The eagle's left head

and the popes may well hate him on sight for being Frederick's grandson...

I somehow doubt it. The popes proved to be very pragmatic: they only cared that the HRE and the Kingdom of Sicily are not ruled by the same person. During Frederick's they seem to have been content even if two different branches of the Hohenstaufens ruled the two realms. Don't forget that Rome was an enemy of Frederick's father and yet Innocent III stood as a guardian for young Frederick.

Having said that, Pope Martin was an old ally of Charles and the following Popes were pro-French as well. But eventually (post 1303) I think they realized there is nothing to be done.
 
I somehow doubt it. The popes proved to be very pragmatic: they only cared that the HRE and the Kingdom of Sicily are not ruled by the same person. During Frederick's they seem to have been content even if two different branches of the Hohenstaufens ruled the two realms. Don't forget that Rome was an enemy of Frederick's father and yet Innocent III stood as a guardian for young Frederick.
True only to an extent, neither Manfred or Conradin had any chance of ruling Germany as well as Sicily but this did not stop the papacy for aiming at their destruction.
 
True only to an extent, neither Manfred or Conradin had any chance of ruling Germany as well as Sicily but this did not stop the papacy for aiming at their destruction.

At least in the case of Manfred, I have read that the source of conflict with the papacy was his meddling with the Guelphs -Ghibelline conflict in northern Italy. When Charles was first contacted to conquer the Regno, he agreed not to meddle with north italian affairs.

A Hoehestaufen-Doukas-Vatatzis-Lascaris ruler of Sicily won't have the ability to exert much influence to the north. But in any case, for at least 20 years the Popes will prefer the Angevins.
 
At least in the case of Manfred, I have read that the source of conflict with the papacy was his meddling with the Guelphs -Ghibelline conflict in northern Italy. When Charles was first contacted to conquer the Regno, he agreed not to meddle with north italian affairs.
And then he meddled. Which of course given his connections was probably inevitable.
 
Part 3
Tagliacozzo, August 23rd, 1268

Conradin's knights seemed to carry all before them. They had driven the Angevins first and second divisions, then when they dispersed to pursue them and loot the French camp the third division of the French army that had remained hidden had ambushed them. It had been a complete disaster for Conradin, with his army destroyed and himself having to escape, only to be captured and handed over to Charles II.

Naples, October 29th, 1268

The executioner's axe fell. Conrad V, known as Conradin, was no more. Charles of Anzou could now feel secure in his new throne. Well mostly so. Manfred's eldest daughter Constance remained out of his dungeons, married to Peter the crown prince of Aragon. And his sister, the Greeks called her Anna instead of Constance, was secure in Constantinople.

Constantinople, December 25th, 1268

Alexandros Komnenos Doukas Vatatzes, had been in the mass for Christmas at Hagia Sophia, with his mother as had been the Imperial family and most of the Queen of Cities aristocracy. At nearly 14 years of age he already made something of a striking figure, apparently both he and his recently murdered cousin shared their grandfather's good looks. He made certain to show obvious and complete respect for the emperor. His mother had made certain that he understood from a young age two things. First that he was son, brother and grandson of emperors. And not just any emperors. The peasantry in the Asian themes, which he was prohibited from visiting, were already venerating his late father as a saint. And his grandfather was the stupor mundi. Second, second that he lived as long as Michael found him useful and did not find him a danger, or at least considered the risk less than the gain of keeping him around. If that calculation altered... Ioannes was still alive. Blinded, imprisoned in a fortress and liable to remain so for the rest of his life. Unless that nosy brat Andronikos thought otherwise when he came of age. Alexandros suppressed a shudder at the thought he could very well end up the same at any moment. The murder of his cousin by Charles made him more useful but possibly also more of a risk. At least the day's celebrations would end at some point and he could be back to his books...

Constantinople, November 8th, 1272

"Andronike, auguste, sy nikas!" The 13 year old just made co-emperor smiled at the crowd proclaiming him august and victorious. His father always more wily looked carefully at the crowd. He didn't have much difficulty noting the young Vatatzes making sure to shout at the top of his lungs. How much of that was real loyalty and how much pretension? Even he could not be certain. The youngster, he was almost 18 by now, was always correct, never giving any sign of disloyalty or ambitions for the purple of his own. Perhaps too correct, could anyone in Vatatzes circumstances really be so loyal? He did show admittedly a burning hatred for the Angevins, had his mother manage to direct all the hate on Charles? Well perhaps, after all he had killed her brother and nephew, what was him blinding Ioannes by comparison? He took one more look at the young man. He was not unsurprisingly in good company with the family of his own nephew Michael Tarchaneiotes, Michael thought well of the martial abilities of the young man who was apparently close friends with his eldest son and Michael's father in law the megas doux Alexios Philanthropenos, Michael had named his youngest son after him last year, seemed to concur. So both clever and a promising soldier. This could be of use. Or could be trouble...
 
Seems that the Emperor Palaiologos might not be fully taking into account what would be the potential consequences and even danger to his throne that would happen if he would need or choose to employ Alexandros against Anjou and he would survive and be successful in eliminating the French menace. But, possibly (from his perspective) perhaps creating one new and far more dangerous...
A Hoehestaufen-Doukas-Vatatzis-Lascaris ruler of Sicily won't have the ability to exert much influence to the north.
Well, initially would seem so... But, if he ever would come to find himself ruling Sicilia, (either by himself or for Constantinople) at the head of a victorious army, he, even if reluctantly, could be involved in the Italian political conflicts...
Finally, if it would ever happen, then, I'd guess, that would be possible, that if not butterflied away, that the Almogavars mercenaries, in TTL ,they either would be used/employed only in Sicilia/Italy and/or that they wouldn't set loose as IOTL, in Tracia and Greece...
 
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Seems that the Emperor Palaiologos might not be fully taking into account what would be the potential consequences and even danger to his throne that would happen if he would need or choose to employ Alexandros against Anjou and he would survive and be successful in eliminating the French menace. But, possibly (from his perspective) perhaps creating one new and far more dangerous...

Well, initially would seem so... But, if he ever would come to find himself ruling Sicilia, (either by himself or for Constantinople) at the head of a victorious army, he, even if reluctantly, could be involved in the Italian political conflicts...
Finally, if it would ever happen, then, I'd guess, that would be possible, that if not butterflied away, that the Almogavars mercenaries, in TTL ,they either would be used/employed only in Sicilia/Italy and/or that they wouldn't set loose as IOTL, in Tracia and Greece...
would the themes of Asia also be more loyel to the throne with a still surviving Laskarid
 
Seems that the Emperor Palaiologos might not be fully taking into account what would be the potential consequences and even danger to his throne that would happen if he would need or choose to employ Alexandros against Anjou and he would survive and be successful in eliminating the French menace. But, possibly (from his perspective) perhaps creating one new and far more dangerous...
It could. Is Michael in position for long-term planning? In OTL his actions were putting short term expediency ahead of problems 10 and 20 years down the road.
Well, initially would seem so... But, if he ever would come to find himself ruling Sicilia, (either by himself or for Constantinople) at the head of a victorious army, he, even if reluctantly, could be involved in the Italian political conflicts...
Michael? He's is involved already if only due to his conflict with the Anjou.
Finally, if it would ever happen, then, I'd guess, that would be possible, that if not butterflied away, that the Almogavars mercenaries, in TTL ,they either would be used/employed only in Sicilia/Italy and/or that they wouldn't set loose as IOTL, in Tracia and Greece...
One of the reasons the Catalan company found its way to Greece was that with the war of the Vespers over it wasn't wanted in Sicily...
would the themes of Asia also be more loyel to the throne with a still surviving Laskarid
They likely would. John III was still venerated as a saint in Asia Minor in the early 20th century even though he had not been proclaimed as such by the church.
 
Part 4
Lyon, June 29th, 1274

Mass was held together by Michael's representatives and their catholic counterparts, with the Greeks reciting fiilioque. Union of the churches had been proclaimed. It remained to be seen whether it would be accepted by the Orthodox world as well. After all pope Gregory might believe in it, but for Michael it was a purely political act...

Off Demetrias, 1275

The campaign was not going well for Imperial arms. The army of John Palaiologos the brother of the emperor had initially advanced rapidly in Thessaly, putting the capital of New Patras under siege. it looked as if it was only a matter of time for the town to fall. Then sebastokrator John Doukas had managed to escape the besieged town in the middle of night and had returned back with reinforcements from the Duchy of Athens, attacked the besiegers and severely defeated them. Along the army fleet of 73 ships under Alexios Philanthropinos, had also been sent and had anchored off Demetrias. There it had been attacked by a Latin fleet. While the Latins with 62 were fewer in number they had caught the Greeks by surprise and before the battle had put wooden towers on their ships giving them a height advantage. The Greeks had still fought hard, but were suffering heavy casualties and giving ground. It seemed that the battle would be lost... till John Palaiologos defeated army had showed up. The despot on learning of the coming battle had rushed to join Philanthropinos with the men he still had available and ferried them to the fighting ships. By nightfall what looked like a disaster for the Greeks had turned to a disaster for the Latins with only two of their ships managing to escape.

Alexandros Vatatzes had followed Philanthropinos in the campaign and had been in the thick of the battle, his first major fight. He would impress Philanthropinos and John Palaiologos enough to select him to carry the news of the victory to emperor Michael in the Venetian galley he had captured. There the young officer would ask to be allowed to return to the fighting immediately. Was it burning to fight as later chroniclers would claim? Was it cold calculation that he was safer fighting away from Constantinople, than remaining there and possibly raising Imperial suspicions? Was it both? None could tell as none can tell what Michael Palaiologos actually thought about Vatatzes at the time. But he did leave the captured galley to him.

Constantinople, September 1st, 1279

Michael and Andronikos Palaiologos vowed once more, in front of the papal legates , their loyalty to the union of the churches. Pope Nicholas had reason to doubt the sincerity of the vows while within the empire opposition to the union had reached open treason by several members of the Imperial family. Alexandros had not proclaimed himself against the union. But conveniently was away from the capital fighting, at the time of the visit of the papal legates. He tended to me more time away from Constantinople than not.

Berat, March 1281

The previous winter Hugo de Sully had led and Angevin army of two thousand knights and men at arms and six thousand infantry with ample siege machinery out of the coast to besiege Berat, the key to the via Egnatia. Michael had sent an army of his own under megas domestikos Michael Tarchaneiotes to lift the siege with strict orders to avoid pitched battle. With Michael had come his son in law none other than Alexandros Vatatzes. Tarchaneiotes had followed his orders. De Sully constantly harassed had proven more rash and had been captured in a skirmish with the Greeks. His army had rapidly disintegrated after this with the victorious Greeks driving the Angevins off most of Albania.

Michael Tarchaneiotes, with Vatatzes would hold a triumph in Constantinople. Then Alexandros at the head of a squadron of 4 galleys would be ordered west to the Ionian sea While not showing any significant disloyalty, he was starting to become increasingly popular in Constantinople. And the times were starting to become difficult for the empire. The new pope, Martin, was a creature of Charles of Anjou and had little compunction to excommunicate Michael and back Charles war against the empire.

Adriatic sea, April 7th, 1282

Alexandros had brought his ships out to sea, too early in the year, perhaps almost dangerously early. But the empire needed information, an early start would give him the benefit of surprise... and Imperial agents reached you easier in port. Grumbling over being at see in winter had been forgotten when a Venetian merchantman fleeing Sicily had been captured. Apparently a week earlier Palermo had revolted, thousands of French had been killed and the revolt was spreading. The rumors were too wild to be believed. But if true... this could be both danger and opportunity for him and he wasn't going to let that bastard Palaiologos decide for himself which of the two it was to be. He ordered his ships west...
 
But if true... this could be both danger and opportunity for him and he wasn't going to let that bastard Palaiologos decide for himself which of the two it was to be. He ordered his ships west...
Well, the presence of Alexandros in Sicily, with a force of his own, I'd suppose, that not only would make to spread even more the ongoing rebellion, but it would turn it in an earlier stage than OTL, from an anti French popular/'nationalist' rising to a dynastic fight or rather the continuation of the war of the Hohenstaufen and the Anjou over Sicily. While, not leaving to the Byzantine emperor other option than to accept the fait accompli and back the Alexandros initiative as one of his own and avoiding that, a contrary to OTL, (with the help of John of Procida and Byzantine tacit support/approbation), that ITTL, the Sicilian crown would be offered to Peter III of Aragon...
 
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What do the Sicilians actually know about Alexander? Why would they prefer him to Peter?

I would bet they know relatively little, other than his heritage and taking part in a major victory against the Angevins. But I would bet he will be seen by the Italo-Norman aristocracy as a significantly better choice than Peter. Alexander doesn't have a power base and he will be dependent on the local elites. It would be precisely the type of monarch the Sicilian barons hoped for.
 
Given the rather peculiar custom of the post-Komnenian aristocracy adding more and more prestigious matrilineal surnames into their family name,is the MC gonna try and add the Hohenstaufen name into the mix as well?
Well, the presence of Alexandros in Sicily, with a force of his own, I'd suppose, that not only would make to spread even more the ongoing rebellion, but it would turn it in an earlier stage than OTL, from an anti French popular/'nationalist' rising to a dynastic fight or rather the continuation of the war of the Hohenstaufen and the Anjou over Sicily. While, not leaving to the Byzantine emperor other option than to accept the fait accompli and back the Alexandros initiative as one of his own and avoiding that, a contrary to OTL, (with the help of John of Procida and Byzantine tacit support/approbation), that ITTL, the Sicilian crown would be offered to Peter III of Aragon...
I can actually see a three way war over Sicily between the forces of Alexandros,Peter, and Charles.
 
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I would bet they know relatively little, other than his heritage and taking part in a major victory against the Angevins. But I would bet he will be seen by the Italo-Norman aristocracy as a significantly better choice than Peter. Alexander doesn't have a power base and he will be dependent on the local elites. It would be precisely the type of monarch the Sicilian barons hoped for.
From what I recall reading on the Vespers, the Sicilians (the cities to be precise) initially wanted to be communes under the Pope - but once that's out, they kind of need someone who has the resources to fight against Charles retaking Sicily.

I'm not sure at all how being an Orthodox Greek messes with things. They were happy to take Michael's money and ask for more, but that's different than wanting a ruler from there.

Alexander is in for some tricky stuff as far as kingship.
 
Alexander doesn't have a power base and he will be dependent on the local elites. It would be precisely the type of monarch the Sicilian barons hoped for.
Perhaps, but it would be one that wo8uld have his own military forces and if he keeps his links with the empire, he would presumably still 'd be able to count/rely on the imperial support and help in administering his new rule at the empire's standard... So, I'd guess that Alexandros wouldn't be so dependent on their support as any other in his situation might be... Also, I'd guess that he wouldn't be so averse/prejudiced to recruit, train and to use commoners for his army at one extent than any other Western aristocrat/ruler of his time could be willing/able to do...

I can actually see a three way war over Sicily between the forces of Alexandros,Peter, and Charles.
Well, for this eventuality comes to happen the Aragonese King should first have the political will and later be willing to face the Byzantine Navy and/or the Naval forces deployed/assigned at Alexandros service alongside to the Anjou/French fleet. And/or that that the Aragonese royal Navy should be not only to be able to sneak around to disembark troops but, also, if necessary, to engage and defeat all of them.
 
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From what I recall reading on the Vespers, the Sicilians (the cities to be precise) initially wanted to be communes under the Pope - but once that's out, they kind of need someone who has the resources to fight against Charles retaking Sicily.
There was a window of about 5 months or so between the start of the war and Peter landing in Sicily.
I'm not sure at all how being an Orthodox Greek messes with things. They were happy to take Michael's money and ask for more, but that's different than wanting a ruler from there.
That's an interesting question. I don't think Alexandros would have any insurmountable problems from that, after all Theodore Palaiologos ended up ruling Montferrat in 1306 and beating off the Savoyard and Anjou claimants in the process. In comparison Vatatzes has two advantages Theodore did not have. First Sicily still has a significant Greek minority. Probably lower than the one third of the island, that it was in the twelfth century, research on the subject is surprisingly little for my tastes, but it's still there as of the late 13th century. Second the papacy very conveniently excommunicated Sicilians and backed the Anjou war against the Sicilians. Not the house of Barcelona, the commoners of Sicily. The Sicilians understandably did not take kindly to this...
Alexander is in for some tricky stuff as far as kingship.
Alexander has all of 4 ships, fewer than a thousand men most of them rowers. Peter has in Africa a much larger army and fleet...
 
That's an interesting question. I don't think Alexandros would have any insurmountable problems from that, after all Theodore Palaiologos ended up ruling Montferrat in 1306 and beating off the Savoyard and Anjou claimants in the process. In comparison Vatatzes has two advantages Theodore did not have. First Sicily still has a significant Greek minority. Probably lower than the one third of the island, that it was in the twelfth century, research on the subject is surprisingly little for my tastes, but it's still there as of the late 13th century. Second the papacy very conveniently excommunicated Sicilians and backed the Anjou war against the Sicilians. Not the house of Barcelona, the commoners of Sicily. The Sicilians understandably did not take kindly to this...
Maybe not insurmountable, but certainly a factor as far as him vs. Peter for the Catholic Sicilians.

Not sure how much the second will matter, but it's a thing.

Alexander has all of 4 ships, fewer than a thousand men most of them rowers. Peter has in Africa a much larger army and fleet...
Yeah. I suspect Alexander is not just going to get himself killed, but where from there - that is sure a thing.
 
Perhaps, but it would be one that wo8uld have his own military forces and if he keeps his links with the empire, he would presumably still 'd be able to count/rely on the imperial support and help in administering his new rule at the empire's standard... So, I'd guess that Alexandros wouldn't be so dependent on their support as any other in his situation might be... Also, I'd guess that he wouldn't be so averse/prejudiced to recruit, train and to use commoners for his army at one extent than any other Western aristocrat/ruler of his time could be willing/able to do...
Even by Byzantine standards... he's a Laskarid. Well not quite but both his father and his brother systematically supported the lower classes and recruited from them. Now this was standard policy of most capable Byzantine emperors but both John and Theodore took it quite a bit further apparently. John still had a cult in Asia Minor 8 centuries later...
Well, for this eventuality comes to happen the Aragonese King should first have the political will and later be willing to face the Byzantine Navy
are we talking about the Byzantine Navy in 1282 which has more than 80 active galleys plus numerous corsairs, raiding all the way to the Italian coast or the one 3 years down the road which does not exist as Andronikos has just taken the all too logical step of dismantling it. Who needs a Navy after all?
and/or the Naval forces deployed/assigned at Alexandros service alongside to the Anjou/French fleet. And/or that that the Aragonese royal Navy should be not only to be able to sneak around to disembark troops but, also, if necessary, to engage and defeat all of them.
 
I am curious why Michael would potentially think that backing the MC is in his best interest.MC is showing his true colors as an ambitious subordinate who is quite independent minded.He also has claims on Michael’s throne.With Peter,Alexandros and Charles duking it out with one another,would it really be necessary to find either of the parties?
 
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