The Dead Skunk
- Thread starter Lycaon pictus
- Start date
Stolengood
Banned
That's much later, though, and OTL. Not quite a good reason...
Also, am wondering: Can a baronet subsequently be made a baron, or is that impossible?
Lycaon pictus
Donor
The reigning monarch, usually in consultation with the prime minister, can elevate a baronet (or anybody, really) to the peerage.
Stolengood
Banned
I ask because Timothy Shelley was a baronet (yes, Percy's father), of Castle Goring in Sussex.
Do you see, when Charlotte ascends, the Queen being, I suppose, "Whiggish" enough to grant Timothy a hereditary seat, knowing that this will give Percy Shelley an automatic in into government when his father passes?
It would be a new creation, 1st Baron Y, which hed keep as well as his Nth Baronet X title.I ask because Timothy Shelley was a baronet (yes, Percy's father), of Castle Goring in Sussex.
Do you see, when Charlotte ascends, the Queen being, I suppose, "Whiggish" enough to grant Timothy a hereditary seat, knowing that this will give Percy Shelley an automatic in into government when his father passes?
But, ya, where a simple commoner might get knighted, a baronet might get a baronage. However, iirc there was a finite and specific limit on how many barons England could have, which is why so many Irish Barons were made. They, however, didnt have seats in the Lords. Scotland was kind of halfway in between, iirc, with a ?third? of their barons having seats.
Checkmate (3)
Lycaon pictus
Donor
Man, I've let things slide again. I will get back to the story, and in the meantime…
Although it would be two years before the United States National University was ready to accept a single student, President Adams and House Ways and Means Committee Chairman Calhoun were already arguing over the curriculum.
Not without reason. First, USNU was only the beginning of the President's plans for education. His vision — which was also the Democratic-Republican vision — was of secondary schools and universities (if not federal-run, then at least held to federal standards) throughout the nation. What Adams had learned during the establishment of Ferry Farm, Fort LeBoeuf and Sinepuxent was that it was a good idea to already have a pool of well-trained teachers to hire from by the time the school was ready to open its doors. Thus, USNU was intended in part as a "normal school" — that is, a school for the instruction of teachers, the first of its kind in the nation[1] and a powerful investment in the future. Adams favored a balanced curriculum of sciences, law, philosophy and the classics, while Calhoun was interested in training the next generation of engineers, scientists and businessmen — not to put too fine a point on it, the men who would finance the next war and build the tools to win it. (In this, it should be noted, he was opposing his own constituents. The postwar nationalist enthusiasm was wearing off, and the planters who dominated South Carolina politics were reluctant to part with their tax dollars for the purpose of educating other peoples' children.)
And the Dead Roses' long-term plans would affect some parts of the nation more than others. The Census Act of March 14, 1820 stated that the census would not only inquire whether the respondents were engaged in agriculture, commerce or manufacturing, but would also survey the state of literacy and school attendance.[2] It further mandated that the data be collected by the new Census Office.[3] But both Adams and Calhoun had a pretty good idea of what it would find — that the southern states lagged well behind the northern states in education. This was a disparity that needed to be corrected, and it would strongly affect the placement of future federal schools.
The problem was that USNU would be under the jurisdiction of Secretary of Domestic Affairs King. The man already chosen to head the university was Benjamin Silliman, a noted scientist — and, like King, an abolitionist. For these men to set the standards for the education of the South's teachers in philosophy and law would be simply unacceptable to Calhoun, and to a good many others. Ultimately, the chairman won this battle, and was able to return to his constituents in this election year and report that he had saved them all from a plague of abolitionist philosophers. The long-term effect that opening educational opportunities for lower- and middle-class whites would have on Southern society would be a subtler matter…
Charles Cerniglia, The Road to The Troubles: The American South, 1800-1840
[1] IOTL, the first normal school was established in Massachusetts in 1839.
[2] IOTL, this sort of data wasn't collected until 1840.
[3] Another thing that didn't happen until 1840 IOTL.
Although it would be two years before the United States National University was ready to accept a single student, President Adams and House Ways and Means Committee Chairman Calhoun were already arguing over the curriculum.
Not without reason. First, USNU was only the beginning of the President's plans for education. His vision — which was also the Democratic-Republican vision — was of secondary schools and universities (if not federal-run, then at least held to federal standards) throughout the nation. What Adams had learned during the establishment of Ferry Farm, Fort LeBoeuf and Sinepuxent was that it was a good idea to already have a pool of well-trained teachers to hire from by the time the school was ready to open its doors. Thus, USNU was intended in part as a "normal school" — that is, a school for the instruction of teachers, the first of its kind in the nation[1] and a powerful investment in the future. Adams favored a balanced curriculum of sciences, law, philosophy and the classics, while Calhoun was interested in training the next generation of engineers, scientists and businessmen — not to put too fine a point on it, the men who would finance the next war and build the tools to win it. (In this, it should be noted, he was opposing his own constituents. The postwar nationalist enthusiasm was wearing off, and the planters who dominated South Carolina politics were reluctant to part with their tax dollars for the purpose of educating other peoples' children.)
And the Dead Roses' long-term plans would affect some parts of the nation more than others. The Census Act of March 14, 1820 stated that the census would not only inquire whether the respondents were engaged in agriculture, commerce or manufacturing, but would also survey the state of literacy and school attendance.[2] It further mandated that the data be collected by the new Census Office.[3] But both Adams and Calhoun had a pretty good idea of what it would find — that the southern states lagged well behind the northern states in education. This was a disparity that needed to be corrected, and it would strongly affect the placement of future federal schools.
The problem was that USNU would be under the jurisdiction of Secretary of Domestic Affairs King. The man already chosen to head the university was Benjamin Silliman, a noted scientist — and, like King, an abolitionist. For these men to set the standards for the education of the South's teachers in philosophy and law would be simply unacceptable to Calhoun, and to a good many others. Ultimately, the chairman won this battle, and was able to return to his constituents in this election year and report that he had saved them all from a plague of abolitionist philosophers. The long-term effect that opening educational opportunities for lower- and middle-class whites would have on Southern society would be a subtler matter…
Charles Cerniglia, The Road to The Troubles: The American South, 1800-1840
[1] IOTL, the first normal school was established in Massachusetts in 1839.
[2] IOTL, this sort of data wasn't collected until 1840.
[3] Another thing that didn't happen until 1840 IOTL.
Last edited:
Stolengood
Banned
Yes, you have. Spending faaar too much time with that Icecap woman; come back to your true love!
Lycaon pictus
Good to see an update. Not sure I would say that Calhoun's idea was solely to fund and win a future war with Britain, although it may be his main idea. Such a program of widespread technical schooling after the USCW was I believe a major element in the countries rapid industrial development.
It is looking dangerously like the US will develop more rapidly than OTL, which is a potential problem for its neighbours. Might be a strong Jacksonian type reaction against a powerful central government but probably less likely.
Steve
Good to see an update. Not sure I would say that Calhoun's idea was solely to fund and win a future war with Britain, although it may be his main idea.
Such a program of widespread technical schooling after the USCW was I believe a major element in the countries rapid industrial development.It is looking dangerously like the US will develop more rapidly than OTL, which is a potential problem for its neighbours. Might be a strong Jacksonian type reaction against a powerful central government but probably less likely.
Steve
Stolengood
Banned
Well, without a Jackson to rally around, I doubt any sort of decentralization will truly take hold.
Admiral Matt
Gone Fishin'
The most dangerous part of US development is that it can't possibly develop rapidly enough to be a genuine problem for its neighbors.
Stolengood
Banned
Forgive me if this is a bridge too far, but... has John Keats gone to America with his brother George ITTL? If he goes around the same time as George (June 1818), John's infection with tuberculosis from his brother Tom subsequent to that point IOTL could conceivably be butterflied away.
Imagine... a longer-lived Keats, in Philadelphia or Baltimore, meeting Poe and Whitman. Imagine!
(EDIT: Does "search" function for thread... well, dammit.)
Imagine... a longer-lived Keats, in Philadelphia or Baltimore, meeting Poe and Whitman. Imagine!
(EDIT: Does "search" function for thread... well, dammit.
)Japhy
Banned
I know this is a bit late at this juncture to ask this but, when exactly did the Jeffersonian political party start calling themselves Democratic Republicans in this timeline?
That said glad to see this is still going, and I do certainly enjoy the bickering that the Domestic Affairs department is bound to keep creating.
That said glad to see this is still going, and I do certainly enjoy the bickering that the Domestic Affairs department is bound to keep creating.
Lycaon pictus
Donor
Forgive me if this is a bridge too far, but... has John Keats gone to America with his brother George ITTL? If he goes around the same time as George (June 1818), John's infection with tuberculosis from his brother Tom subsequent to that point IOTL could conceivably be butterflied away.
Imagine... a longer-lived Keats, in Philadelphia or Baltimore, meeting Poe and Whitman. Imagine!
(EDIT: Does "search" function for thread... well, dammit.
When did Tom get tuberculosis? If it was late enough, we might be able to save both of them.
That was their official name from the beginning, but they generally called themselves "Republicans" because it was shorter. That shade of mauve that the party uses for a symbol is still called "Republican Purple." The full name has come back into vogue because of John Randolph of Roanoke, who came up with the "Dead Rose" nickname in 1816.
Japhy
Banned
I'm sorry to have to say this but it wasn't their name at the start. The term "Democratic-Republicans" is one that historians put on it because the party was made up of multiple "Republican" clubs with a small number of clubs that declared themselves to be "Democratic". What they were called at the time generally was simply Republicans or Jeffersonians. The DR term only exists in contrast to the National Republicans (Who did use the name, but took the name because they actually took those clubs and organized them into a system) and the eventual GOP.
That said, just as the party organized itself into the National Republicans, it is certainly possible that after the Wellington misadventure that the party organizes itself under the DR banner.
Lycaon pictus
Donor
This would work. Given how decentralized the country was in the early years, I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that one of its political parties couldn't agree on a name.
Stolengood
Banned
Tom had tuberculosis before George left; I don't have a date.
Here's the information I got from Wikipedia; the site sources each sentence:
If you want, you can have Tom Keats's condition deteriorate more rapidly and have him die during John's walking tour in June, forcing Keats to do preparations for his brother's funeral and butterflying his July visit to the Isle of Mull entirely.
Admiral Matt
Gone Fishin'
So, again, this is fantastic.
But I've had one thought for a while now, and I thought I'd share it:
It seems like you're going too fast with immigration and culture. The first starving Italians arrive to do canal building, then three years later the US is exporting wine. Britain takes Florida immediately realizing it will be difficult to hold, but it's fine because four years later the Indians outnumber the "Indians," a huge variety of farming is well-established, and fusion cuisines are already popular among the local Europeans.
Honestly, nothing's inherently wrong with the pictures you paint....except the timestamps. I can't think of anything in the history of colonization that happened quite as quickly as you describe in such unfavorable circumstances.
But I've had one thought for a while now, and I thought I'd share it:
It seems like you're going too fast with immigration and culture. The first starving Italians arrive to do canal building, then three years later the US is exporting wine. Britain takes Florida immediately realizing it will be difficult to hold, but it's fine because four years later the Indians outnumber the "Indians," a huge variety of farming is well-established, and fusion cuisines are already popular among the local Europeans.
Honestly, nothing's inherently wrong with the pictures you paint....except the timestamps. I can't think of anything in the history of colonization that happened quite as quickly as you describe in such unfavorable circumstances.
Lycaon pictus
Donor
The wine thing is a little fast — I wondered about it myself. It just barely works if you assume that these particular immigrants didn't start out as canal builders but went straight into vine-growing, starting with native grapevines.
I should have made it clear that Florida cuisine is something that emerges later. The process Michael Sidhu describes doesn't all happen at once, and in fact most of it hasn't happened yet. The line "In this town, the Seminole Indians from up north were already outnumbered by the Indian Indians from India" refers to the city of Trafalgar, not all of Florida. (Although it won't be too long before it will be true of all Florida. Then the Seminoles will start wondering if this alliance is a pig in a poke.)
I should have made it clear that Florida cuisine is something that emerges later. The process Michael Sidhu describes doesn't all happen at once, and in fact most of it hasn't happened yet. The line "In this town, the Seminole Indians from up north were already outnumbered by the Indian Indians from India" refers to the city of Trafalgar, not all of Florida. (Although it won't be too long before it will be true of all Florida. Then the Seminoles will start wondering if this alliance is a pig in a poke.)
Yeah, I can see that. Still, though, the wine-making thing is definitely interesting and I'm sure that Admiral Matt, yourself and I aren't the only one who'd be fascinated to see a much earlier wine industry ITTL.