The Great Silent One - Moltke the Austrian TL

[Imperator Hollandica]

Chapter VI - Peace and Compromise
​

As Austrian Dragoons paraded through Berlin, peace settled all over Germany. Prussia's gamble has failed, and the Kaiser in Vienna was now free to dictate his terms, deciding the fate of the Confederation. In the Peace of Prague, Prussia was effectively shut out of the Confederation, relegating it to be a secondary power. The terms were:
- Prussia cedes Silesia to Austria
- Prussia acknowledges the secession of the Rhineland and an independent Duchy in the German Confederation
- The province of Hohenzollern is annexed by Württemberg

With.

Would it make more sense to split the Rhineland (Paltinate) & Westphalia province into separation "Kingdoms". Westphalia alone has a larger population than Bavaria. And to make Bavaria happy you could add the Former Prussian Pfalz (Palitinate) to Bavaria. Bavaria already had an enclave of a part of the Pfalz. And elevate the former prince of Hohenzollern King of Westphalia. His Prussian cousins might be a little less disappointed with that.

Furthermore: I do enjoy your story.

 

[Imperator Hollandica]

I have also edited Chapter VI's Bern Convention as follows:



Thanks to @JCVocke for the valuable input on a more realistic Italian partition.

France annexing: "Sardinia" ? you mean the Island or do you refer the Piedmont-Sardinia ?

 

[JCVocke]

I do have to agree that Prussia would probably not be forced to cede Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen. It has too much history to the Hohenzollerns, for obvious reasons. Ironically enough, the only way I could see Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen being detached completely from Prussia would be a similar situation to how it was actually detached in history; A Revolution forces the Hohenzolerns out of Prussia. This could result in them staying rulers of H-S, which would be hilariously tragic, or not.

What could be really interesting is if a Republic is proclaimed in Prussia, which then, since it is mostly made up of German Nationalists who will now see the Hungary-less Austria as the obvious choice for unification, will quickly petition to rejoin the German Confederation as it evolves into a Federal German Empire. This could be a really interesting thing because it means that a still semi-Large Prussia would be the only Major Republic in an otherwise Monarchical German Empire and WHOO BOI does that have the potential for shenanigans latter down in the story. It would also serve as another potential justification for a rapid Prussian Admittance, though I think the setup you already have with the King of Prussia vocally opposing Bismarck's plan and removing him once it fails also works fine.

I could also see Russia, though supporting Austria completely, still recommend mercy upon the defeated Prussia, as they did the same thing in the 1848 revolutions after the defeat of Hungary. If you want to use this as a justification for Prussia retaining some of Silesia or the Rheinland-Westfalia region, that would make sense. Personally I do think Austria would insist on receiving all of Silesia.

Also yes I was recommending France 'just' annex the Island of Sardinia. I'm also not sure how willing to accept a Bonaparte Piedmont Austria would be, as that puts it very close to Bonaparte France. I think enforced Neutrality is the best option from both France and Austria's standpoint.

 

[Gloss]

I do have to agree that Prussia would probably not be forced to cede Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen. It has too much history to the Hohenzollerns, for obvious reasons. Ironically enough, the only way I could see Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen being detached completely from Prussia would be a similar situation to how it was actually detached in history; A Revolution forces the Hohenzolerns out of Prussia. This could result in them staying rulers of H-S, which would be hilariously tragic, or not.

What could be really interesting is if a Republic is proclaimed in Prussia, which then, since it is mostly made up of German Nationalists who will now see the Hungary-less Austria as the obvious choice for unification, will quickly petition to rejoin the German Confederation as it evolves into a Federal German Empire. This could be a really interesting thing because it means that a still semi-Large Prussia would be the only Major Republic in an otherwise Monarchical German Empire and WHOO BOI does that have the potential for shenanigans latter down in the story. It would also serve as another potential justification for a rapid Prussian Admittance, though I think the setup you already have with the King of Prussia vocally opposing Bismarck's plan and removing him once it fails also works fine.

I could also see Russia, though supporting Austria completely, still recommend mercy upon the defeated Prussia, as they did the same thing in the 1848 revolutions after the defeat of Hungary. If you want to use this as a justification for Prussia retaining some of Silesia or the Rheinland-Westfalia region, that would make sense. Personally I do think Austria would insist on receiving all of Silesia.

Also yes I was recommending France 'just' annex the Island of Sardinia. I'm also not sure how willing to accept a Bonaparte Piedmont Austria would be, as that puts it very close to Bonaparte France. I think enforced Neutrality is the best option from both France and Austria's standpoint.

A democratic revolution in Prussia withouth Rhineland? Seems unlikely, we are talking of mostly Junker land there, there is simply not enough of a push for democracy even among the poor population.

Would it make more sense to split the Rhineland (Paltinate) & Westphalia province into separation "Kingdoms". Westphalia alone has a larger population than Bavaria. And to make Bavaria happy you could add the Former Prussian Pfalz (Palitinate) to Bavaria. Bavaria already had an enclave of a part of the Pfalz. And elevate the former prince of Hohenzollern King of Westphalia. His Prussian cousins might be a little less disappointed with that.

Furthermore: I do enjoy your story.

A Hohenzollern Westphalia is interesting, would the Protestant or Catholic branch rule it?

 

[Gloss]

For the flag, what about this?

 

[Superpacman_21/]

Nooooo my eyes , what is the red thing there ?

 

[Gloss]

Nooooo my eyes , what is the red thing there ?

Pure Austrian red, directly picked from the historical naval flag! Also represents the Hansa!

 

[Superpacman_21/]

I know is just that where it is makes me think of lego

 

[EternalDawn]

I like the flag picked by the author.

 

[Ludwig von Stieglitz]

Hmm, if you have those 2 colors you could as well add the red to have the German tricolor at this point(red which was also used in the naval and otherwise older flags of Austria and later in the dual monarchy), also I'd probably make it more golden than black and add the HRE bird in there as well, you can't be too humble with a 4 centuries imperial dynasty leading it.

I agree

 

[Imperator Hollandica]

A democratic revolution in Prussia withouth Rhineland? Seems unlikely, we are talking of mostly Junker land there, there is simply not enough of a push for democracy even among the poor population.

A Hohenzollern Westphalia is interesting, would the Protestant or Catholic branch rule it?

The catholic branch of course. The former Prince (Fürst) of Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen. It would be a promotion for him to become a King. Losing your Principally but gain a ( very rich) Kingdom. Westphalia’s population is predominantly catholic. They were never much pleased being part of Prussia since 1815.

 

[Gloss]

The catholic branch of course. The former Prince (Fürst) of Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen. It would be a promotion for him to become a King. Losing your Principally but gain a ( very rich) Kingdom. Westphalia’s population is predominantly catholic. They were never much pleased being part of Prussia since 1815.

It's not true it was predominantly Catholic, it was a 50:50 thing and many portions of Westfalia were under Prussia for almost 2 and a half century:

 

[Tapirus Augustus]

It's not true it was predominantly Catholic, it was a 50:50 thing and many portions of Westfalia were under Prussia for almost 2 and a half century:

It's definitely more than 50% catholic. And given that it's going to be the Austrians drawing up the treaty it would be weird if they didn't choose a catholic.

 

[Gloss]

It's definitely more than 50% catholic. And given that it's going to be the Austrians drawing up the treaty it would be weird if they didn't choose a catholic.

I get the reasoning for it being under the Catholic branch, although I was just disputing the numbers, it was almost 50:50 with Catholic majority in 1905, but that could be because of many Ruhrpolen(or maybe not, I would have to look)

Who would rule the Rhineland proper?

 

[Imperator Hollandica]

I get the reasoning for it being under the Catholic branch, although I was just disputing the numbers, it was almost 50:50 with Catholic majority in 1905, but that could be because of many Ruhrpolen(or maybe not, I would have to look)

Who would rule the Rhineland proper?

When I mentioned Westphalia I mean the today’s German Lander of North Rhineland Westphalia. The majority of that part has been Catholic. Rurpolen came there late 19th century. The map shon above are only the counties of Kleves-Marks and Ravensberg. Which became part of Brandenburg in 1648 by the treaty of Xanten. The other duchies and counties in Rhine-Westphalia remained predominantly Catholic.

I mentioned earlier that the Prussian Rhineland province ( not to be confused with the North Rhine-Westphalia province) to merge with the Bavarian Palatinate. So you get the almost the same borders as the current German Lander of Rhineland-Palatinate.

 

[Gloss]

When I mentioned Westphalia I mean the today’s German Lander of North Rhineland Westphalia. The majority of that part has been Catholic. Rurpolen came there late 19th century. The map shon above are only the counties of Kleves-Marks and Ravensberg. Which became part of Brandenburg in 1648 by the treaty of Xanten. The other duchies and counties in Rhine-Westphalia remained predominantly Catholic.

I mentioned earlier that the Prussian Rhineland province ( not to be confused with the North Rhine-Westphalia province) to merge with the Bavarian Palatinate. So you get the almost the same borders as the current German Lander of Rhineland-Palatinate.

But why? I don't see why the 2 duchies/kingdoms would follow those borders at all, I'd think the borders of the 2 Prussian provinces would be quite good themselves outside moving Prussian Kleves to Westfalia, surely though Bavaria wouldn't be rewarded with so much land for nothing(I don't imagine they would bring much to the war that would be fought mainly in Brandenburg, Saxony and Silesia, not rebelling Rhineland.

I think they can at best get the Saar but I don't see why Austria would want to make Bavaria stronger at all(although there is the argument that because Bavaria controlled it before 1789 it should go to them but they were already compensated in many ways in Vienna), so I think that if they don't give the whole of Rhineland-Westfalia to a Catholic Hohenzollern it would have to go somewhere, heck maybe an Hapsburg? Or maybe an alternate Wittelsbach line, surely though not Bavaria itself, that I can guarantee.

 

[Noblesse Oblige]

May I make a case here, and it's probably a stupid idea?

How about make a restoration of the original three provinces that makes up Prussia's Rhine and Westphalia provinces. I'm talking about splitting up the Rhine Province into a restored Grand Duchy of the Lower Rhine, and the United Duchies of Julich and Berg. (Not Kleves, as you can flip that to Westphalia.)

Westphalia could be given to a Catholic Hohenzollern branch (considering that the Sigmarignen branch is without land and the Hechingen branch is without direct heirs, you could pass it to Karl Anton, who at the time is the current head.)

Julich-Berg could be given to a Wittelsbach. I suggest Prince Adalbert, the youngest son of King Ludwig I.

And Rhineland could be given to yet another branch of the House of Habsburg. I mean to be real here, it's the closest the Habsburg's are going to get to their ancestral lands in Lorraine. As for whom though...kinda grasping at straws. My top pick would be Karl Ludwig, since at this point Franz Joseph should have a son.

 

[Gloss]

May I make a case here, and it's probably a stupid idea?

How about make a restoration of the original three provinces that makes up Prussia's Rhine and Westphalia provinces. I'm talking about splitting up the Rhine Province into a restored Grand Duchy of the Lower Rhine, and the United Duchies of Julich and Berg. (Not Kleves, as you can flip that to Westphalia.)

Westphalia could be given to a Catholic Hohenzollern branch (considering that the Sigmarignen branch is without land and the Hechingen branch is without direct heirs, you could pass it to Karl Anton, who at the time is the current head.)

Julich-Berg could be given to a Wittelsbach. I suggest Prince Adalbert, the youngest son of King Ludwig I.

And Rhineland could be given to yet another branch of the House of Habsburg. I mean to be real here, it's the closest the Habsburg's are going to get to their ancestral lands in Lorraine. As for whom though...kinda grasping at straws. My top pick would be Karl Ludwig, since at this point Franz Joseph should have a son.

I actually quite like this idea, borders are historically justified, many parties are satisfied, Austria manages to reward many without making anyone too strong and forces people to collaborate with the Confederation:

Spoiler

 

[Ultima Ratio]

May I make a case here, and it's probably a stupid idea?

How about make a restoration of the original three provinces that makes up Prussia's Rhine and Westphalia provinces. I'm talking about splitting up the Rhine Province into a restored Grand Duchy of the Lower Rhine, and the United Duchies of Julich and Berg. (Not Kleves, as you can flip that to Westphalia.)

Westphalia could be given to a Catholic Hohenzollern branch (considering that the Sigmarignen branch is without land and the Hechingen branch is without direct heirs, you could pass it to Karl Anton, who at the time is the current head.)

Julich-Berg could be given to a Wittelsbach. I suggest Prince Adalbert, the youngest son of King Ludwig I.

And Rhineland could be given to yet another branch of the House of Habsburg. I mean to be real here, it's the closest the Habsburg's are going to get to their ancestral lands in Lorraine. As for whom though...kinda grasping at straws. My top pick would be Karl Ludwig, since at this point Franz Joseph should have a son.

I too am sold on this idea. However, I still think Austria would want to take all of Silesia. Is this absolutely impossible?

Thanks for all the ideas guys, sorry for the late reply, I went on a small vacation.

I'll be amending the update on the Peace of Prague to reflect the changes above.

 

[Ultima Ratio]

For the flag, what about this?

While this makes sense, I think it's kind of all over the place. I really-really like the look of the black-gold-black, but I agree, it could use an imperial eagle