Hm, does anyone consider the Lombards a legitimate successor to Rome, or is it pretty much just a self-proclaimed title? The update itself still refers to them as Lombards, but that might just be for our sake.
The Palace has Fallen: A Timeline Without Charlemagne
- Thread starter ArchimedesCircle
- Start date
The Lombards themselves do, obviously, save for some malcontent Roman natives. The Venetians also accept the Lombards as the heir to Rome, which is how they were able to break from the ERE and replace their suzerain with the WRE (though that also has to do with internal politics, similarities in religion and language, and the fact that the Lombard navy keeps Venice in check). Most of the Frankish states as well as Aquitaine use the title WRE to refer to the Lombards' empire, but that's more out of fear and respect of the Lombards' power rather than an acknowledgement of any continuity. Bavaria doesn't recognize them as legitimate successors to the Roman Empire, but that didn't turn out to do a whole lot of good when the imperial borders were used as an excuse to capture Dalmatia. The Lombards at this point are powerful enough that it kind of doesn't matter if you consider them Roman or not, all that matters is what they're willing to do to 'reclaim' their empire. They're a big fish in the small pond that is western Europe, but stay tuned, because in the next update that pond is going to get a whole lot bigger.
I personally don't see why the Lombards are any less a legitimate successor to the WRE than the Yuan were to the Song or the Qing were to the Ming.
Because China has a long tradition of recognizing whoever reunite the country as legitimate, whereas the leadership of the WRE was mostly culturally uniform despite its various up and down, and even the more turbulent transitions were more takeovers than cast down and rebuilding?
China is a concept, not just a title, and that's why it endures.
So what's the status of the relationship between the Pope in Rome and the Pope in Bavaria after the war? Are we getting something like the autonomous Bulgarian Archbishopric with a Patriarchate of Bavaria that's recognized by the Lombards and the Papacy?
I don't think the concept is as enduring as China. The title endured historically, but except for the Byzantine empire, it was mostly just ceremonial titles. And even for the Byzantines, it endured due to continuity, rather than being a force towards recreating the Roman empire.
I wanted to give everyone here the good news: an honest-to-god update will be coming in the next week! I had one ready to go for today actually, but it was written off and on over several months and parts didn't gel as well as I wanted. But here's a preview of things to look forward to:
The northern half of Britain is divided between the Picts, the Scots and the Vikings. Can the Christians come together and vanquish the invaders, or will Odin's children rule the whole North Sea?
Khan Krum the Terrible... or perhaps in this timeline he will be remembered differently?
The Norsemen lock blades with the battle-hardened Syrians of what was once Al-Gharb. Will the Junds fall, or have the pagans finally bit off more than they can chew?
The unlikely survival of Akituniyya is once again questioned. Can the Ziyaduns retain their title of 'least realistic part of the timeline', or will they finally reach their realistic outcome?
Lupo bites the dust. Can Aquitaine finally get a competent ruler?
And what you've all been waiting for since 770:
Giants clash. The Eastern Roman Empire can no longer ignore the barbarian pretenders. For too long have the Lombards been abusing the title of 'emperor', and now Germanic invaders seek to claim Sicily and Pannonia for themselves. Meanwhile, fears in the west run rampant. Thrice have great powers arisen in Italy, and twice have they fallen to outside forces. This new Rome must not be the same fate as its predecessors. Perhaps it is best to strike now, while the Eastern Romans continue to squabble over their icons. Perhaps it is time for A War of Empires.
And as an added bonus, this will be the first update written by an official bachelor of history!
The northern half of Britain is divided between the Picts, the Scots and the Vikings. Can the Christians come together and vanquish the invaders, or will Odin's children rule the whole North Sea?
Khan Krum the Terrible... or perhaps in this timeline he will be remembered differently?
The Norsemen lock blades with the battle-hardened Syrians of what was once Al-Gharb. Will the Junds fall, or have the pagans finally bit off more than they can chew?
The unlikely survival of Akituniyya is once again questioned. Can the Ziyaduns retain their title of 'least realistic part of the timeline', or will they finally reach their realistic outcome?
Lupo bites the dust. Can Aquitaine finally get a competent ruler?
And what you've all been waiting for since 770:
Giants clash. The Eastern Roman Empire can no longer ignore the barbarian pretenders. For too long have the Lombards been abusing the title of 'emperor', and now Germanic invaders seek to claim Sicily and Pannonia for themselves. Meanwhile, fears in the west run rampant. Thrice have great powers arisen in Italy, and twice have they fallen to outside forces. This new Rome must not be the same fate as its predecessors. Perhaps it is best to strike now, while the Eastern Romans continue to squabble over their icons. Perhaps it is time for A War of Empires.
And as an added bonus, this will be the first update written by an official bachelor of history!
Yay, it's coming back!
As a fellow possessor of a Bachelor's in History (minor in Political Science) I say congratulations!
As a fellow possessor of a Bachelor's in History (minor in Political Science) I say congratulations!
Congrats on the degree and looking forward to the new update, one of my favourite timelines and happy that its still ongoing!!
Part 10: Clash of Empires
The first decade of the ninth century would come to be defined by a conflict that would later be known as the Second Lombard War. The first Lombard War had ended over half a century prior when Desiderius flew the Lombard banner over Ravenna. It was under Desiderius that Italy was unified once more, and it was under Desiderius that the Lombards continued the legacy of Rome- in their own eyes, if in no one else's. But the existence of the Western Roman Empire was an inherently shaky prospect. Desiderius had based his claim on three factors- the defeat of the Eastern Romans throughout Italy, the capture of Carthage and the blessing of the Pope. His son Adelchis, though crowned by the Pope, had neither held Carthage nor defeated the Eastern Romans. But the iconodule revolts in Sicily and Malta provided an opportunity. The rebuilding of the empire had begun with the conquest of Corsica, Sardinia and the Balearics, leaving Sicily as the only major island west of the Adriatic that did not answer to Rome. The iconodules of Sicily had even extended their pleas to the Lombard emperor, requesting that he protect them from the tyranny of Constantinople. A decade and a half ago Sicily had revolted, and in the uneasy peace that followed only about half the island had truly returned to the Eastern Empire's rule. The northern portion of the island remained loyal to Adelchis, to an extant at least, and Italy had swiftly become the new home for iconodule priests throughout the east. Many of these priests had ingratiated themselves to the Lombard elite by becoming tutors and spiritual guides. And through their influence on the emperor, the priests pushed Adelchis on as he made plans to take the rest of Sicily. In the summer of 800 the Lombards began their invasion of Sicily. The first phase of the conquest was to drive out the Ghafiqid pirates who had made their home base in Trapani. The Strategos of Sicily protested the action, claiming it a violation of Constantinople's right to rule the island, but his cries fell on deaf ears. By then, most of the soldiers sent to pacify the island had returned home. Further complicating matters was a deep-held resentment of the Greeks by the Sicilians for their brutal crushing of Tarasios' rebellion. The result was a messy system of disloyal soldiers and militias that fell quickly to the forces of Grimoald, duke of Benevento.
As soon as news of Grimoald's success reached Rome, another, more ambitious expedition was planned. Adelchis desired control of all of old Dalmatia, the richest areas of which were still under the control of the Eastern Empire. At the same time, the Eastern Empire was still recovering from Tarasios' rebellion and a civil war between Constantine VI and his great-uncle Nikephoros. In 801 Adelchis and Zodan led an invasion force into lower Dalmatia. It was the first time that the Lombards had fought the Eastern Roman Empire on their home turf. The casualties were greater than any of the fights against the Italian Exarchates, but the Lombards nevertheless emerged triumphant. However, it would soon become clear that the defenses the Lombards had overrun were nowhere near the true extent of Constantinople's power.
Though era-defining, the Second Lombard war was not the only conflict to occur in the opening years of the new century. At the same time, the pagan expansions in the north were continuing. In the far northern reaches of civilization, the Gaels of Dal Riata and the Picts of Pictland faced two viking invasions. The first, Fortirland, had existed for some time in uneasy peace with their Christian neighbors, fueled by raids. Just when Picts had become used to the new status quo though, another force arrived. Orm Hafrsson, the son of one of the conquerors of the Hebrides, arrived in Cait in the north of Britain, and swiftly established his own conqueror kingdom- Kaitland. Further south Grimr Haraldson was once again on a warpath against Anjou. The viking's forces went straight for the capitol of Anjou, in the process killing the Merovingian pretender. In a desperate bid for survival, Lothar ceded the northern coast of Anjou to the viking warlord, and began a frantic search for a replacement king. The third viking invasion that was occurring at the time was that of Einar Alfsson, who had wandered the north sea for years gathering a band of conquerors and raiders. In the winter of 801 his army made landfall in Jaliqiyah, and began their war against the northernmost Jund of what was once al-Gharb. Conquering the northern coast of the Jund, Einar proclaimed his new realm Sturland.
That is not to say that Christendom did not make any inroads during this time. Guillaume of Autun managed to push back against Saxon raids, reclaiming some of the land conquered by Widukind and his son Theodoric.
Nor is it accurate to say that the first decade of the ninth century was a time preoccupied only with war. The iconodules who arrived in Italy brought with them Greek ideals about religion, government and philosophy, which they passed on to their Lombard patrons and students. The greatest minds of the iconodules were brought directly to Rome to serve the Imperial government. This move by Adelchis seemed to cement the Lombard Pope's claim to power with Greek support. What was more, the fact that so many priests had abandoned the Eastern Roman Empire for the Western Roman Empire seemed to signal that the west was indeed Roman. During the opening years of the war, when the fortunes of the Lombards were high, the priests were sent to Lower Moravia to proselytize. This inevitably led to conflicts with the Bavarian missionaries, but none that boiled into actual bloodshed. Bavaria's push eastward had been halted for the time being, at least a far as borders went. Missionaries still went east to proselytize, but the attention of the Pope and King were set steadily on pacifying and Christianizing the regions of Moravia they had already conquered. In the west, Bavarian knights assisted Gullaume in his defense against the Saxons. In Brittany, the wars of expansion against the Franks ended with Judoc's death in 798, and his successor Morman attempted to appeal to his Frankish subjects through his marriage to Joveta, daughter of Dagobert IV. Morman's reign also saw the integration of Frankish nobility into the Brittany, through marriage or as fellow members of warbands. Warbands were also being formed in Akituniyya. The Kharijite ideal of universal Jihad was being put into practice, as men and women alike were urged by their spiritual leaders to take up the sword against the Norsemen, the Syrians, the Andalusians and the Aquitanians.
The Mediterranean world in 803.
The first battles of the Second Lombard War were won by the Lombards. But the fortunes of the west would soon falter. By 803 the Eastern Roman Empire had managed to disentangle itself from the mess of civil wars and Arab incursions that had kept their forces preoccupied. Later that year the Eastern Roman navy successfully assaulted Malta, returning the rebellious island chain to Constantinople's control. Soon afterwards the Eastern Romans made their second attack on Sicily in as many decades. With the bulk of the Lombard forces in Pannonia and Dalmatia, the island fell quickly, many residents more than happy to return to the east's rule. At the same time, a deal was made to the Bulgar khan Krum. Gold from Constantinople, in return for Bulgar attacks on the Lombards and Avars. Krum was more than happy to oblige this request. While the Bulgars attacked from the east, the southern flank of the Lombard army was left open to the Roman cataphracts, whilst Greek ships burned the Dalmatian coast. The Lombard navy, though powerful, was no match for the discipline of eastern sailors, nor the Greek Fire they carried aboard their ships. Within the year the ERE had not only recaptured its lost territory, but had extended its reach north to threaten Tergestum (modern Trieste). It was only in the mountains of Carantania that the Greek advance slowed. By 806 it was clear that a stalemate had been reached. The Lombards could not advance against the Greeks, but neither could the Greeks touch the Lombards. A mountain attack would be far too costly, and a disastrous attempt to land in Calabria had resulted only in dead Greeks and burning ships. Constantine VI offered Adelchis a peace, on the condition that Sicily and Dalmatia be returned, and that the title of emperor be abandoned by the Lombards. These were terms that Adelchis was unwilling to acquiesce to however, and he continued to defend the core of his empire, waiting for a lucky break in the Eastern Roman forces.
Other wars were occurring at this time as well. In Iberia the Sturlanders continued to push south. The feuding Junds were more than willing to allow the Norsemen to do as they pleased to a rival, but when the Sturlanders fully defeated Jaliqiyah, their eyes turned elsewhere, still hungry for plunder and conquest. In 804 Einar attempted to attack Akituniyya, only to find the combination of zealous inhabitants and mountainous terrain made the region far less appealing than it had initially appeared. However, the actions of Einar had not gone unnoticed in Cordoba. Hisham al-Reda called upon the leaders of Toledo and Lisbunah, trying to force an alliance between the two. It was only after both had lost land to Einar's army that the generals agreed to cooperate against the invader. Hisham also saw the war that had engulfed the Lombards and thought it a opportunity to unite his two realms. The Balearic islands had long been a thorn in his side, harassing trade and travel between Iberia and the Maghreb, and capturing them would alleviate quite a bit of trouble. At the same time, Lupo of Aquitaine launched an attack on Provence. Minor gains were made before Lupo died. His successor Chorso decided to quit while the Aquitanians were ahead, and left the war with only minor territorial changes. In Britain, changes were coming as well. Wulf's death saw Fryskenland divided between his son. To Wulf II was given the east, while Popo was given the west, under the new name of Fryskensax. And in the far north of the island, Kaitland expanded once more.
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Correction. Einar Alfsson was apparently the one to establish Sturland.
So a clash of the Romans. This won't at all drain the resources and attention of each (sarcasm). Got to admit, the possibility of a Norse Islamic kingdom in Iberia is interesting, if Sturland does convert since it appears most of Iberia is under Islamic control. And Britain is not having a good go at it. Wonder how Ireland will play a role in the future. As petty kingdoms, they're likely just a future target for the Norse kingdoms that survive. However if a powerful High Kingdom arises, it might not be wrong to say Ireland could be the most powerful realm in the British Isles.
Cuāuhtemōc
Banned
Sturland is in an interesting place linguistically, culturally and ethnically speaking. In OTL, at the dawn of the Islamic invasion, the north remained under the control of pre-Roman (mostly Hispano-Celtic) tribes like the Astures who resisted Visigothic incursions on their territories. Since the Kingdom of Asturias was absorbed by the Al-Gharvians, it remains a hodgepodge of Latinate, East Germanics, Celtics, Basques and even some Briton refugees. Would Sturland remain pagan or would it convert to either Islam or Christianity?
Would Gothic, Latin, Celtic, or some dialect of Norse prevail in this Sturlandic state?
Would Gothic, Latin, Celtic, or some dialect of Norse prevail in this Sturlandic state?
I like the idea of them eventually converting only after the pagan traditions have had a chance to root themselves within "Sturlander" society. It's not like it's unheard of for either Christianity or Islam to adopt previously pagan traditions. The pagan elements of holidays like Christmas and Easter attest to that. Plus I think it'd be interesting to have elements of Germanic paganism linger on after conversion. Maybe stories of the Norse deities could linger on as stories of so-called Saints since it isn't unprecedented for Christianity to "Christianize" stories from other religions.
I really love a united Italy as a major player in the middle ages, I hope it stays that way! It would be interesting to see middle age western europe dominated by a combo of united italy, spain, and ireland.
Christian: Italian Western Roman Empire.
Islamic: Muslim Viking Spain.
Pagan: High Kingdom of (Greater) Ireland.
Christian: Italian Western Roman Empire.
Islamic: Muslim Viking Spain.
Pagan: High Kingdom of (Greater) Ireland.
Akituniyya is Kharijite Mostly this is limited to the military elite at the moment, as it hasn't really had time to spread to the Christian Basque population. It has made some inroads due to its views on war in such violent times, and its lack of Arab trappings but its minor.
Sturland is a weird mix. It's population is mostly Christian, but Sunni Islam has been spread increasingly over the past few decades. Like the rest of Iberia both in TTL and OTL, the Islamization of Iberia was a slow and gradual process. However, the government is no longer Sunni following Einar's conquest. The military elite are Norse pagans, while the rest of the population is a mix of Christian and Sunni.
The Junds and Al-Andalus are both Sunni. Al-Andalus under Abd al-Rahman and Hisham al-Reda has been fairly tolerant and only a fraction of the Christian population has converted. The Junds are a bit too busy with their constant warfare to really bother with the religion of their subjects at the moment. Maybe in the future, if a lasting peace can be established, but not right now.
One final note about Christians in Iberia: Without Christian rulers to side with one Pope or the other, the situation of the Schism has been left to individual communities. Most of them have simply continued to follow the Pope in Rome, out of convenience or tradition. A small handful, mostly in the north, have changed their allegiance to the Pope in Bavaria.