The Jaguar's Roar - An Aztec Timeline
- Thread starter Vinization
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I’m excited to see more of the Tawantinsuyu, by the way what is Qusqu’s policy towards Christians (missionaries and converts alike)? Hopefully nothing like the Tokugawa in the 17th century.
I don't want to risk spoiling things, so you'll have to wait until the next chapter to get your answers. Sorry.
That’s fine.I don't want to risk spoiling things, so you'll have to wait until the next chapter to get your answers. Sorry.
It's nice to see that this timeline is back.
The Mexica encountering the Tawatinsuyu is very nice, though any tangible benefits will have to wait until this new threat is quelled. What's more important is the capability to produce European-level naval vessels to compete with the Spanish, which would do wonders for both international trade and defense for the Empire against other European powers. I cannot wait to see how this new era will develop for the Aztec Empire, and it feels like their wings have been fully unfurled at this point.
The Mexica encountering the Tawatinsuyu is very nice, though any tangible benefits will have to wait until this new threat is quelled. What's more important is the capability to produce European-level naval vessels to compete with the Spanish, which would do wonders for both international trade and defense for the Empire against other European powers. I cannot wait to see how this new era will develop for the Aztec Empire, and it feels like their wings have been fully unfurled at this point.
Wow, how have I not read this timeline yet? So excited to sink my teeth into this
I find lack of Jacque Cartier strange. If French can conquer Brazil from Portuguese, surely they can do the same to Protuguese Canada. I wonder why Francis I sent the expedition to Brazil instead of Canada.
Also should'nt a more financially hamstringed Charles give more approval to Weslers to form Klein Venedig?
Curious why that isn't the case ittl.
Also wonder who will Colonise "Louisiana", whether it will be a different colonial power than those already mentioned in the story or will it be colonised by the one who controls Canada or Deep South? Or will it remain uncolonised?
Also should'nt a more financially hamstringed Charles give more approval to Weslers to form Klein Venedig?
Curious why that isn't the case ittl.
Also wonder who will Colonise "Louisiana", whether it will be a different colonial power than those already mentioned in the story or will it be colonised by the one who controls Canada or Deep South? Or will it remain uncolonised?
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Cartier didn't go to Brazil, that was another, far more obscure expedition which failed IOTL. Plus, the Portuguese had no presence in Brazil at this time except for some feitorias, which isn't the case in Canada ITTL.
🤷♂️ I may or may not involve them in the story - their scheme in Venezuela was a fiasco after all, and I have enough butterflies in my hands to deal with.
Someone will colonize it, but I'm not set on who at the moment. The Spanish are already close by, though.
It's cocoliztli time.
(Also, OP hid all the clues in plain sight in a cuisine post, which is honestly impressing.)
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Hello, this timeline caught my attention from among other Turtledove nominees, but I have a question. Provided it is not a huge secret OP, will Aztecs get Christianized in this timeline? Honestly if they are not it would be quite ASB. Because all European countries would seek to destroy them because of their monstrous religious practices, and honestly I'd cheer them on as they did so. Therefore not just would I find it implausible, but also not pleasant to read about mass murdering zealots.
It is fine if the timeline explores Aztecs as they were and doesn't mean to change them, it is unlikely but not impossible that they would endure. But it would just not be for me so I'd rather know before I start reading.
Thanks either way.
It is fine if the timeline explores Aztecs as they were and doesn't mean to change them, it is unlikely but not impossible that they would endure. But it would just not be for me so I'd rather know before I start reading.
Thanks either way.
I've read up to chapter 19 and in chapter 18 the Aztecs religion got a major reformation. There is less sacrifice with the intention of it being outlawed in the future. I'm pretty sure there is a lot more that the reformation entails but I don't know what all of it is. I'm not sure if this means that their religion is here to stay and will simply get reformed until it fits in with a modern society or if they will convert eventually anyway.
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Thank you for the answer. I suppose that could suffice to keep the Europeans at bay. A middle ground between what's plausible and keeping the Aztecs, Aztec.
I mean the Europeans will still seek to conquer them in the name of God, or that will be their excuse at least. And maybe later because they are "savages in need of civilizing." But it won't be a fanatical "kill the devil worshippers" crusade as it might have been if they did not moderate their beliefs. Like that it is at least plausible their culture can endure and if lucky avoid foreign conquest entirely.
When I find the time to read this you'll hear more from me, until then
The idea of colonizing this region comes primarily from Nicolas Durand de Villegaignon, born in Provins in 1510, gentleman and soldier, knight of Malta and vice-admiral of Brittany, whose classmate was Calvin at the University of Orleans. In 1553, he pleaded with Gaspard de Chatillon-Coligny, admiral of France, for a project to colonize Brazil. The latter quickly understood the political interest of such a colonial expansion that would consist in dealing a blow to Iberian hegemony in America, which easily convinced Henry II: “A young and strong France would emerge overseas". Basically the idea of colonizing Brazil became a popular trend among the naval nobility and traders.
They will probably focus aggression on the viceroyalty of the Plate River. In fact I would say that Portugal and France will have very bad relations in this regard. Portugal does not have the strength to hold the plata basin. So in the long term, unless there is a debt intervention (aka the biggest luck of the century) this is a complicated region. With the colonies not being very productive, Portugal will focus heavily on Asia (much more than in OTL). For example, the dispute over Brazil between Portugal and France. Had a intense French maritime activity is accompanied by numerous acts of piracy and aggression against the Portuguese to try to expel them from the region, both in Brazilian waters (the first French ship was boarded in Brazil in 1504, in the bay of the river Paraguaçu), as well as at mandatory crossing points on return routes (Azores, Ireland Sea and other important connections). The situation got so bad that the French Atlantic merchant and military navy was attacking any Portuguese ship they encountered on the way to Brazil. Basically this navy (France had two for each ocean, the Atlantic and Mediterranean) was in an open war with the Portuguese navy (even if France was not) That is why, in a spirit of appeasement, the French and Portuguese sovereigns, after signing a treaty of friendship in Lyon (July 14, 1536), they convened in Bayonne, in 1537, a Court of Awards, intended to resolve conflicts between French and Portuguese shipowners. This Court, however, did not bring any agreement, except that Francisco I undertook to prohibit his subjects from trading in Brazil. The Atlantic navy obey (kinda, becausee it continued to act aggressively towards the Portuguese).
Well about Brazil and France. (it's kind of a reused and modified answer from another thearth about this):
The king was not the main figure in the colonization of this region. The French Atlantic Navy was the group pushing colonization (or rather the admiral and the cities with influence in the Atlantic Navy ). These naval and commercial elites, the Admiralty of Rouen (atlantic navy) and the merchants/nobility of the city as a whole and set up an immense decoration representing the Brazilian lands with their forest, cutting and transport. burning wood, animals and “natural” fruits for the king of France. This is partially due to the dispute between the Atlantic navy and the Mediterranean navy. The Atlantic navy was very decentralized and this colony and (future ones) would provide the funds needed to reform and truly centralize that navy. Brazil curiously had an important place in the French imagination, Brazil has been for France the land of all commerce: ""commerce of souls" for Protestants or Catholics ( from Fort Coligny, in Rio de Janeiro, to Fort Saint Louis, in Maranhão), "product trade" by smugglers, pirates or privateers (in Paraíba, São Vicente or Rio de Janeiro for Dugay Trouin, for example) and " trade of ideas” by scientists and artists (from La Condamine to the French Artistic Mission of 1816).
In OTL the concern for France was so great that the Portuguese king, at the beginning of the 16th century, published a decree ordering all his subjects, under penalty of death, to sink all French ships leaving or arriving from Brazil. And that was not without reason, in 1540 nine ships from Rouen were send to Brazil; fifteen Dieppe ships and ships from Brittany are equipped for the same destination (24 in total). In 1541, thirty to forty ships left for South America and especially Brazil. In 1546, a fleet of twenty-eight ships left Le Havre bound for Brazil.
Parmentier complained that the King of France (did not take seriously the influence of the French among the inhabitants of Brazil: "If the King of France had wanted to free himself a little from the French traders in less than four or five years, they would have won the friendship and assured the obedience of the people of these new lands, and this without any other weapons than persuasion and procedures”. For the great captain, in the space of these four or five years “the French would have penetrated further into the interior of the country than the Portuguese in fifty years , and the inhabitants would probably persecute the latter” * - Barbosa, Mario de Lima, 1923, Les Français dans l’histoire du Brésil, Rio de Janeiro-Paris, Briguiet & Blanchard. The King in OTL was more of a hindrance than a help.
Sorry for taking so long to answer your question, I forgot about it. 😓
I'm usually far more secretive about this, but since I already wrote an update focused on religion I might as well be upfront on this subject: no, the Mexica will not be fully christianized here, nor will the Tawantinsuyu for that matter. There will certainly be some intermingling and shenanigans by missionaries here and there, but full conversion will not happen.
Even if the Mexicas don't fully embrace Catholicism, do you think they will embrace Hispanicization? (not necessarily customs, but the widespread use of Spanish as a "business and diplomatic" language, that eventually starts to be part of the grassroot population, even if Nahuatl never loses its status as the official and most spoken language in the region)
Are we likely to see some form of pidgin/creole forming - an Españahuatl, if you will?