting efforts, these last hits sealed Swiftsure's fate. She sank slowly over the next two hours. Of her crew of approximately 1 400, all but 263 were taken off with no more than minor injuries. She sank approximately 80 nautical miles southwest of Kristjansand.
The remaining British ships were only able to inflict minor damage on the German fleet before dispersing to aid the rescue of Swiftsure's crew- Scharnhorst was relatively unscathed, Prinz Eugen suffered some 6" hits from the British light cruisers, and Bismarck had taken a non-critical 16" hit from Anson.
There was outrage in the Admiralty and press when news reached Britain.
Churchill demanded that Bismarck should be found and sunk, whatever the cost.
Now the public recriminations begin of how a numerically superior fleet manages to come out of this so poorly when they have the initiative.
It's not like in the case of the Hood - this is far more heavily weighted against the Germans... even if it's not technically the Bismarck's fault - it's more the result of the German destroyers. Though Zink die Zestörer doesn't quite have the same ring to it...
It's not like in the case of the Hood - this is far more heavily weighted against the Germans... even if it's not technically the Bismarck's fault - it's more the result of the German destroyers. Though Zink die Zestörer doesn't quite have the same ring to it...
I am going to ask something, about the Bismarck.
something I will probably come to regret as I do like this thread...
Is this the same Design Bureau that Designed the Bismarck of our timeline?
'Cause if so I'm going to direct you to a website about the German Marineamt of the time, something that may make you rethink the Design philosophy behind the German ships, and then I'm going to add another link to a thread on SB for none other than I can and it's a decent thread which directed me to the website, (it's Ironic I was reading about this before I read the first few lines of the chapter)
http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-044.php
https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/bismarck-why-such-an-obsolete-design.156208/
something I will probably come to regret as I do like this thread...
Is this the same Design Bureau that Designed the Bismarck of our timeline?
'Cause if so I'm going to direct you to a website about the German Marineamt of the time, something that may make you rethink the Design philosophy behind the German ships, and then I'm going to add another link to a thread on SB for none other than I can and it's a decent thread which directed me to the website, (it's Ironic I was reading about this before I read the first few lines of the chapter)
http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-044.php
https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/bismarck-why-such-an-obsolete-design.156208/
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Very good questions! This is a similar MA that designed the Bismarck. They must, however, respond to slighy different conditions, although their ships are all still prototypes.
The Bismarck class still utilizes an older armour scheme and single-purpose secondaries. The larger gun calibre is obtained with relative simplicity if not ease, as the 16"/ 16.5" is directly based off 15" designs. The big difference is the propulsion, and the mixed powerplant allows the KM to save on reduction gears and boilers.
EDIT: Basically, I tried to design TTL's Bismarck as if it were OTL's design bureau operating in these different conditions.
The Bismarck class still utilizes an older armour scheme and single-purpose secondaries. The larger gun calibre is obtained with relative simplicity if not ease, as the 16"/ 16.5" is directly based off 15" designs. The big difference is the propulsion, and the mixed powerplant allows the KM to save on reduction gears and boilers.
EDIT: Basically, I tried to design TTL's Bismarck as if it were OTL's design bureau operating in these different conditions.
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Thank you! I really enjoy writing it, and to be in such esteemed company is a bonus!
The D4Y is the standard dive bomber now, and the transition to the B6N is in progress, as the development of the Nakajima Mamori engine proved problematic, but the difficulties were eventually ironed out. The lessons learned in the development of the Mamori ("Protection") will likely influence Project Homare ("Honour"), Nakajima's upcoming family of large radial engines
Right now, the closest Japanese fast air fleet is by the Gulf of Aden, providing distant cover for oil convoys. However, Prince Chichibu (the ambassador to Britain and noted Anglophile) is just a phone call away, and it just so happens that Admirals Yamamoto and Fraser are already familiar with one another...
Hope everybody had/is having some awesome New Year celebrations!
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Now, I should mention that while this scenario may seem similar to OTL's "Golden BB" incident with Hood, there are some key differences. It's still typically bad RN luck, but not quite as awful as OTL.
Swiftsure is an older ship than Bismarck, having been commissioned in 1926. She is also a smaller one, displacing some 40 000 tons to Bismarck's 58 000. Nevertheless, she mounts 3x3 16" guns, all forward, to Bismarck's 4x2 (A-B + C-D) 16.5" guns.
The Triumph class, of which Swiftsure is the second ship, are inherently compromise designs. They have their origins in the early 1920s as smaller, lighter, cheaper counterparts to the mighty modified G3 Nelson class ships. Unlike the OTL R-class, the Triumphs were explicitly designed not to be second-class ships at the outset.
The Triumphs measure 740' in length to the Nelsons' 886', and are some 8000 tons lighter. They have much simpler machinery, (developing about half the horsepower of the Nelsons and providing a top speed of 28.25 kn over the latter's 32.5 kn) and a significant transom on their sterns to allow higher speeds from their stubbier hull forms, whereas the Nelsons have a small transom. They utilize 4 shafts for reliability, rather than reducing to two. They are also equipped with single rudders. This also hampers the effort to rescue the stricken Swiftsure. Along with her block superstructure, which acts as something of a wind-catcher, the large transom makes her more difficult to handle at low speeds, especially in following swells, and the single rudder struggles to keep her on course.
Under normal conditions this wouldn't be as much of an issue, but Swiftsure has been holed several times, and sitting low due to taking on water from firefighting efforts. This, combined with the torpedo strikes close to where she had already been stricken with shellfire, all worked together against her.
---
Now, I should mention that while this scenario may seem similar to OTL's "Golden BB" incident with Hood, there are some key differences. It's still typically bad RN luck, but not quite as awful as OTL.
Swiftsure is an older ship than Bismarck, having been commissioned in 1926. She is also a smaller one, displacing some 40 000 tons to Bismarck's 58 000. Nevertheless, she mounts 3x3 16" guns, all forward, to Bismarck's 4x2 (A-B + C-D) 16.5" guns.
The Triumph class, of which Swiftsure is the second ship, are inherently compromise designs. They have their origins in the early 1920s as smaller, lighter, cheaper counterparts to the mighty modified G3 Nelson class ships. Unlike the OTL R-class, the Triumphs were explicitly designed not to be second-class ships at the outset.
The Triumphs measure 740' in length to the Nelsons' 886', and are some 8000 tons lighter. They have much simpler machinery, (developing about half the horsepower of the Nelsons and providing a top speed of 28.25 kn over the latter's 32.5 kn) and a significant transom on their sterns to allow higher speeds from their stubbier hull forms, whereas the Nelsons have a small transom. They utilize 4 shafts for reliability, rather than reducing to two. They are also equipped with single rudders. This also hampers the effort to rescue the stricken Swiftsure. Along with her block superstructure, which acts as something of a wind-catcher, the large transom makes her more difficult to handle at low speeds, especially in following swells, and the single rudder struggles to keep her on course.
Under normal conditions this wouldn't be as much of an issue, but Swiftsure has been holed several times, and sitting low due to taking on water from firefighting efforts. This, combined with the torpedo strikes close to where she had already been stricken with shellfire, all worked together against her.
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Swiftsure, as luck would have it, was supposed to go in for a refit that would have added nearly 4000 tons, but that refit was postponed due to the outbreak of the war.
The four Nelsons weighed in at 48 000t standard, thus when averaged with the Triumphs, the 44 000t limit for new battleships from 1937 onward and as a limit to which old ships could be improved up to was settled on at the 1927 Naval Conference.
TTL, there is a push to standardize on 7.7 x 58 Arisaka in both the IJN and IJA to simplify logistics. A more involved Imperial Palace has insisted on it as well, noting that in France and Britain, such lack of commonality does not exist. However, all 3 currently exist in service as the Type 99 Rifle hasn't replaced all older models yet.
Compared to OTL, the major differences are the addition of the Type 99 Heavy Machine Gun, a water-cooled, belt-fed Vickers design made under licence, and the Army is also developing a mount for the Ho-104 aircraft machine gun- later accepted as the Type 3 Automatic Cannon, as it can fire explosive 12.7 x 81mm ammunition.
Some form of AT weapon, such as the PIAT or Bazooka will be highly sought after as well.
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