People don't really pay taxes. They give up their entire harvest and get back what they are owed bit by bit. If you refused to give it up, the Mide wouldn't flood your fields next year. This goes for any food grown in the rice bogs . Manoomin, wapato, cranberries, etc.
hmm that makes sense, and it makes stuff like wapato much less useful than I first thought it'd be. It could be useful later as various political structures become more equitable and they start getting taxes though.
Unfortunately, varieties of Apios Americana that increase bean yield would decrease tuber yield. You see the same thing with sweet potato varieties that increase leaf yield for greens. So, yes, any such varieties would be limited to the rich.

I haven't tasted them myself but what I've read on the internet seems to indicate the beans are not the best tasting either. Not terrible but not great. Meanwhile, the tubers routinely get praised as tasting similar to potatoes, sweet potatoes, and peanuts. So most production would be focused on the tubers because they are higher yielding and better tasting.
I think bede would be mostly used as a tuber crop.

I don't really like beans so a 'good' and 'bad' tasting bean just makes me confused, but I defo see other more established bean varieties in Mesoamerica being widely used among the Mishigami.
That's the idea (when we get to it). Sunflowers, corn, and bede will allow for the creation of dense upland societies. Those societies will be distinct from, and in conflict with, the lowland societies that depend on manoomin.
hmm I'd think those societies would be a lot more powerful considering that the common man should be wealthier and have more weapons tech available to them, with highland societies taking over a few of the lowland societies. I wonder would we see technology like heavy plows be developed in those regions too.
Its very likely. Though the cause and effect might be reversed. People identify with an Ojichaag or whatever and so paint it as a boundary marker. That boundary marker starts to function as heraldry. And so on.
yeah that makes sense. I was thinking that it'd go both ways especially for conquerers and the such who don't know much about the customs of the ppl they're conquering at first.
This is true. Though, IIRC, horses got to Africa quite late and were limited due to the tsetse fly.
tbf I was thinking more about the horses in the ME and North Africa despite their ancestors being nowhere near the ME.
 
hmm that makes sense, and it makes stuff like wapato much less useful than I first thought it'd be. It could be useful later as various political structures become more equitable and they start getting taxes though.

Its a fairly robust system, at least for lowland areas. I don't think it will collapse before European contact.

I think bede would be mostly used as a tuber crop.

I don't really like beans so a 'good' and 'bad' tasting bean just makes me confused, but I defo see other more established bean varieties in Mesoamerica being widely used among the Mishigami.

Blasphemy. Beans taste great. Right now, the *Menominee are using fuzzy beans and other native north american beans but they aren't a huge part of their diet. When the common bean arrives from mesoamerica, they'll be used more.

hmm I'd think those societies would be a lot more powerful considering that the common man should be wealthier and have more weapons tech available to them, with highland societies taking over a few of the lowland societies. I wonder would we see technology like heavy plows be developed in those regions too.

The common person might be wealthier but they won't be as organized. There's less incentive to come together when you don't have to build giant irrigation canal systems to grow your staple food.

The heavy plow is a really late invention. Its more of a middle ages thing, not an antiquity thing. Right now, the *Menominee are still plowing their fields with stone hoes. They aren't using animals to pull plows yet. OTL Cahokia was sustained without plows at all, IIRC. Just hoes. And the three sisters method is done by making small mounds. So no plows there either.

Plus, if you are flooded the field anyway, plowing is less important. The water will kill the weeds and bring sentiment to fertilize the field. There is less reason to do all that work to plow.

yeah that makes sense. I was thinking that it'd go both ways especially for conquerers and the such who don't know much about the customs of the ppl they're conquering at first.

Probably.

tbf I was thinking more about the horses in the ME and North Africa despite their ancestors being nowhere near the ME.

The Middle East isn't that far from Kazakhstan and the steppe. Plus, they already used donkeys before the introduction of horses, so they had some equine experience.
 
When is the next update, I can't find any TL this good

Thank you very much.

Regular updates are every Monday at 9-ish eastern time. The next one will deal with the formation of the Three Waters Confederacy. Supplemental chapters are sometimes published in between. I've usually put them out on Thursday but I've been considering changing that.
 
I am doing a little editing/retconning as we get further into geography.

In Chapter 11: Supply and Demand, while describing trade in the Mishigami I said:

Wine from Wequetong [Traverse City, MI], ceramics from the Meskwaki Valley [Fox River Valley, WI], salt from Onondagega [Syracuse, NY], silver from Kam [Thunder Bay, ON], copper from Minong[4] [Isle Royale in Lake Superior], spices, red pipestone, porcupine quills, birch bark, and slaves travelled these routes to be bought and sold across the Mishigami.

This should now read:

Wine from Wiikwetong [Traverse City, MI], ceramics from the Meskwaki Valley [Fox River Valley, WI], salt from Onondagega [Syracuse, NY], silver from Animikiing [Thunder Bay, ON], copper from Minong Island [4] [Isle Royale in Lake Superior], spices, red pipestone, porcupine quills, birch bark, and slaves travelled these routes to be bought and sold across the Mishigami.

I have decided to use the french orthography for Algonkian languages as often as possible, so I switched Wequetong for Wiikwetong. Kam was a filler name that I was going to change but forgot to do so. Animikiing should be the final name for *Thunder Bay, Ontario.

I have also made a number of minor grammatical edits throughout.

I have finished the next update. It will be published tomorrow morning on schedule. There will also be a supplemental this week.
 
Chapter 15: The Great Peacemaker
Chapter 15: The Great Peacemaker

Niswinibi Boodooswagon, the Three Waters Confederacy, was the largest and longest lasting of any classical period Budus. The Three Waters were Lake Gichigami [Lake Superior], Lake Inogami [Lake Michigan], and Lake Karegami [Lake Huron]. Even before the foundation of the confederacy, the peoples around these three great lakes had always had more religious and cultural similarities to one another than the other Menominee peoples.

1687784903001.png


Map of the Mishigami and Ohiyo Valleys in the Early Classical Period. The Three Waters Confederacy is colored in Red. [1]

The Confederacy’s founding is generally dated to between 250 and 200 BCE. In the same time period, the First and Second Punic Wars raged in the Mediterranean. Emperor Ashoka of the Mauryan Empire was converting to Buddhism. The first emperor of China was building a terra cotta army for his tomb.

The typical story of the Confederacy’s founding goes something like this. For as long as the three waters existed, the people on their shores had fought for control of the trade and resources in and around them. Cities were burned down. Fields went untilled as farmers were killed or went campaigning. Sunflowers were planted along every path and stream as soldiers died on the march. Wendigo went from town to town, causing chaos and feasting on the dead.

In all this destruction, only Sacred Mackinaw remained a place of peace. As the destruction continued this became more and more untenable. Some priests supported one Oodena over the others. Most wished to remain neutral.

Aandeg, the Mide and Sagamos of Mackinaw, tried to make peace between Baawatigong [Sault St. Marie, MI/ON] and Poonchikit [Green Bay, WI]. Both sides made extraordinary promises but were only deceiving each other. As Aandeg sailed back to Mackinaw Island, the fleets of the two cities attacked each other in the straits. This would come to be known as the First Battle of Sacred Mackinaw.

Both Baawatigong and Poonchikit blamed the other for starting the battle. The truth may never be known. At the very least, both sides agreed that once battle was joined neither one had been solely responsible for the death and destruction on the sacred island. Aandeg was killed and the temples on Mackinaw Island were damaged by both sides.

1687784944324.png


The Straits of Sacred Mackinaw[2]

In the aftermath, one voice spoke up, demanding peace between not just Baawatigong and Poonchikit but all the Oodena of the Three Waters. That voice was from Nipisii, a woman who had become a priest. In an unprecedented move, she was elected the new Mide, the first woman to hold the priesthood of Mackinaw.

The Sagamos and the Mide of the other cities considered an attack on sacred Mackinaw to be an unforgivable violation. One by one, Nipisii convinced each one to come to Mackinaw to talk peace.

They met in Mackinaw itself, in a temple dedicated to Asibikaashi, the Spider Grandmother, who symbolically protected everyone who entered from harm. To do violence in a temple Asibikaashi was sacrilege of the highest order. It had been damaged in the battle, underscoring the problem that needed fixing.

After much debate, rules for the Boodooswagon were agreed. These rules were called the Great Law of Peace. They represent the oldest known law code and constitution known from Minisia.

A Grand Council was made. The Nine Great Oodena would each have a single vote. The representatives of the Nine Great Oodena would gather every year at midsummer on the island of Mackinaw.

The Grand Council would continue to meet in the temple of Asibikaashi. It was kept in its damaged state so that everyone remembered why they spoke with words instead of warring with clubs. The damage also meant that winter would bring the bitter cold, placing a time limit on the meetings. In later years, if a group arrived in heavy furs, it signaled that they were willing to drag out negotiations as long as necessary.

Any disagreements between members would be mediated. If no agreement could be made, members would formally declare war on each other. Warfare would be limited, with their conduct subject to rulings by the Grand Council. Battles would take place at chosen sites and chosen times and would only be between zhimaaganish warriors.

At any time, either member could sue for peace. Both sides would agree to terms and the Grand Council would approve. Then, there would be peace. If the peace was broken without an attempt for mediation and a formal declaration of war, all members would join together to force a resolution.

Warfare between members of the Three Waters Confederacy became increasingly ritualized. As time went on, there were an increasing number of so-called “Mourning Wars”. These were wars fought to satisfy honor. Usually they were fought to avenge the death of warriors in the previous Mourning War. No territory exchanged hands. Honor and trade goods were all that victory brought. By the end of the classical period, many Mourning Wars were entirely stage managed. There were no or very few casualties and winners were known before battle was joined.

All members of the Three Waters Confederacy would use the same weights and measures, as approved by the Grand Council at Mackinaw. Taxes and tolls were agreed at the Grand Council. In times of famine or drought, all cities would pool their resources to avoid starvation. An attack on one member by an outsider would be considered an attack on all.

Future generations would deify Nipisii as the Great Peacemaker in a similar way to Medweginoonind. She was considered the perfect mediator and a servant of Asibikaashi. People would pray to her during negotiations or arguments. She was invoked with each new session of the Grand Council.

Next time, we will discuss the Middle Kingdoms of the Mishigami. But first, we will have a supplemental on the members of the Three Waters Confederacy.



[1] Three Waters Confederacy in Red. Kingdom of Gakaabikaang in orange. Kingdom of Cahokia in dark red. Kingdom of Miyamee in brown. Kingdom of Minesing in yellow. Ontario Confederacy in green. Black Swamp Confederacy in grey. Kingdom of Hoshalaga in pink. Miscellaneous city states in purple.
[2] Taken from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straits_of_Mackinac#/media/File:Straits_of_Mackinac_crx.jpg

Comments? Questions?
 
The Three Waters Confederacy sounds like a really interesting state, it sounds a lot more feudal then the empires that popped out in antiquity. I wonder how they'd react to enemy states and stuff like hordes tho.
 
And then maize agriculture enters the picture and suddenly the dominance of the Three Waters Confederacy is shattered with the appearance of new additions to the agricultural package that aren't so reliant on bogs/swamps to be highly productive. The end result I assume is a highly urban Mississippi drainage basin with domesticated animals, metalworking and writing.
 
And then maize agriculture enters the picture and suddenly the dominance of the Three Waters Confederacy is shattered with the appearance of new additions to the agricultural package that aren't so reliant on bogs/swamps to be highly productive. The end result I assume is a highly urban Mississippi drainage basin with domesticated animals, metalworking and writing.

You're not that far off.

But I wouldn't call the Three Waters Confederacy dominant. They are the biggest and most powerful polity in the Mishigami but they have essentially zero ability to conduct offensive operations. Its a defensive alliance and co-operative. Not an empire.
 
And then maize agriculture enters the picture and suddenly the dominance of the Three Waters Confederacy is shattered with the appearance of new additions to the agricultural package that aren't so reliant on bogs/swamps to be highly productive. The end result I assume is a highly urban Mississippi drainage basin with domesticated animals, metalworking and writing.
"Shatters" is a bit extreme, especially since
1l it will take a while for corn agriculture to fully develop
and 2) there's nothing stopping the Menominee from also growing corn in addition to manoomin

It will definitely change the dynamics between them and the middle Mississippi though.

Also, both these cultures do have metal working, its just that at this point its limited to shaping native copper. I expect that learning bloomery smelting, as it disseminates from contact with the norse, will be the bigger game changer. And keep in mind that the three waters confederacy sits on top of several huge iron ore deposits, in addition to whatever bog iron they can get from their natural environment
 
Just gave this a read. Quite fascinating and well structured too. I'm sure to some extent your periodization of Menominee history is borrowed from Meso-American historiography, but it's actually a refreshing decision given how many people attempt to categorize Native Americans by awkward Old World terms like Stone Age, Bronze Age, and so on. Using terms like pre-classic, classic, and post-classic simultaneously avoids looking at them through a foreign lens and also helps create something of a unified system for discussing Native Americans civilizations.
 
"Shatters" is a bit extreme, especially since
1l it will take a while for corn agriculture to fully develop
and 2) there's nothing stopping the Menominee from also growing corn in addition to manoomin

It will definitely change the dynamics between them and the middle Mississippi though.

Also, both these cultures do have metal working, it’s just that at this point it’s limited to shaping native copper. I expect that learning bloomery smelting, as it disseminates from contact with the norse, will be the bigger game changer. And keep in mind that the three waters confederacy sits on top of several huge iron ore deposits, in addition to whatever bog iron they can get from their natural environment

I think it’s more likely that the Norse will produce the iron and sell it. Iron was a long time spreading in Europe (taking 700 years going from Turkey to Denmark even with existing trade routes across Central Europe and the Balkans). So I think that it’s more likely that the Norse will simply sell iron bars to native smiths or even just selling tools.
 
Just gave this a read. Quite fascinating

Thanks.

and well structured too. I'm sure to some extent your periodization of Menominee history is borrowed from Meso-American historiography, but it's actually a refreshing decision given how many people attempt to categorize Native Americans by awkward Old World terms like Stone Age, Bronze Age, and so on. Using terms like pre-classic, classic, and post-classic simultaneously avoids looking at them through a foreign lens and also helps create something of a unified system for discussing Native Americans civilizations.

Yes, the periods were inspired by Mayan periodization. Stone Age, Bronze Age, etc. don't make much sense for North America ITTL. If anything, right now they are in the Chalcolithic or Copper Age.

I think it’s more likely that the Norse will produce the iron and sell it. Iron was a long time spreading in Europe (taking 700 years going from Turkey to Denmark even with existing trade routes across Central Europe and the Balkans). So I think that it’s more likely that the Norse will simply sell iron bars to native smiths or even just selling tools.

Yup. Technology transfer is a painful, slow, two-steps-forward and one-step-back process. Just because this TL was conceived around Vinland doesn't mean everything will be easy and clean.
 
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