That Wacky Redhead

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: After 1900' started by Brainbin, Nov 18, 2011.

  1. joea64 Unabashed Edwardian Era fanboy

    Feb 14, 2007
    A few miles south of Henry House Hill
    To me, Gene Wilder is still the definite Willy Wonka (I saw the film in first-run as a kid), so I'm glad he keeps the role ITTL.

    Hope you can expand some on what the reaction TTL in the U.S. is to "UFO" as audiences compare it to Trek.

    Not surprised "THX-1138" flopped ITTL too. From what I've heard of it, I don't think it'd be much of a go in any TL much like ours. :p Due to the far more SF-friendly zeitgeist ITTL, I'm pretty sure "Star Wars", in some form, does eventually get made and does become a big hit - perhaps it even comes along earlier than OTL - but Lucas will have to play ball with the studios to make it happen.

    Will "Planet of the Apes" make it to the small screen ITTL too? I'm pretty sure that the film series got going just before or just after the POD, and, with (you guessed it) the more receptive climate for genre films, was as popular or more ITTL as IOTL. I wonder if the TV program might even actually last at least a little longer...

    You asked for my comments on the ladies of '70's TV, right? To be candid, I personally always found the women of '60's and '80's TV to be hotter, for the most part; even though I hit puberty in the late 1970's, I never liked the whole "jiggle" thing. I'm hard of hearing, and got one of the first closed-captioning units (back when they were standalone add-ons to TV's rather than being built into the circuitry); my mother always used to tease me that I got CC because I wanted to watch "Three's Company", which was always good for making me splutter indignantly (I made much of spluttering at the time that it was one of the stupidest things I'd ever seen, though in retrospect the late John Ritter did some of his best and funniest work on that show). The '70's actresses who "floated my boat", as it were, were in the movies.

    (I should add, by the way, that my knowledge of U.S. '70's TV has a great big yawning three-year-wide gap in it, from 1974 to 1977, as I was living on Okinawa during that time period. I was watching either old '60's and early-'70's reruns on Armed Forces TV - which is where I really developed my Trek fandom - or Japanese TV, which is where I got my introduction to anime, especially the classic giant-mecha shows created by Go Nagai and others during that period.)

    OK, there's a big exception to my above dictum: Lynda Carter in "Wonder Woman". YOWZA! With the greater success of genre TV, I would expect that WW will be made pretty much as OTL, though I don't know if Carter will get her big break on that show (originally, as you know, Cathy Lee Crosby had the role, which is flat-out silly; she looks absolutely nothing like Diana, whereas Lynda is a dead ringer.)

    Oh, and by the way: '70's fashions mainly sucked rocks. Take it from someone who lived through that decade, and actually (shudder shudder) dressed like a Saturday Night Fever disco lizard a time or two in high school.
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2012
  2. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

    Apr 20, 2005



    It seems to me that Star Wars is actually pretty perturbable in terms of actual characters and plot, but I agree that something will be made by Lucas that has some of the same motifs and similar sounding names as OTL's Star Wars, but it will not be Star Wars as we understand it (or even as Lucas understands it).

    It is my belief that Planet of the Apes still will be made into a TV series, though I don't know that it would run any longer than OTL.

    I didn't think it was really mine, either, but I have noticed some old cruses while reviewing Sci-Fi shows of the era, so it is possible I will find more. I shall take a stab at it as you are having difficulties.:) But first...

    Agree in all particulars here! Lynda Carter will ALWAYS be Wonder Woman, period, end of quote, and she is HOT!!!

    And now, for my review of the ladies of the 1970s (some overlap with late 1960s unavoidable, but mostly TV, though I may venture into movies, we'll see). Note these will be from shows I recognize and the tastes may only be my own and thus will clearly miss some that are notable to others (maybe if I know someone obvious I will throw in).

    Elizabeth Mongomery from Bewitched
    Goldie Hawn from Laugh-In
    Marlo Thomas from That Girl
    Susan Dey from The Partridge Family
    Angie Dickinson from Police Woman
    Marcia Strassman from Welcome Back, Kotter
    Lindsay Wagner from The Bionic Woman
    Farrah Fawcett from Charlie's Angels
    Kate Jackson from Charlie's Angels
    Jaclyn Smith from Charlie's Angels
    Cheryl Ladd from Charlie's Angels
    Tanya Roberts from Charlie's Angels
    Pamela Sue Martin from The HardyBoys/Nancy Drew Mysteries
    Roz Kelly from Happy Days
    Lynda Carter from Wonder Woman
    Lauren Tewes from The Love Boat
    Maren Jensen from Battlestar Galactica
    Jane Seymour from Battlestar Galactica
    Laurette Spang from Battlestar Galactica
    Linda Gray from Dallas
    Victoria Principal from Dallas
    Loni Anderson from WKRP in Cincinnati
    Jan Smithers from WKRP in Cincinnati
    Joyce DeWitt from Three's Company
    Suzanne Somers from Three's Company
    Pam Dawber from Mork & Mindy
    Donna Pescow from Angie
    Marilu Henner from Taxi
    Catherine Bach from Dukes of Hazzard
    Stefanie Powers from Hart to Hart
    Lynn Redgrave from House Calls
    Erin Gray from Buck Rogers in the 25th Century
    Pamela Hensley from Buck Rogers in the 25th Century

    Okay, that's enough - I didn't get into movies yet - I also tried to avoid girls who were cute when I was like 7 or 8, but really are too young in the shows they were in to be considered 'hotties' of the 70s, though they might have grown into that role in the 80s. I am sure I missed some, but you all can help...

    Agreed, they sucked much.
  3. phx1138 Bocagiste troll

    Jun 20, 2009
    Charlie Townsend's guest house
    I had the same problem at first. Have you seen the movie? She makes you believe it.:cool: And was a fair hottie, too.:cool: (Which I find a bit strange,:confused: 'cause I've always preferred brunettes.)
    Unquestionably. Some of that's going to depend on who the producer is. What I wonder is, could we see Lucas' version of *"Destination Moon"? That was Kubrik's claimed intent for "2001". So, could the producer go for harder SF, less space opera, but high budget?:cool::cool:
    Never did it for me...:confused:
    On sheer hotness, I'd agree on Elizabeth, Cheryl,:cool::cool: Maren, Laurette, Victoria, Catherine, & Erin, with honorable mention for Lauren Tewes & Pam Hensley.

    I'd add:
    Charlene Tilton ("Dallas"):cool::cool:
    Valerie Bertinelli:cool::cool::cool: (the only reason I actually watched "ODaT":p)
    Gretchen Corbett ("Rockford")
    Tina Louise (not that I ever watched "Gilligan's Island"; AFAIK, we never got it)
    Linda Kelsey (more the character, I think)
    Sheree Wilson
    Susan Howard (if she's who I think; I just loved that accent:p)
    Audrey Landers (Judy too)
    Adrienne Barbeau ("Maude")

    & somebody who IMO should've gotten more work, Pamela Bowman (who only did one episode of "The Hitchhiker on cable, AFAIK:()

    Some others were deeply cute, but a little later; I'll follow Glen & limit to adults, or this could get a bit creepy.:eek:

    (It depresses me how poorly I recall their faces & names...:(:()
  4. joea64 Unabashed Edwardian Era fanboy

    Feb 14, 2007
    A few miles south of Henry House Hill
    Hmmmm. I will have to issue some more qualifications to my perhaps precipitate blanket denunciation of 1970's beauties. ;)

    Angie Dickinson: Let us just say that in "Dressed To Kill", she made taxicab backseats the loci for many an overheated teenage boy's fantasies. Confession: I sneaked in, at 16, to see Angie being done in that cab. ;):eek:
    Erin Gray and Linda Gray: Mmmmm yes, fantasy objects for hot older women and eager younger boys. *ahem* *blush*
    Jane Seymour: double ditto. *even deeper blush*

    *providential salvation* But what happens to Battlestar Galactica ITTL> Given that George Lucas is in a deeper hole here and must suck himself to the studio bigwigs in order to get Star Wars made, will the impetus be there for BSG to get going, even with a Sf-friendly climate?
  5. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

    Apr 20, 2005
    I've seen the movie - we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

    Naw - after he makes TTL's American Graffiti (which, unlike Star Wars, isn't highly perturbable IMO, this is his homage to his own youth and a vanishing culture - here he has a clear idea and the will and it will still be a great movie) he is likely to either go on to do Apocalypse Now or go directly to trying to get a Space Fantasy of some sort made - I think even if he does go through with Apocalypse Now he will try, and in fact be more likely to succeed with two movies that will succeed (IMO) under his belt. We're going to see Lucas try and get some Star Wars like thing made.

    And the fact that you said you even prefer brunettes and still don't get it confuses me more! Again, we shall have to agree to disagree on this one.


    I thought of both, but my first run through was worried they were too young in the 1970s, but after you listed them I went back and checked their ages, and by the end of the 1970s would be adults.

    All reasonable additions, though Tina Louise from her post-GI works for this purpose.

    Though Dallas started in the 1970s, she didn't join the show (or do any acting I can see) until the 1980s, so she will have to be classed as 80s babe.

    Reasonable additions.

    Have to take your word on that one, though if we're going to do one off appearances in the 1970s, I'm adding Markie Post for her appearance in the first season of Buck Rogers. Might as well throw in Jamie Lee Curtis as well.

  6. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

    Apr 20, 2005
    Yep - I think part of the problem is some of the late 1970s shows overlapped into the 1980s and might be remembered more that way, and some of these women weren't in their most well known spots in their 1970s appearances, but others, yeah, we just weren't thinking!

    You know, I never actually saw that movie...

    Erin Gray first season of Buck Rogers for me, boy! You can keep Linda, I wasn't that big into Dallas.

    I'll triple that ditto, sir!!!

    *providential salvation* But what happens to Battlestar Galactica ITTL> Given that George Lucas is in a deeper hole here and must suck himself to the studio bigwigs in order to get Star Wars made, will the impetus be there for BSG to get going, even with a Sf-friendly climate?[/QUOTE]

    I think we are going to see an earlier incarnation of BSG based off of the success of Star Trek rather than Star Wars - but let us pray that it still gets the name change and isn't called Adam's Ark!:eek:
  7. Brainbin Kingpin of the Cultural Cartel

    Jul 26, 2009
    The British Empire
    More discussion is always a good thing, however lecherous the subject matter might be. Nevertheless, it merits more responses!

    That may well be, but "I like them" was indeed the justification That Wacky Redhead gave for keeping Star Trek and "Mission: Impossible" going, despite the seemingly prohibitive costs of doing so. And to think, IOTL, she gave all that power up for "Here's Lucy". Alas...

    They kept "The Trouble with Tracy" going for 130 episodes. As far as triumphs of quantity over quality go, you can't top that!

    Remember: in Hollywood, success breeds imitation :D

    Including, apparently, Battlestar Galactica - the development of which you'll be hearing about in more detail later on. There were so many wonderful suggestions from all of you that if I tried to fit them all into an update, it would be much longer, and would take me several more days to write. In the end, I thought it was better to split them up and move on to other subjects for the time being.

    True. So here's my justification. Little Fuzzy was published in 1962, two years before Piper's death. In the interim, one of the studios optioned the book (which happens very often in Hollywood), and after the science-fiction boom started, green-lit production. Yes, there were lawsuits, but these did not impede production, and a film was eventually made. We've certainly seen enough similar examples IOTL.

    Agreed. There was no way I could eliminate such perfect casting from the annals of TTL. It really is amazing, how right he is for the part of Wonka - though I admit, like many other people, I didn't realize just how right he was until witnessing Johnny Depp's interpretation... :eek: (And no, I haven't seen the new film in its entirety; frankly, I don't really want to, all things considered).

    I will be sure to do so, once we get there. I'm trying to proceed in roughly chronological order, despite these many detours ;)

    Like I said, we'll be hearing from Lucas again in the future. I can cast Robert Altman aside with impunity, but George Lucas? No way.

    Planet of the Apes came out in 1968, and contains no substantial differences from the OTL release. I think it's safe to say that some kind of television adaptation will be forthcoming - although whether Moonshot Lunacy will endure for that long is another question.

    Really? A lot of men (as subsequent comments have shown) swear by the earthy sexuality of those ladies from the 1970s; but if you prefer big hair, shoulder pads, and a lust for power, I can understand your point of view :p

    We will be covering the movies as well as television, though not quite at the same volume or level of detail; indeed, it's looking like I'll be working in an update about that treasure trove of beautiful women: the James Bond films.

    So you're a military brat! :D

    In other words, you discovered Star Trek in syndication, just like the rest of us ;) But you were obviously ahead of the curve on anime (and giant mecha shows). That must have been a surreal experience, hearing about "Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers" for the first time...

    Like Wilder, Lynda Carter was perfect for her role, and I'm hesitant to make any changes. Crosby obviously was a very poor fit for the character, and her interpretation was based on the misguided-but-understandable attempt to appeal to feminists of the time, which backfired quite spectacularly. Earlier in the thread, we argued about who was the best Batman, or the best Superman, and there are several worthy candidates for each of those titles. But Carter really is the one and only, even to this day.

    Ah, disco. You know, there's a distinct possibility that disco might not rise to prominence ITTL. I'm still mulling over that one.

    To be fair, her claim to that title was, and remains, uncontested. But she'll definitely a tough act to follow... if anyone ever tries!

    Thanks for all those names, Glen. I have no doubt that this fulfills a long-standing dream for your inner 13-year-old ;)

    You didn't like Reeve, you didn't like Carter, and you like Bale's Bat-voice... How does it feel to be wrong all the time? :p

    And now your inner 13-year-old is satisfied, too. I'm glad I could be so much help to all of you :rolleyes:

    Many of my regulars have been asking after Battlestar Galactica. Most of them are insisting that the success of Star Trek will spur someone to buy the show (which Larson had apparently been sitting on for a number of years). We'll have to see if they've convinced me!

    Thank you all for your comments! I hope to have the next update ready for tonight. If not then, it'll certainly be ready for tomorrow. But first I have to wipe all the drool off this thread. If you'll excuse me... :rolleyes:
  8. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

    Apr 20, 2005
    Oh, so to be on record, I personally LOVED Forever Knight! Except the very last episode - utter crap, the very, very end. I recommend people watch it all, but stop before seeing the very last episode.
  9. phx1138 Bocagiste troll

    Jun 20, 2009
    Charlie Townsend's guest house
    To both above quotes: My tastes are idiosyncratic at best, so being the minority is no surprise.:p
    Taking as given "Graffiti" is as big a hit as OTL, I'd agree. I don't mean he wouldn't get an SF project of his own conception, but with a different film/TV SF atmosphere, who produces will be impacted, & that will IMO impact ''what kind'' of film *"Star Wars" is. So, less space opera? TTL, IMO tolerance for space opera will be lessened. (I'm also expecting to be wrong.:p )
    Didn't have whatever particular qualities I liked, what can I say? Kate Jackson over Jacklyn Smith. Or Veronica Hamel ("HSB").:cool: Or Barbara Carrera ("Embryo" comes to mind).:cool::cool:
    IIRC, both 17 when the shows went on the air.
    My thoughts exactly. Also, after seeing "The Town that Dreaded Sundown" overnight, Dawn Wells, too. (Cute doesn't even start.:cool:)
    Fair 'nuf. (And TBH, not sure I've got the right woman anyhow.:eek:)
    Agree on both. I'll raise you a Melody Thomas (bit, in "The Shootist"), P. J. Soles (Paul's daughter), & Melanie Griffith. (She'd have made "Night Moves" worth watching, even if it didn't have a story.:cool::cool::cool: {I still haven't quite figured it out...:eek:} And while I'm thinking of Mel, watch for Annette O'Toole in "Smile".;))

    I'd have said Markie, but I think of "Fall Guy". The ones I remember best seem to be in the early-mid '80s...:rolleyes:
    Not even close.:p What was it Susan said to Spenser? "You never really grew up, you just got big"?:p
    First thread to need an accessory Handi-Wipe?:p:D
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2012
  10. The Professor Pontif of the Guild

    Feb 22, 2006
    Republic of Beerhaven
    Dear gods yes.
    Great series with great acting (even despite LaCroix stealing every scene :D) and then the final episode.
    What the, to be polite, dickens were the producers on to do that? I'm surprised they weren't all trapped in a mining disaster or something :rolleyes:
  11. joea64 Unabashed Edwardian Era fanboy

    Feb 14, 2007
    A few miles south of Henry House Hill
    To clarify: "giant mecha" shows are a subset of the larger anime genre. I never saw Space Cruiser Yamato (brought over here as Star Blazers), but it dates from this period as well, and actually came to the United States well before Robotech (which is a chopped-up version of Macross). Anyone who's seriously interested in anime needs to see some of the Go Nagai (and series by others working in his vein) classics such as Great Maizinger, Combattler V, Raiden, Gaiking, etc. The abortive Shogun Warriors project that some of you might remember (a fizzled attempt to bring some of these characters to U.S. television) doesn't do more than scratch the surface.

    I have never, ever, seen Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers, but I was a fan of the granddaddy of all the sentai/tokusatsu shows, Goranger (of which MMPR is a direct lineal descendant, following every bit of the classic formula for this genre). From what I know, it is my considered opinion that Goranger was first and did it far, far better. There was also another sentai series in 1976-77 that I liked, but that now I simply can't remember the name of, nor have I been able to locate it via Google; it was slightly bizarre, following the adventures of two stalwart heroes who would have their consciousness implanted into super-robots and ride souped-up combat motorcycles into battles to fight hordes of evil aliens wearing Naziesque uniforms, complete with huge tank battles on the Kanto Plain. :confused::eek: It was so crazy that I wish to heaven I could find it again!

    Actually, when I came to Okinawa I was hoping to find Ultraman shows. (Did you know, by the way, that the original Ultraman premiered at almost exactly the same time as Star Trek?) I lucked out and arrived right in the middle of the run of about the sixth or seventh in the long-running procession, Ultraman Leo, which is one of the darker entries in the Ultraman canon.
  12. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

    Apr 20, 2005
    Sure, you're the one who started it!

    Well you fixed that.

    Still will be fun to see. The timing and method is of course your priviledge.

    Do you have any evidence that an option was taken out by someone before Piper's death? If there is none, then really you are suggesting a second POD to get this result.

    Wilder was great in it - but Depp's character really was a completely different take - after reading the book, I think that each had their points.

    Again as you see fit...

    Oh, sure you could, but I think this way will be more fun and realistic.


    True, but I don't think it is necessary for the Planet of the Apes series.

    Ew, no thank you....

    Yes, Yes, YES!!!:D

    The Bond films! Oh, that'll be fun!

    Hmm, yes, that must be...

    Ditto that!

    When I was living through the 1970s, I would have thought that a good thing - now I wonder, and more to the point, worry what will replace it if you don't have it rise!:eek:

    Indeed - I wonder who would be best in a remake nowadays - hard to imagine...

    Actually not - my 13 year old self was an 80s guy (or went all classic - loved Myrna Loy, Maureen O'Hara, etc.). However, some of those late 70s choices did come through into the 80s, so there is that....

    I have to agree with Brainbin here, phx - you have some mighty 'unorthodox' views on classic superhero actors - don't worry, we still love you and all, but we are just a wee bit scared for you....


    Funny, very funny.
  13. Threadmarks: Meet the Bunkers

    Brainbin Kingpin of the Cultural Cartel

    Jul 26, 2009
    The British Empire
    Meet The Bunkers

    "Boy, the way Glenn Miller played,
    Songs that made the hit parade;
    Guys like me we had it made.
    Those were the days!
    Didn’t need no welfare state;
    Everybody pulled his weight.
    Gee, my old LaSalle ran great.
    Those were the days!
    And you knew where you were then,
    Girls were girls and men were men.
    Mister, we could use a man like Herbert Hoover again.
    Hair was short and skirts were long,
    Kate Smith really sold a song.
    I don’t know just what went wrong.
    Those were the days!

    - Theme from Those Were the Days, lyrics by Lee Adams and music by Charles Strouse; sung by Carroll O'Connor, aka Archie Bunker, and Jean Stapleton, aka Edith Bunker [1]

    The history of Those Were the Days is an especially convoluted one, which has only added to its mystique, and would put even Star Trek to shame. It began life across the pond, as a British sitcom called "Till Death Us Do Part". It was created by veteran comedy writer Johnny Speight, who intended to use the program, and its lead character, Alf Garnett, to satirize racist and reactionary viewpoints. The show was defined by the ongoing conflicts between Garnett and his son-in-law; this was symbolic of the gaping generation gap facing young adults, and their middle-aged parents, in this era. Topical and highly provocative, the show became an instant hit; it also caught the attention of an American writer-producer by the name of Norman Lear.

    Lear became convinced that an adaptation of the program, tailored to American audiences, would also become hugely successful. ABC, the last-place network, was desperate enough to take a chance on this long-shot idea, and a pilot was developed in 1968, which was, to put it delicately, an eventful year indeed. It was named "Justice for All", a reference to the Pledge of Allegiance but also, in a manner typical of the show's British origins, a pun on the family’s surname: Justice. Carroll O'Connor and Jean Stapleton played Archie and Edith Justice, being involved with the show from conception to delivery. [2] O'Connor, who had been living in Europe at the time that Norman Lear had contacted him about the part, moved back to his birthplace of New York City, where the pilot was being taped, to play the role. He found himself intimately involved in the writing process, as well as the characterization of Archie. Like Lear, O'Connor was very liberal, but he had an incredibly insightful understanding of the character and his circumstances, and imbued in him a powerful sense of pathos. He and Stapleton worked well together, their low-key chemistry perfectly evocative of a long-time married couple. Like O'Connor, Stapleton was a gifted performer, bringing warmth and humanity to her character, who would become the emotional core of the series.

    For all the strengths of the "Justice for All" pilot, there were many weaknesses, particularly the poor casting of the daughter and son-in-law characters, Gloria and Richard. [3] ABC, following the footsteps of NBC with Star Trek a few years before, agreed to commission a second pilot. It was renamed "Those Were the Days", and the filming was moved to Hollywood. Gloria and Richard, now nicknamed "Dickie", were recast, and the surname of the family was changed from "Justice" to "Bunker", a name deemed suitably Anglo-Saxon and evocative of American culture. The pilot script underwent only light revisions; indeed, it was O'Connor, and not Lear, who was largely responsible for the rewrite. 1969 was shaping up to be a far more optimistic year than 1968 had been; Hubert H. Humphrey, the "Happy Warrior", was now President, and he was working to end the overseas quagmire in which the United States had become entangled. Accordingly, the second pilot was considered "softer" than the first had been. But it wasn’t enough for ABC, who had seen the failure of "Turn-On" blow up in their faces earlier that year, and weren’t ready to take a chance on another highly topical, controversial series. [4] They rejected the pilot, and it looked like the show would be over before it even got started.

    But then salvation came from seemingly the unlikeliest of places. Fred Silverman, the new Vice-President of Programming at CBS, bought the broadcast rights from ABC. He wanted to revamp his network’s image, and was eager to produce shows that would appeal to younger, more urban audiences in order to do so. [5] He gave Lear and O'Connor one more chance to sell him and the network executives on the show. Though Star Trek had been the first series to secure a second pilot, and other shows had since followed, an order for a third pilot was unprecedented. Gloria and Dickie were once again recast: Gloria was played by Penny Marshall [6], who strongly resembled Stapleton, and Dickie, whose name was restored back to Richard, was played by… Richard Dreyfuss. Among the other finalists for the role was Marshall’s husband, Rob Reiner, who was deemed "too mean" for the part. [7] The script was once again lightly revised; it was 1970, and the renewed sense of American optimism, coupled with the rise of Moonshot Lunacy, meant that the originally intended tone of the show (that of the younger generation aghast at the continuing endurance of Archie's viewpoints, and the people who held them) was turned on its head: instead, it became about the struggle of the older generation to cast their viewpoints aside and embrace the positive changes impacting society. Norman Lear was hesitant about this paradigm shift, but O'Connor and Stapleton were both insistent that it would work. [8] The suits at the network agreed, and Those Were the Days was set to premiere in mid-season, on January 12, 1971. [9]

    The expected controversy surrounding the series failed to materialize, for the very simple reason that nobody was watching. Critics gave the show very positive notices, but audiences mostly ignored the show throughout its entire first season of 13 episodes. Word-of-mouth was excellent, as it had been with Star Trek in the early going, and combined with strong support from Silverman, there was no doubt of the series returning for a second season. It was during the Emmy Awards of May 9, 1971, that Those Were the Days finally made its mark. The characters from the show were featured in the opening sketch of the awards ceremony, and the series would go on to win three Emmys that night, including Outstanding Comedy Series, and Outstanding Lead Actress for Stapleton. It was a complete vindication for all involved, and from that point forward, the ratings continued to climb. The 1971-72 season would prove a turning point for network television in general, and Those Were the Days was leading the way…


    [1] IOTL, seven different versions of this theme song were produced: the 1968 pilot version; the 1969 pilot version; the 1972 single release version; and four different versions used throughout the run of the series proper. Stapleton's piano playing is livelier and more uptempo than most of her OTL renditions, reflecting both the optimism of TTL society and the greater emphasis on nostalgia. Also, the theme is reprised over the end credits; IOTL, the instrumental "Remembering You" was used as the end theme instead.

    [2] Stapleton was famously offered the role of Mrs. Teavee on Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory, but declined in favour of shooting the third (and final) pilot instead. IOTL, the role was instead offered to Dodo Denney; ITTL, it went to somebody else.

    [3] Richard was Irish-American, echoing the Irish Catholic roots of the analogous character from "Till Death Us Do Part". It was only when Reiner (who could never pass as Irish-American) was cast IOTL that "Michael" (renamed after the original son-in-law) became Polish-American instead. The obvious irony was that Carroll O'Connor - playing a WASP - was himself Irish-American.

    [4] This is the exact same reason that ABC ultimately rejected All in the Family IOTL.

    [5] We'll hear a good deal more about Silverman and his plans for CBS in short order.

    [6] Penny Marshall would, IOTL, go on to play Laverne in "Laverne and Shirley" and become the first woman to direct a picture that grossed over $100 million: 1988's Big. She was chosen over the OTL Gloria, Sally Struthers, because it was felt that the character should be able to stand up to both her husband and her father, and Struthers was seen as "too passive".

    [7] Given the zeitgeist of TTL, a character who constantly complains and gripes about society in the Reiner mould would not work. Also, Dreyfuss - though he, like Reiner, is Jewish - is seen as more able to "pass" as Irish-American. Dreyfuss and O'Connor would both make light of their cross-ethnic casting, noting that they were an Irishman and a Jew playing a WASP and an Irishman.
    Since Dreyfuss is slightly shorter than Marshall, she has to wear flats and slouch a lot, and he wears lifts in his shoes.

    [8] O'Connor and Lear had two very different views of their lead character, why their show was a success, and how it appealed to people. IOTL, O'Connor was right, but Lear had just enough plausible deniability to delude himself into believing that his view was the correct one.

    [9] Given the show's emphasis on the older generation coming to terms with the new ways, Those Were the Days is retained as a title. IOTL, it was of course replaced by All in the Family. The date of the series premiere is as IOTL; the series being replaced was called "To Rome With Love", which was moved to another timeslot and, unsurprisingly, did not survive the 1970-71 season.


    And thus, we explore the origins of one of TTL's most important series: Those Were the Days. I'm sure that many of you can already see the rabble of butterflies forming in response to the changes from OTL. We'll further discuss production details, content, and audience response when we return to the series in the next cycle of updates. But coming up next time: a final farewell to classic television.
    LordSia and Mackon like this.
  14. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

    Apr 20, 2005
    A nice update - heck, it almost sounds like a show I might actually consider watching - I really didn't like the OTL version. Other than the lighter more optimistic trend, I'm not entirely certain I see how the changes in this series follow from the POD of this timeline, however.

    Now then, having said that, Marshall is way better than Struthers for my tastes, and its just interesting to see how Dreyfuss in this series will change things down the road - really enjoy Reiner as a director, but he wasn't my favorite either, though that may have been the character more than the actor.
  15. joea64 Unabashed Edwardian Era fanboy

    Feb 14, 2007
    A few miles south of Henry House Hill
    The OTL version was never one of my favorite shows, either, though my parents loved it (IIRC AFRTS did show it on Okinawa, though a season or two behind). I think, admittedly, that may have been because I wasn't quite old enough to get all the issues or appreciate the humor, and besides dialogue-driven shows like that have always been hard for me to appreciate without closed-captioning (which I've previously mentioned - BTW, Brainbin, I think the initial research into that technology is being done about now; do you think you could take a look at it sometime? I doubt there'll be any changes from OTL but it's a technological thing readers might be interested in.)

    I never much liked the characters of Gloria and Mike as played by Sally Struthers and Rob Reiner, either. The former seemed to me to be too much of a doormat and the latter often came across to me as a classic Jerkass, with the probably unintended (or was it?) consequence that I often found myself rooting for Archie in their clashes. I don't have any strong feelings about Penny Marshall, but I quite like Richard Dreyfuss; I would say that if Close Encounters of the Third Kind is made TTL, and Dreyfuss gets the lead, there will be a LOT of jokes. :D
  16. DTF955Baseballfan 12-time All-Star in some TL

    Oct 19, 2005
    10 miles north of 10 miles south
    Interesting; the more optimistic tone means I would perhaps have fonder memories of this show than I do OTL, aside from the nice talks about why bigotry is wrong, etc., which to me is more a reminder of what a great family i had growing up & still have. Like Joea4, I didn't like how some of the clashes were handled; ISTR this was one of the shows I dropped first when school got to busy in upper elementary, going into Junior High. (As it was, I really just watched it in the afternoon, in repeats, so I probably didn't watch it much after '77 or so) Perhaps one way it will be different is fewer arguements and clashes over things.

    That said, now I do have quite a few thigns to do with work and such so I will be away from this thread till it gets to the Bicentennial year or therabouts.
  17. phx1138 Bocagiste troll

    Jun 20, 2009
    Charlie Townsend's guest house
    So the fact a vampire is a working policeman never troubled you? How he passed the Academy never raised an eyebrow?:rolleyes: Nor that, typically Canadian, he just couldn't:eek: be a solo operator.:eek: No, he had to be law-abiding...:rolleyes: (Leave off the cheesy green contacts.:rolleyes: And the mediocre acting.:rolleyes: And scripts.:rolleyes:) I also presume you hated "Angel".:eek::rolleyes: (Needless to say, I loved "Angel". Not only for Charisma.:p:cool::cool: Who was very under-utilized IMO. Except, had they really done her justice, they'd have had a faux Slayer...:rolleyes:)
    Having seen her quite amazing Jean Grey, I'd be interested in seeing Famke Janssen try it. And after Silk Spectre, I think I'd pick Malin Ackerman.:cool: (Hmm...maybe she's too Donna.:rolleyes::eek:) Jennifer Garner doesn't have the gravitas. Cynthia Rothrock? (Can she actually act?:p) Cote's a bit small for it. Push the edges & pick Moon Bloodgood or Rachel Luttrell?
    I'm not going to bust you for keeping it (or say you should change it now:eek:), but this was the biggest flaw in the theme. Was it a used LaSalle? It really would have to be, 'cause I don't feature Arch ever earning enough to own a new one. (Or his father, either, which is about how old it'd be.) Bear in mind, this was the "entry level" Caddy of the '30s!

    Or am I missing intentional irony?:eek: Those lyrics really belong to Arch & Edith's parents, not them.
    :eek::rolleyes: This is a real "guitar music is on the way out" moment.:eek::rolleyes:
    An intriguing choice. That would appear to butterfly out "Laverne & Shirley":cool:...& would have a perceptible impact on "Happy Days". (Just what it would be, I'm not going to guess.)

    Casting Richard Dreyfus... That's liable to make him unavailable for "Graffiti".:eek: (Billy Crystal, anyone?;)) And "Dillinger" (Baby Face Nelson). And the title role in "Duddy Kravitz". And "Jaws".:eek::eek: "Goodbye Girl" & "CE3K", too?

    IMO, it dramatically changes the dynamics between Arch & "the Meathead". (Does he even get called that?:eek:) I really can't see Dreyfus as the layabout hippie Rob Reiner played (presuming that's where the character goes at all).

    I do agree, Struthers was probably the weakest cast member, & a real doormat. How much of that was weak writing for her, IDK. I've never quite figured out how writers will, can, create major characters with no future.:confused: (Ford, of "SGA", was singularly bad.:rolleyes: Yar on "STNG", too, really.) Except, perhaps, ones that weren't intended to have life beyond a project to begin with...:rolleyes: Michael Shanks complained about the limits of Jackson on "SG-1", but consider the source. Where else could you go? They managed to retcon (or simply ignore...:rolleyes:) his allergies; what were they going to do, make him into Daniel Hemlock?:rolleyes:
  18. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

    Apr 20, 2005
    Nope, that didn't bother me one bit, especially one with a driving need to atone for his past.

    I assumed that he never went to the Academy, but rather had a combination of forged documents and carefully placed hypnotic suggestions to fake his way into the job. Really, humans have pulled off similar masquerades, so it should be a cinch for a vampire with all the time in the world and some very useful powers.

    Makes it more interesting, gets him more access to intel on who's doing evil in the world.

    Seen worse.

    Personally I loved the characters in the show, found them well fleshed out with distinct personalities that the actors crafted nicely.

    Okay, the scripts were very uneven - though I enjoyed the ones that built on or revealed the relationships of the characters in the show.

    Wrong, I loved Angel, watched it from the first episode on.

    Cordy was great - as was, later, Lorne, in completely different ways of course.

    Hard shoes to fill, though many of your suggestions are reasonable ones. Perhaps the best one I can think of at the moment would be Kate Beckinsale. This picture has a vaguely pseudo-Grecian Amazonian look to give an idea, and we know she can pull off a stunt-filled role.


    What an interesting thought - I think you may be right, that those lyrics fit their parents better than them, or rather, their childhood memories of their parents' lives.

    Laverne and Shirley, obviously. Happy Days, not so much, as Peggy Marshall wasn't a large part of the show.

    Not sure - there have been TV actors who also made movies, but he probably would have to have a much lesser movie CV for this period of time.


    Agreed, but somehow I don't see Penny Marshall letting that kind of writing happen to a character she is playing. The Father-Daughter dynamic will definitely be different ITTL on this show!

    Hey, I liked those two!

    Well, does seem like a bit of some odd complaints, as they really did get a lot of milage out of the Daniel Jackson character.
  19. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

    Apr 20, 2005
  20. vultan Defying Gravity

    Dec 12, 2008
    Somewhere Only We Know
    I can tell- no Farrah Fawcett! :eek: