The Battle at Dawn: The first battle between the United States and Japan December 7-10, 1941

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marathag

Banned
The S-boats were 22-18 years old, had riveted hulls and despite the occasional success (like S-42),were suffering readiness issues. They also did not have the sustainment capabilities (like air blowers and fans) of the big Fleet boats.

OTOH, you can read reports of what the forward based S-Boats in the PI accomplished, before and after the main base at Cavite was lost.
_Pig Boats_ by Theodore Roscoe is and old, but good source.

Almost every goofy event in the Film _Operation Petticoat_, were from there, S-Boat and Fleet, all rolled into one boat.
In college I had a Professor who was on an S-Boat in 1941-42, crazy some of the stuff they did to keep operating.
 
Its an interesting illustration to the "How much could Pearl Harbor have gone differently if the USN had been on alert" argument that Force Z an alert, underway and AAA experienced unit, by 1941 levels, only managed to shoot down 3 Attacking IJN Aircraft. (With much better AA than Battleship Row, the 2pdr "Pom-Pom" may not have been great but it was better, and more numerous, than the USN's 1.1"/ 28mm. And HMS Repulse had nearly three times the heavy Dual-Purpose AA of a "Standard").

This TL may be overestimating just how much more effective the Flak of the US Pacific Fleet could become?
 
I'd say that the IJN's casualties are worse because there's a LOT more ships firing at them. Whilst the RN ships had better AA fits they also had issues with their ammo not working right and there was only a 6 ships not dozens which are supported by AA guns ashore that are engaging forces that have also had to run a gauntlet of fighters.

I'll agree and say the IJN's casualties are a bit high for the AA but it kind of bares out.
 

marathag

Banned
And the P-26s did not have radios.

Why the Radio Mast and rigging then?
latest
 

marathag

Banned
the P36s lack the superb dive speed of the Warhawks

Hawk 75
World record dive speed on 1939, it's one of the things that clinched the French orders, they wanted a craft that could powerdive from 22,000 to a pullout altitude of 7000, with a speed over 500mph. The test dive recorded 575mph, the mechanical limit of the on board recorder. They wanted a fighter that could follow a Stuka in a dive.
Suited_up.jpg

Note: didn't go that fast, it's assumed compressibility bumped the readings.
But the P-36A or C could dive just as well as the P-40B.
One of the problems with both the Model 75 and Model 81, was those high speed dives would ripple skins and bend spars, the follow on Model 87 (P-40D) had an even stronger structure, that added weight it really didn't need
 
Its an interesting illustration to the "How much could Pearl Harbor have gone differently if the USN had been on alert" argument that Force Z an alert, underway and AAA experienced unit, by 1941 levels, only managed to shoot down 3 Attacking IJN Aircraft. (With much better AA than Battleship Row, the 2pdr "Pom-Pom" may not have been great but it was better, and more numerous, than the USN's 1.1"/ 28mm. And HMS Repulse had nearly three times the heavy Dual-Purpose AA of a "Standard").

This TL may be overestimating just how much more effective the Flak of the US Pacific Fleet could become?

The two British ships had only 4 destroyers as escorts. Two of those were older destroyers lacking duel purpose main batteries. The Repulse was poorly armed with AA, while the Prince of Wales suffered an early hit that took out power to most of theirs. Basically 6 gun platforms, all inadequately protected with AA and no fighter cover. They were attacked by 51 level bombers and 27 torpedo planes and knocked down exactly 3 of them.

(Prince of Wales--- 8 duel 5.25 inch turrets, 8 quad 40 mm Pom Poms, all electrically powered)
(US Standard BBs- 8 to 10 5 inch single mounted 5 inch guns, 8-10 1.1 inch guns, Several 50 caliber machine guns on fixed mounts). None are electrically powered)
(all American destroyers have duel purpose guns, and most are equipped with at least 3 x 5/38 turrets plus several heavy machine guns and at least one 1.1 inch mount)

There are 7 battleships, 4 cruisers, and numerous (38) destroyers and destroyer minelayers/minesweepers that are operational and able to move at Pearl Harbor (the rest are down for engineering repairs or in dry dock and can't move). Plus other ships with varying degrees of AAA protection. Historically, discounting the 9 shot down by fighters, 2 shot down by fixed Army flak guns, they got 18 of the attackers and 20 more are written off when they return to their ships. The American battleships have more AAA guns than the British ships do. They shot down 5 of the torpedo planes in the first 10 minutes of the attack in spite of total surprise.

At worst, not moving any ships (as in this timeline) to free up firing arcs, and just assuming all the guns are manned and ammunition is freely available they should at least double the number of torpedo planes shot down, probably triple that number (so 15 instead of 5 out of 40) and bag a few of the level bombers (which did suffer some damage, several were write offs historically). Assume roughly one aircraft written off for every 1.1 planes shot down.

If we toss in the Army guns that were supposed to be at the airfields and at the base instead of parked at Schofield Barracks and Fort Shafter, we can add in a few more.

American flak was highly murderous. Even at Coral Sea, Midway and the early battles off Guadalcanl the Japanese were taking severe losses from American flak... as much as 30-60% of their attacking force even before the widespread deployment and availability of the 40 mm gun and 5 inch /38 with the proximity fuse. Japanese planes were highly vulnerable to damage, particularly the carrier planes used early in the war.

Basically the situation was substantially different between the loss of the British ships and Pearl Harbor. Denser flak coverage makes all the difference in the world.

It should also be noted that the 3 BBs engaged off the south coast of Oahu had 2 modern CL with them (8 x 5 inch 38 turrets each) plus 11 destroyers (all with duel purpose 5 inch 38), and all had free firing arcs. They were engaged by 20 dive bombers that survived the fighters. Off Guadalcanal this would have been nearly a total wipeout for the Japanese.

I also had fewer losses in the dive bomber attack against Hickam and the Fleet Docks/Drydock. This takes into account that fewer ships are present, many of them have AAA that is a least severely masked and only the Army flak was available. You will not that most of the Japanese aircraft shot down in the Third Wave were lost to fighters.

The vulnerability of torpedo planes in low level attacks against dense flak is well known. The level bombers are only flying at 10,000 feet on a predictable flight path. Both would take heavy damage to flak in those instances.
 
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marathag

Banned
American flak was highly murderous. Even at Coral Sea, Midway and the early battles off Guadalcanl the Japanese were taking severe losses from American flak... as much as 30-60% of their attacking force even before the widespread deployment and availability of the 40 mm gun and 5 inch /38 with the proximity fuse. Japanese planes were highly vulnerable to damage, particularly the carrier planes used early in the war.

WWII report on USN AAA during the war.
http://web.archive.org/web/20131108...y/online/Antiaircraft_Action_Summary_wwii.htm
CONFIDENTIAL [DECLASSIFIED]

Information Bulletin · No. 29

Antiaircraft Action Summary · World War II
October 1945
Headquarters of the Commander in Chief
UNITED STATES FLEET


UNITED STATES FLEET HEADQUARTERS OF THE COMMANDER IN CHIEF NAVY DEPARTMENT WASHINGTON, D.C.

8 OCTOBER 1945

CONFIDENTIAL

Antiaircraft Action Summary October 1945 is issued for the information of the Naval service.
 
WWII report on USN AAA during the war.
http://web.archive.org/web/20131108...y/online/Antiaircraft_Action_Summary_wwii.htm
CONFIDENTIAL [DECLASSIFIED]

Information Bulletin · No. 29

Antiaircraft Action Summary · World War II
October 1945
Headquarters of the Commander in Chief
UNITED STATES FLEET


UNITED STATES FLEET HEADQUARTERS OF THE COMMANDER IN CHIEF NAVY DEPARTMENT WASHINGTON, D.C.

8 OCTOBER 1945

CONFIDENTIAL

Antiaircraft Action Summary October 1945 is issued for the information of the Naval service.

Looking at the report, it looks like an overestimate by the Navy (they claim 43 shot down at Pearly Harbor, got around 18). So roughly 50% overestimate.

That is still pretty good though
 
Actually the 5.25-inch turrets of PRINCE OF WALES were hydraulic. And the RN dived on her postwar as they were curious to find out why they failed so quickly. It was discovered that if you're going to use hydraulics you might not want to put the lines just inside the hull where torpedo attacks will shatter them and make them useless...
 
the instructive example of the effectiveness of British AA is the Battle of Crete

the British had several groups of ships organized as follows:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Crete_order_of_battle#Naval_forces

they faced roughly 120 Dive Bombers and 150 level bombers (taking into account servicability) flying 2-3 sorties a day. No torpedo bombers were used by the Axis

excluding the nearly 200 transport aircraft shot down or wrecked beyond repair attacking Crete itself the Germans lost about 75 aircraft (all to flak as no significant British fighter cover) attacking British warships, and a similar number as write offs.

RN losses
4 cruisers and 6 destroyers sunk.
1 aircraft carrier, 2 battleships, 4 cruisers, 2 destroyers damaged

most of the British destroyers actually ran into ammunition shortages after the first day of the battle

Compare that to my timeline estimates (2 BB sunk, 4 damaged), 4 cruisers damaged, 3 DD sunk, 1 damaged, 5 other ships sunk or damaged

17 torpedo bombers (out of 40), 6 (out of 50) level bombers, 4 dive bombers (out of 21) fleet docks, 10 (out of 28) against Task Force 1 (BBs and 16 other ships) or a total of 37 aircraft downed by flak (and about 30 write offs and many of the rest damaged)(oops, forgot torpedo bombers hit as they flew over Task Force 15 with its 2 modern CL and several destroyers, so make that roughly closer to 23 torpedo bombers lost to flak for a total of 43)

compared to 18 in the OTL attack

That seems very reasonable to me
 
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Actually the 5.25-inch turrets of PRINCE OF WALES were hydraulic. And the RN dived on her postwar as they were curious to find out why they failed so quickly. It was discovered that if you're going to use hydraulics you might not want to put the lines just inside the hull where torpedo attacks will shatter them and make them useless...

yeah, ouch
 
Also the 5.25 was not really the best AA gun for the ship, the turret was cramped and without a power assisted loading it was tiring to load and fire at high rates of fire. Also neither the PoW or Repulse had a full fit of 20mm guns and few 40mm guns either.
 
the instructive example of the effectiveness of British AA is the Battle of Crete

the British had several groups of ships organized as follows:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Crete_order_of_battle#Naval_forces

they faced roughly 120 Dive Bombers and 150 level bombers (taking into account servicability) flying 2-3 sorties a day. No torpedo bombers were used by the Axis

excluding the nearly 200 transport aircraft shot down or wrecked beyond repair attacking Crete itself the Germans lost about 75 aircraft (all to flak as no significant British fighter cover) attacking British warships, and a similar number as write offs.

RN losses
4 cruisers and 6 destroyers sunk.
1 aircraft carrier, 2 battleships, 4 cruisers, 2 destroyers damaged

most of the British destroyers actually ran into ammunition shortages after the first day of the battle

Compare that to my timeline estimates (2 BB sunk, 4 damaged), 4 cruisers damaged, 3 DD sunk, 1 damaged, 5 other ships sunk or damaged

17 torpedo bombers (out of 40), 6 (out of 50) level bombers, 4 dive bombers (out of 21) fleet docks, 10 (out of 28) against Task Force 1 (BBs and 16 other ships) or a total of 37 aircraft downed by flak (and about 30 write offs and many of the rest damaged)(oops, forgot torpedo bombers hit as they flew over Task Force 15 with its 2 modern CL and several destroyers, so make that roughly closer to 23 torpedo bombers lost to flak for a total of 43)

compared to 18 in the OTL attack

That seems very reasonable to me

I'd add to this the late February IJN bomber attack on the USS Lexington on its aborted rid on Rabaul. Two squadron groups tried to make simultaneous attacks on the Lexington. One group was able to come within AA range of the Lexington. Of nine bombers three (33%) were credited to the ships AA. One was a shared credit with a CAP fighter bringing the possible AA score to 44%. Five others were destroyed or run off by the CAP. Only two of the bombers were able to get close enough for a credible bomb release, both missed & both aircraft went into the water.

Note that these two squadrons had participated in the attacks on 'Force Z' in December.
 
American Counterattack December 7 1941
American Counterattacks December 7
Three American formations are in route toward where the Japanese fleet is assumed to be. The Army aircraft are well in the lead, but also are of on their heading and are forced to do a box search. Thus the Marine Dauntless dive bombers arrive at 845 Hours. The Japanese have 36 fighters up as a combat air patrol and they swarm all over the Marine aircraft, shooting 17 of them down and only 5 manage to make a combat dive, where 2 are blasted apart by Japanese flak. Only 3 manage to drop their bombs, and all three miss the Kaga, the biggest target in the Japanese fleet. One is then caught escaping by the Zeros and both survivors escape but only one makes it back to Oahu where it lands at Haleiwa, while the other ditches on the way home. Only 1 Marine of the 44 who took part in the attack survives, the pilot who made it to Haleiwa, and his gunner is dead in the seat behind him. His aircraft is a write off.

A B17 spots the Japanese fleet next at 0907 hours, and makes an attack after providing a position report. It too is spotted by the Japanese CAP, and the Japanese learn that the B17 is a very tough aircraft, as while it is shot to pieces it manages to escape where it ends up making an acceptable landing at Wheeler Field (in that everyone survives the landing) but the wreckage is pushed off the runway. By a miracle all of the crew survives although only two remain unwounded (the pilot and the flight engineer). Their bombing attack is a failure however, as three bombs land in the water well to the starboard of the Kirishima. The crew claims two hits on a battleship and that it was sinking, as flames and flashes were very visible from the Japanese ship.


However, the position report is picked by by the A20s, who are about to return home, and the Vindicators, who are approaching the Japanese fleet as well. The Army bombers come in at 300 miles an hour in a shallow dive and pick the first carrier they see, the Akagi at 0918 hours. The Army bombers are far faster than the Japanese expect, and the Japanese fighters only have a 30 mile an hour speed advantage over them. Three of the fighters make the mistake of making a head on attack against the A20s, and learn the hard way that the Americans have four fixed .30 caliber machine guns forward. One is blasted apart, and the other two are damaged and forced to break off. The Japanese manage to shoot down 8 of the bombers in the air battle that follows but 5 of them manage to drop their bombs but miss their target. However, heavy strafing does cause numerous casualties aboard the Japanese ship as all 5 bombers concentrate their fire on the Akagi's island. The bridge and flag bridge are both swept by machine gun rounds and Nagumo and several of his staff are killed. The lone surviving A20, badly shot up, ditches on its return home resulting in the deaths of both crew members.

However, the 2 Marine Vindicator's reach the Japanese fleet at that moment, and they dive on the first carrier they see, the Zuikaku. With the Japanese attention firmly focused on the Army bombers, they are not even spotted until they pull out of their dives and both place their 1,000 pound bombs squarely on the flight deck of the Japanese carrier. The forward elevator is blasted into wreckage by one bomb, while the other penetrates the flight deck and explodes in the hanger below, wrecking it and starting a serious fire that destroys the spare aircraft that were being assembled and killing dozens of men. Although the fires are put out within 30 minutes, the Zuikaku is no longer available for flight operations and its aircraft are recovered by the other carriers. Both bombers escape making it into clouds before they can be swarmed by the Japanese fighters and both manage to make it home.


The Japanese finish recovering their aircraft 180 miles north north west of Oahu at 1030 hours and then begin their retirement at 24 knots heading west. Meanwhile, Major Landon and his 11 B17s arrive at Hickam Field, which is still burning when they land. Army personnel hurriedly refuel, arm and bomb up the aircraft and all 11, along with the 5 B17Ds that are available take off at 1400 hours heading for the most likely Japanese position. At 1700 hours they find the Japanese fleet, and bombing from 20,000 feet, surround the Japanese warships with splashes but score not a single hit. The Japanese fighters fail to reach altitude before the American bombers are long gone and break off the pursuit.

At 1810 hours, with dusk rapidly approaching, the American submarine S-23 is nearly run down by the Japanese fleet but manages to fire all its forward torpedo tubes at the nearest carrier, the Soryu. Of four torpedoes, three actually hit the carrier and two of them detonate. A chain reaction of explosions results and after 20 minutes it is clear that the ship is doomed. Two destroyers are left behind to take off survivors and the rest of the Japanese fleet steams on into the gathering darkness. The S-23 is attacked by Japanese destroyers for 20 minutes but escapes unscatheed. The Soryu goes down with 432 men, and takes with it all of its aircraft as well.

With that the first day of battle between the Imperial Japanese Navy and the United States Navy comes to an end.

 
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Japanese carrier aircraft losses December 7 1941
Japanese aircraft losses Pearl Harbor Raids
31 A6M Zero fighters, 56 D3A Val Dive Bombers, 68 B5N Kate Torpedo Bombers (155 of 360, or 43%)

Japanese aircraft damaged beyond repair or jettisoned due to need for clear fight deck
8 A6M Zero fighters, 50 D3A Val Dive Bombers, 5 B5N Kate Torpedo/Level Bombers

the Japanese have 3 of each aircraft type on each carrier partially disassembled and are ready for use by late afternoon December 7.

Fleet Combat Air patrol
6 Zeros each carrier (36 total), spotted and launched after Third Wave departs (1 shot down from Hiryu, 2 damaged from Hiryu)

lost aboard Zuikaku
3 Val dive bombers, 3 Zero fighters, 3 Kate torpedo bombers (destroyed in hanger fire)(includes spares lost)

lost aboard Soryu
9 Val dive bombers, 15 Zero fighters, 15 Kate torpedo bombers (3 Zero fighters were in the air at the time)(includes spares)

Total aircraft lost December 7 all causes 268 aircraft.
 
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Jeez, that is not good for the Japanese at all.

Also correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't S-23 undergoing refit in California or something like that at this time?
 
Yeah, MacArthur can kiss his chances of being promoted goodbye when it gets out that the Pearl Harbor defenders and their supporters sank a Japanese carrier and damaged several others...
 
Surviving Hawaiian commanders to MacArthur: "Yeah, and while you kept your planes down, we were sinking an enemy flattop!"
 
level bombing against ships underway is terribly inaccurate

the S boats had the older mark 10 torpedoes, which generally worked although they had problems with the depth settings as well.

The Soryu and Hiryu were both light carriers, with inferior torpedo protection and flotation compared to the bigger fleet carriers (much like the USS Wasp) and Unryo an improved version based on the Soryu and Hiryu, was sunk by a single American torpedo launched by a submarine in 1944

The Americans have discovered that fighter protection is vital for strike missions

More over the next week...
 
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