Why am I afraid this heir will turn out like Emperor Detritus?
-- Cvltvre Made Stupid, Tom Weller
The Spanish Heir (What if Carlos II had a son?)
- Thread starter Archduke
- Start date
For that, he'd need to marry the queen regnant of a nearby kingdom which is much richer than his own.
I meant in terms of competence, commanding respect, ability, charisma and stuff.
Honestly after seeing so many threads asking about what would happen if the Habsburgs were still on the Spanish throne or if Carlos II had children, it's fun to see a story about that.
Let's hope they are. The proud eagle must regain it's streght to live up to it's motto!
1.2: The Spanish Succession
II: The Spanish Succession
The Spanish empire in Europe and its losses over the 17th century
The Spanish empire in Europe and its losses over the 17th century
When news of Marie Louise's pregnancy was first announced, many could hardly believe it. Although the first three years of Marie Louise's marriage to King Carlos II of Spain had been sprinkled with rumors of pregnancy, those rumors had mainly been the wishful thinking of Spanish courtiers. The reason why these courtiers and indeed the whole of Spain wished Marie Louise the best of luck in producing a child was that Carlos II was just one of two remaining Spanish Habsburgs in 1679. The only other one was Maria Teresa, the wife of Louis XIV. With Carlos II having no children, natural or otherwise, and Maria Teresa having renounced her rights to the Spanish succession upon marriage, there was no apparent heir to the crown of Spain and its many possessions. Instead of a clear and obvious succession, all Spain had was a collection of claimants, none of whom were looked upon favorably by the Spaniards. The primary claimants were the son of Louis XIV and Marie Teresa, as the nephew of Carlos II, and the son of Emperor Leopold of the Holy Roman Empire, as the scion of the junior line of the House of Habsburg. Of course, other claimants existed such as Emperor Leopold's daughter, Maria Antonia, who was a niece of Carlos II, and Victor Amadeus II of Savoy, who was a descendant of King Felipe II of Spain. The former had been forced by her father to repeatedly renounce all claims to the Spanish succession in favor of her father and later brother. The latter was so far back in proximity and so bereft of power that no one took his claim seriously. For the Spanish, the most frightening aspect of the inevitable demise of the Spanish Habsburg line was not who would inherit, but what would happen when someone did inherit the Spanish crown. Few in Europe believed that the Bourbons and Austrian Habsburgs could find a peaceful arrangement on whose right was superior in the Spanish succession. Nor did many believe that one could tolerate the other being proclaimed heir to Spain by Spain itself. Thus, many expected that upon the death of the sickly Carlos II that Spain would become the host of a vicious war. A war that the Spaniards feared would see their empire torn asunder as France, Austria, and every other major power in Europe grabbed its own piece of Spain. This was the future that many Spaniards envisaged and this was the gloom that overhung the nation for the first years of Marie Louise and Carlos II's marriage.
In January 1683, when rumors of pregnancy arose, many Spaniards cherished the thought and praised the Queen. But internally, three years of childless marriage had led many Spaniards to begin to suspect that the union of Marie Louise and Carlos II would not be a fruitful one. However, as the belly of Marie Louise grew those suspicions melted away. The Queen was pregnant, that was an undeniable fact. However, everyone in Spain knew that pregnancy did not guarantee the birth of a healthy child. Thus, hundreds of Spanish priests, doctors, and courtiers dedicated themselves to providing for the well-being of Marie Louise and her swollen belly for the next several months. No amenity was denied to Marie Louise and no chance against her safety and that of the child was hazarded. Everything and anything was done to ensure a healthy birth. Finally, on September 12, 1683, Marie Louise delivered the long-awaited heir to the Spanish empire. The babe was named Luis Carlos after his mother and father. The name he derived from his mother was placed first due to the love Carlos II held for Marie Louise and also as a celebration of Marie Louise's role in saving the Spanish empire.
A few days after the birth, Luis Carlos remained alive and no apparent sickness seized him as it had seized Carlos II, which indicated that the young babe might yet live to inherit the Spanish crown. Although great care would have to be taken to ensure that the boy did not contract any illness or suffer any grave accident until he could reproduce, the Spaniards finally allowed themselves to breathe a sigh of relief. They began to believe that their succession crisis might be solved. Even if some misfortune should occur to Luis Carlos, his birth hinted at the possibility of future children of Marie Louise and Carlos II who could replace Luis Carlos, if necessary. This thought further enlivened the Spaniards who exchanged their somber fears of a bloody partition for the dream of a stable succession and even a Spanish revitalization under a healthy monarch. Luis Carlos was just a few days old and already the Spanish court was determined to heap all its hopes and ambitions on him. While King Jan Sobieski and Charles of Lorraine were the saviours of Vienna, Luis Carlos would be the saviour of Spain.
The reactions to the birth of Luis Carlos in other European courts were mixed. Relatively few courts shared the same elation of Spain at the idea of the Spanish heir. Only really in Italy was there a healthy amount of celebration. There, the Italians welcomed the idea of a stable and undisputed Spanish succession that they hoped would keep war out of Italy. The Papacy was particularly happy as it feared that an Austrian succession would mean the return of Holy Roman Empire politics to Italy. A French succession would have been no better as it would have brought a new and abhorrent French domination. Although Spanish superiority in Italy was not perfect, the Italians had grown accustomed to it and were appreciative of its security. In the courts of Portugal, England, the Dutch Republic, and Germany, rulers were thankful to avoid another crisis but unsure of whether this half-French, half-Spanish heir would ultimately be in their interests or not. From the Baltic Courts, Carlos II and Marie Louise received congratulations but little more.
Where the reactions to Luis Carlos were negative and veered toward hostile were at Versailles and the Hofburg. At these palaces, the rival Bourbon and Austrian Habsburg claimants to the Spanish inheritance suddenly found themselves displaced, at least temporarily and possibly permanently. No longer would France and Austria argue over who might succeed to the Spanish crown. The answer was neither of them. This meant that there was no longer any dispute over whether a Frenchman or an Austrian would inherit Flanders or Milan or Aragon. All of that, all of those lands, were the indisputable inheritance of one Luis Carlos. Even if the Spanish court had never recognized either the Bourbons or the Austrian Habsburgs as heirs, Louis XIV and Emperor Leopold could not help but feel as if they had lost the Spanish inheritance and been deprived of Spain's empire.
This sense of loss is why the first rumors of Luis Carlos's illegitimacy arose in the courts of France and Austria. Whispers about the sickly nature of Carlos II and about his deformities, especially below the waist escalated. Meanwhile, talk spread about the many men who had been attending Marie Louise, with some priests even accused of being the true father of Luis Carlos. Whatever the truth of these rumors, in Spain, they were readily dismissed by an empire eager to preserve its integrity and avoid falling into the hands of any foreign power. Thus, while rumors and accusations about Marie Louise's fidelity might have abounded in foreign courts, they found no fertile ground in Spain. Instead, before September had even ended, Luis Carlos was anointed Princ of Asturias, heir to the Spanish empire.
The rush to make Luis Carlos Prince of Asturias raised even more questions from the French and Austrians. Quickly, they discovered that although the infant had avoided the diseases that had wrecked Carlos II shortly after birth, the infant was not the robust and healthy baby that the Spanish had made him out to be. Instead, he was underweight and had trouble sleeping and feeding. Word of these health issues led the French and Austrians to conclude that the baby would not last long. Soon enough the consequences of his difficult birth and heritage would remove him from the world and reopen the question of the Spanish Succession. This expectation carried the French and Austrians to October. But when on October 12, the Spaniards celebrated the first month of the child's life, the hopes of the French and Austrians once more began to wane. Luis Carlos seemed as if he would defy France and Austria's hopes just as Carlos II had by living. Spain had an heir and the French and Austrians were going to have to accept that.
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Long live Luis Carlos! Well, now that the succession is saved, the only thing left for the French and Austrians to do is to fight for the mind of Luis Carlos.
If that's the case, let's hope the Austrians win. They're Habsburgs, Proud Eagles that have each others backs upon the arroganr french machinations!
Typo, my mistake. Has been corrected. But yeah to answer any lingering question, Luis Carlos is recognized by the Spanish Cortes as the official and legitimate heir to the Spanish throne. Although France and Austria might make suggestions otherwise, they cant actually delegitimize Luis Carlos.
They definitely cannot do it, the only thing they can do now is to wait and try to gain influence over Luis Carlos. In this position, I don't see the French gaining much while the Austrian on the other hand may in the future get some concessions like trading directly with the Spanish American colonies after the Spanish apply new reforms.
Exactly. The Spanish Will be the most weary of the french, the Austria's on the other hand are family, kin. Their alliance dates back centuries earlier since the marriage of Joanna the Mád and Philip the Handsome
unprincipled peter
Donor
France and Austria can't directly challenge Louis Carlos' legitimacy. But they can fund/sow discontent with groups who see discord as more profitable than peace. France and Austria will both try to swing the court in their favor/influence Louis Carlos faction. France has an advantage here, as his mother is French. The pro French party will have the upper hand. Austria will fund the pro Austrian opposition party. This is the game already being played OTL. The legitimacy issue isn't going away just because the court decrees it.
France and Austria aren't going to simply say "nope, LC is a bastard" and send in troops to install an alternative. An outside chance France might, but they know they would have no allies in the endeavor. Quite the opposite. Almost literally everyone would unite to stop blatant French power grab. Thus, highly doubtful France would do it. Austria can't do it alone, and would have no allies in trying it.
F and A would use the legitimacy issue to meddle with internal politics. IF there's any question at all about his sire, this is a fact of life. Especially if he looks nothing like a Habsburg. Now, if LC bears any reasonable resemblance, the doubt may be put to rest, and the issue may die down.
France and Austria aren't going to simply say "nope, LC is a bastard" and send in troops to install an alternative. An outside chance France might, but they know they would have no allies in the endeavor. Quite the opposite. Almost literally everyone would unite to stop blatant French power grab. Thus, highly doubtful France would do it. Austria can't do it alone, and would have no allies in trying it.
F and A would use the legitimacy issue to meddle with internal politics. IF there's any question at all about his sire, this is a fact of life. Especially if he looks nothing like a Habsburg. Now, if LC bears any reasonable resemblance, the doubt may be put to rest, and the issue may die down.
A son for Carlos? This changes everything, and I look forward to seeing how the balance of power in Europe changes without a War of Spanish Succession.
But I also want to see how little Luis Carlos grows. I have a funny feeling he's going to grow up fairly spoiled - especially if his father still dies young, when he's still a minor. Sickly kids often do end up spoiled because the people around them feel sorry for them.
But I also want to see how little Luis Carlos grows. I have a funny feeling he's going to grow up fairly spoiled - especially if his father still dies young, when he's still a minor. Sickly kids often do end up spoiled because the people around them feel sorry for them.