Comic books especially. I remember being ardently against revisions originally.
The Great Crusade (Reds! Part 3)
- Thread starter Aelita
- Start date
Comic books especially. I remember being ardently against revisions originally.
The other theaters were much more tit for tat. The Chinese theater was more "seven years of Japanese rape and slaughter" than a war. The Chinese were very much not able to fight Japan on an even basis and it shows in the military casualty disparities.
I think that targeting Stalinism specifically is what will happen because contrary to OTL (where he recently witnessed the Spanish anarchists being wiped out by fascists), Orwell does have a successful democratic socialist model to lean on a ideological level. Maybe, have "heroic" communist democrats overthrowing Napoleon in a proletarian revolution could certainly be a funny consequence of TTL's butterflies. Or maybe not... most of Orwell's books were quite depressing.
Well, TTL's 1984 has a more optimistic ending. With no Stalinism (which was still around when the book was written), and the aforementioned presence of a fully democratic socialist state, it might have a more optimistic ending.
It very well might never be written, Orwell is going to be far less cynical and disenchanted with politics. If he goes to fight in the American civil war like he did in Spain he could very well be renouncing his British citizenship for it.
He also tended to target Stalinism. I think his real cynicism set in when he lost hope in democratic communism to win the day. Which means in effect, a choice between the capitalist democracy or Stalinism.
Here comes a VERY much needed Index
So, because this thread has been going on for years and is now nearly 150 pages long- mostly of comments- I decided to hunt down all of the updates, not only the ones made by Jello but also the canonized fan subscription. I don't know if I caught them all (no pun intended
) but I think I missed one about Churchill giving a speech in the parliament (the speech is in the TVTropes page but I can't find it here).
So without delay here's the VERY much needed index for this long-runner thread:
So, because this thread has been going on for years and is now nearly 150 pages long- mostly of comments- I decided to hunt down all of the updates, not only the ones made by Jello but also the canonized fan subscription. I don't know if I caught them all (no pun intended
) but I think I missed one about Churchill giving a speech in the parliament (the speech is in the TVTropes page but I can't find it here).So without delay here's the VERY much needed index for this long-runner thread:
- A History of the Global Antifascist Struggle
- The Road to War
- Babylon: An Economic Anthology of the Second World War
- Operation Teutonic
- The Arsenal of Socialism
- The Siege of Leningrad
- Weapons of the Second World War
- Overview and Documentaries
- Foster and Churchill's date
- The War in the Pacific
- China in the Second world war
- Henry Ford the Arch-Traitor (Part 1)
- Henry Ford the Arch-Traitor (Part 2)
- Henry Ford the Arch-Traitor (Part 3)
- Gun Porn
- Operation Valkyrie: The Drive on Moscow
Don't forget the tanks and my quotes.So, because this thread has been going on for years and is now nearly 150 pages long- mostly of comments- I decided to hunt down all of the updates, not only the ones made by Jello but also the canonized fan subscription. I don't know if I caught them all (no pun intended
So without delay here's the VERY much needed index for this long-runner thread:
- A History of the Global Antifascist Struggle
- The Road to War
- Babylon: An Economic Anthology of the Second World War
- Operation Teutonic
- The Arsenal of Socialism
- The Siege of Leningrad
- Weapons of the Second World War
- Overview and Documentaries
- Foster and Churchill's date
- The War in the Pacific
- China in the Second world war
- Henry Ford the Arch-Traitor (Part 1)
- Henry Ford the Arch-Traitor (Part 2)
- Henry Ford the Arch-Traitor (Part 3)
- Gun Porn
- Operation Valkyrie: The Drive on Moscow
Also, I know I said I'd get some propaganda out first, but I've got some stuff in mind for the war in Scandinavia/Northern Russia.
Military Awards of the UASR
(just some stuff I've been meaning to post but never found a good place to fit in)
By order of precedence
Hero of Socialist Labor: Heroic acts at risk of life above and beyond the call of duty. Medal w/ neck ribbon. "A red brass five pointed star, surrounded by a green laurel wreath. In the center of the star, the coat of arms of the UASR."
Cross of Spartacus: Extraordinary heroism not justifying the Hero of Socialist Labor. Compare Distinguish Service Cross. "A red brass cross, bearing the emblem of the service (Army, Navy, etc.), surmounted by a banner that reads 'De Oppresso Liber'"
Order of the Red Banner: Compare Distinguished Service Medal. For exceptionally distinguished service to the workers' republic in a duty of great responsibility. Medal based on the Soviet Order of the Red Banner.
Silver Star:
Bronze Star:
Purple Heart:
(just some stuff I've been meaning to post but never found a good place to fit in)
By order of precedence
Hero of Socialist Labor: Heroic acts at risk of life above and beyond the call of duty. Medal w/ neck ribbon. "A red brass five pointed star, surrounded by a green laurel wreath. In the center of the star, the coat of arms of the UASR."
Cross of Spartacus: Extraordinary heroism not justifying the Hero of Socialist Labor. Compare Distinguish Service Cross. "A red brass cross, bearing the emblem of the service (Army, Navy, etc.), surmounted by a banner that reads 'De Oppresso Liber'"
Order of the Red Banner: Compare Distinguished Service Medal. For exceptionally distinguished service to the workers' republic in a duty of great responsibility. Medal based on the Soviet Order of the Red Banner.
Silver Star:
Bronze Star:
Purple Heart:
China in the Second World War Part 2 by Red Star Rising
Excerpt from China in the Second world war by General (class AAAAA) Leang*
(Continued)
One of the battles that would set the tone for China's bloodiest war was one of the first major battles; the battle for Shanghai. The Guomindang and the Chinese Communist Party both realized that China could not fight Japan evenly. Japan's soldiers were better trained, equipped, and supplied, while all China had at its call was size, numbers, and knowledge of the terrain. So it was decided to make use of these advantages by forcing Japan to fight in another front by attacking Japan's legation in Shanghai; hopefully dividing Japan's resources from its crushing offensives from Manchuria.
On paper, this strategy was sound. Japan's superiority in air, armor, and sea assets would be mitigated by the confines of the city; which would make air attack more difficult and absorb the shells of cruisers and battleships while mitigating Japan's overwhelming superiority in the numbers of tanks it had. Similarly, Japan's great superiority in artillery would also be nullified by fighting within the city rather than the open field. However, Japanese fortifications proved to be extremely difficult to penetrate, easily resisting the light artillery China brought either in towed form or mounted on vehicles. The only artillery that could reliably defeat these fortifications; large 150+mm guns, were not available in anywhere near enough numbers.
This forced Jiang Jieshi's crack divisions of foreign (often German) trained troops and the much less capable "formations" of warlord troops, to have to attempt to encircle each bunker and get close enough to throw grenades through the window. This almost immediately brought the Chinese advance through the city to a dead stop, which was further worsened by the lack of training in combined arms tactics leading to precious tanks, assault guns, armored cars, and SPGs driving well out of the reach of infantry and being cut down by Japanese artillery and tanks who would then move in counter offensives that threatened to repel the offensive entirely. However, China had a secret weapon; precious Soviet and American produced 45mm cannons were available that were quite capable of repulsing the Japanese tanks in the city, helping to press the Japanese legation to the sea.
Unfortunately, the general staff had underestimated the time that Japan could reinforce shanghai by sea. Japan had anticipated that in the event of war with China; its legations would likely come under attack, and had prepared troops for just such an occasion and now hoped to catch and crush as many of China's best troops as possible. The IJN soon swarmed the city and landed fresh troops; including the elite Japanese Sentai marines; and this relief force came with a secret weapon of Japan's own. Char B1 tanks bought from France as part of France's hopes to contain America's pacific ambitions and mollify Japan rolled out of the landing craft like turtles crawling to shore, their armor proving to be essentially impervious to any Chinese weapon on the field and their own capable of scything through any obstacle in their path. Foreign bought assault guns and natively produced urban warfare weapons such as flamethrowers would help seal the fate of the Chinese forces in the city as Japan had laid its trap.
The orders given to Iwane Matsui and his fellow commanders were simple; destroy as many of China's foreign produced and trained assets as possible and seize all of Shanghai. Now it was the National Revolutionary Army on the defensive, and while they fought as well as they possibly could have, they could not hold. The Imperial Japanese Army had prepared to encircle the city and in doing so; ensure the annihilation of hundreds of thousands of Chinese troops and seize thousands of tonnes of foreign materiel. However, the Chinese refused to go quietly, fighting block by block, trench by trench, house by house, and room by room against the Japanese, even if it meant going with rifles and pistols against submachine guns, flamethrowers, and swords. Even if they had nothing to harm Japanese tanks, they would still lob Sanjurjo cocktails, Grenades and rifle fire at their roofs in hopes of stopping them or even launch defiant suicide attacks if nothing else was available. Again and again would the Japanese be forced to torch whole buildings with flamethrowers to drive out the Chinese or collapse them with cannon fire or air strikes, increasingly frustrating the Japanese advance. Sometimes, even the naval guns would be called upon to reduce Chinese holdings to ruin and rubble so that they could be slain by the IJA and Sentai.
While the NRA had nearly twice as many troops committed to the battle, the simple fact was that the Japanese advantage in firepower was insurmountable. Even with their training, the NRA's divisions could at best, only delay the encroaching Japanese. Any concentration of strength could be reduced through the weight of fire the Japanese could bring to bear, and while there were advantages to fighting within a city, the NRA soon found that these advantages apply more to an army with the tools to make the most out of them. The Chinese forces were lacking in the appropriate weapons to engage in city warfare in equal terms to the Japanese, and though the NRA's troops generally fought admirably, the forces of Allied warlords proved to be substantially flakier and less disciplined, ceding numerous locations that they could have held for substantially longer had they possessed steelier nerves.
And in the fighting outside the city itself, the advantages held by the IJA simply became more and more pronounced. Thanks to Japan's superior industrial capacity and greater reserves of hard currency with which to buy weapons, the Japanese in the open field were capable of fielding all the panoply of modern war. Having intently studied the actions in the ongoing Spanish civil war and other modern day conflicts with observers that Japan could afford to send in much greater numbers than the Chinese could; the IJA applied all the lessons of warfare in the thirties to smashing the troops the Republic of China could commit to the fray. China, forced to by lack of equipment as much as tactics to fight in a capacity much more reminiscent of earlier phases of warfare, could not contest such a show of force indefinitely. Little by little, the NRA's attempted second front was unfolding into a major debacle as the Imperial Japanese Army was not only winning, but inflicting heavily disproportionate casualties on their opponents.
It was soon clear that further resistance was hopeless and escape was attempted from the Japanese vise. With the aid of CCP guerrillas and local warlords, many NRA and warlord forces entrapped by the IJA managed to slip through in a retreat from the city, including a number of vital foreign trained soldiers and materiel assets. However the majority of the Chinese soldiers would not be so lucky, and were left to the mercies of Japanese treatment. With Shanghai lost, nearby Nanking was left vulnerable and Jiang Jieshi and the GMD's leadership soon realized as much and ordered a full evacuation of the city. And with the IJA's tempers flared after what was supposed to be a quick affair beginning on the 27th of June only to stretch out until the 10th of September, the CCP and GMD were keenly aware that anything left in Nanking was likely to suffer tremendously.
(To be continued)
(Continued)
One of the battles that would set the tone for China's bloodiest war was one of the first major battles; the battle for Shanghai. The Guomindang and the Chinese Communist Party both realized that China could not fight Japan evenly. Japan's soldiers were better trained, equipped, and supplied, while all China had at its call was size, numbers, and knowledge of the terrain. So it was decided to make use of these advantages by forcing Japan to fight in another front by attacking Japan's legation in Shanghai; hopefully dividing Japan's resources from its crushing offensives from Manchuria.
On paper, this strategy was sound. Japan's superiority in air, armor, and sea assets would be mitigated by the confines of the city; which would make air attack more difficult and absorb the shells of cruisers and battleships while mitigating Japan's overwhelming superiority in the numbers of tanks it had. Similarly, Japan's great superiority in artillery would also be nullified by fighting within the city rather than the open field. However, Japanese fortifications proved to be extremely difficult to penetrate, easily resisting the light artillery China brought either in towed form or mounted on vehicles. The only artillery that could reliably defeat these fortifications; large 150+mm guns, were not available in anywhere near enough numbers.
This forced Jiang Jieshi's crack divisions of foreign (often German) trained troops and the much less capable "formations" of warlord troops, to have to attempt to encircle each bunker and get close enough to throw grenades through the window. This almost immediately brought the Chinese advance through the city to a dead stop, which was further worsened by the lack of training in combined arms tactics leading to precious tanks, assault guns, armored cars, and SPGs driving well out of the reach of infantry and being cut down by Japanese artillery and tanks who would then move in counter offensives that threatened to repel the offensive entirely. However, China had a secret weapon; precious Soviet and American produced 45mm cannons were available that were quite capable of repulsing the Japanese tanks in the city, helping to press the Japanese legation to the sea.
Unfortunately, the general staff had underestimated the time that Japan could reinforce shanghai by sea. Japan had anticipated that in the event of war with China; its legations would likely come under attack, and had prepared troops for just such an occasion and now hoped to catch and crush as many of China's best troops as possible. The IJN soon swarmed the city and landed fresh troops; including the elite Japanese Sentai marines; and this relief force came with a secret weapon of Japan's own. Char B1 tanks bought from France as part of France's hopes to contain America's pacific ambitions and mollify Japan rolled out of the landing craft like turtles crawling to shore, their armor proving to be essentially impervious to any Chinese weapon on the field and their own capable of scything through any obstacle in their path. Foreign bought assault guns and natively produced urban warfare weapons such as flamethrowers would help seal the fate of the Chinese forces in the city as Japan had laid its trap.
The orders given to Iwane Matsui and his fellow commanders were simple; destroy as many of China's foreign produced and trained assets as possible and seize all of Shanghai. Now it was the National Revolutionary Army on the defensive, and while they fought as well as they possibly could have, they could not hold. The Imperial Japanese Army had prepared to encircle the city and in doing so; ensure the annihilation of hundreds of thousands of Chinese troops and seize thousands of tonnes of foreign materiel. However, the Chinese refused to go quietly, fighting block by block, trench by trench, house by house, and room by room against the Japanese, even if it meant going with rifles and pistols against submachine guns, flamethrowers, and swords. Even if they had nothing to harm Japanese tanks, they would still lob Sanjurjo cocktails, Grenades and rifle fire at their roofs in hopes of stopping them or even launch defiant suicide attacks if nothing else was available. Again and again would the Japanese be forced to torch whole buildings with flamethrowers to drive out the Chinese or collapse them with cannon fire or air strikes, increasingly frustrating the Japanese advance. Sometimes, even the naval guns would be called upon to reduce Chinese holdings to ruin and rubble so that they could be slain by the IJA and Sentai.
While the NRA had nearly twice as many troops committed to the battle, the simple fact was that the Japanese advantage in firepower was insurmountable. Even with their training, the NRA's divisions could at best, only delay the encroaching Japanese. Any concentration of strength could be reduced through the weight of fire the Japanese could bring to bear, and while there were advantages to fighting within a city, the NRA soon found that these advantages apply more to an army with the tools to make the most out of them. The Chinese forces were lacking in the appropriate weapons to engage in city warfare in equal terms to the Japanese, and though the NRA's troops generally fought admirably, the forces of Allied warlords proved to be substantially flakier and less disciplined, ceding numerous locations that they could have held for substantially longer had they possessed steelier nerves.
And in the fighting outside the city itself, the advantages held by the IJA simply became more and more pronounced. Thanks to Japan's superior industrial capacity and greater reserves of hard currency with which to buy weapons, the Japanese in the open field were capable of fielding all the panoply of modern war. Having intently studied the actions in the ongoing Spanish civil war and other modern day conflicts with observers that Japan could afford to send in much greater numbers than the Chinese could; the IJA applied all the lessons of warfare in the thirties to smashing the troops the Republic of China could commit to the fray. China, forced to by lack of equipment as much as tactics to fight in a capacity much more reminiscent of earlier phases of warfare, could not contest such a show of force indefinitely. Little by little, the NRA's attempted second front was unfolding into a major debacle as the Imperial Japanese Army was not only winning, but inflicting heavily disproportionate casualties on their opponents.
It was soon clear that further resistance was hopeless and escape was attempted from the Japanese vise. With the aid of CCP guerrillas and local warlords, many NRA and warlord forces entrapped by the IJA managed to slip through in a retreat from the city, including a number of vital foreign trained soldiers and materiel assets. However the majority of the Chinese soldiers would not be so lucky, and were left to the mercies of Japanese treatment. With Shanghai lost, nearby Nanking was left vulnerable and Jiang Jieshi and the GMD's leadership soon realized as much and ordered a full evacuation of the city. And with the IJA's tempers flared after what was supposed to be a quick affair beginning on the 27th of June only to stretch out until the 10th of September, the CCP and GMD were keenly aware that anything left in Nanking was likely to suffer tremendously.
(To be continued)
Last edited:
I looked pretty intently at the rape of nanking. It is very much not good.That can't be good.
I made a discussion thread here to we can discuss how people feel about the political and economic system of the UASR.
So, because this thread has been going on for years and is now nearly 150 pages long- mostly of comments- I decided to hunt down all of the updates, not only the ones made by Jello but also the canonized fan subscription. I don't know if I caught them all (no pun intended
So without delay here's the VERY much needed index for this long-runner thread:
- A History of the Global Antifascist Struggle
- The Road to War
- Babylon: An Economic Anthology of the Second World War
- Operation Teutonic
- The Arsenal of Socialism
- The Siege of Leningrad
- Weapons of the Second World War
- Overview and Documentaries
- Foster and Churchill's date
- The War in the Pacific
- China in the Second world war
- Henry Ford the Arch-Traitor (Part 1)
- Henry Ford the Arch-Traitor (Part 2)
- Henry Ford the Arch-Traitor (Part 3)
- Gun Porn
- Operation Valkyrie: The Drive on Moscow
Odd question that came to mind. Does my Captain America piece count as canon?
As the inventor of the assembly line I wonder if people would forgive him for that at least.
I just realized. When the USSR takes over Eastern Europe will it be any different than OTL? Because in OTL that was one of the causes of the Cold War.
For one thing Stalin's not in charge of the process and there are going to be American troops marching into them along with the Soviets. That already greatly changes the flavor of the Soviet Union's advance into Eastern Europe.
Forgive his enthusiastic support of the Third Reich just because he invented the assembly line? I highly doubt it.