The Churchill Crocodile would be extremely useful against Japanese bunkers during the Commonwealth and Imperial march through Thailand and into Indochina.
Last edited:
Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.
- Thread starter allanpcameron
- Start date
Was the Churchill III the first mark to have an AVRE version? I have not found a photo of that first AVRE version, or any of the later mid-war AVREs, with a dozer blade. Other useful capabilities, yes, but not a dozer blade in particular.
I don't think the Churchill was ever fitted, though the Matilda II, Crusader and Cromwell all were at some point.
Not seen a picture with one , they do seem to be varying AVRE's but mainly its demolition or bridging on various types. Not sure there was a Cromwell bulldozer, are you mixing it up with the Centaur ones that did exist ( very similar looking it must be said and use of centaur hulls as funnies rather than more useful Cromwell's was common)?
This may have been due to the way the Churchill's tracks extended in front of the hull meaning the tank may have already been climbing an obstacle before the blade reaches it.
Ah, yes, my bad. It was mention on the Cromwell wikipedia page, so I assumed they were talking about Cromwells.
In any case, our interest is is what capabilities might have existed in the Far East theater.
i imagine doing something like this to the motly colection of vehicles theyre getting
Derek Pullem
Donor
If they need a combat dozer then a Matilda II (or I) conversion is most likely - Aussies did this later in the war https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/australia/matilda-dozer
Have a vague memory of a bodge job being done on Matilda I on Malta or Crete to act as bulldozer as well.
Ramp-Rat
Monthly Donor
While there can be no doubt that the Crocodile version of the Churchill Tank would be extremely useful in the SEA region, it is even ITTL with the much better availability and designs of tanks. Too soon for such a weapon to have been developed, along with the rest of the technology required, it’s not just the tank, but also the trailer, high pressure delivery system, flame gun, and the fuel. Yes Hobart will have it on his list of specialist tanks to develop, but given the number of specialist vehicle’s development he has to oversee, such a vehicle will not be top of the list. I believe that his three main priorities will be an armoured engineer tank, remember Hobart was an engineering officer first, a bridging tank, and a mine clearance tank. The first armoured flamethrower is going to be wheeled closely followed by a carrier based version. . Only once experience has been gained from experimentation with these, will Hobart and his merry band develop TTL’s equivalent of OTL’s Churchill Crocodile.
RR.
RR.
Pretty sure that they had flamethrower Churchills at Dieppe in August 1942 ( not that they did much good ) so I think you are a bit out on first ones being wheeled.
Today because of this thread i have cried like a baby.
Ladies and Gentlemen may i i troduce you to my Grandfather.
We knew he went to the far east but he never spoke about the war .
Thank you so much for posting this...it has gone through my family already...lots of incredulous comments , we are all shocked but happy .
Ladies and Gentlemen may i i troduce you to my Grandfather.
We knew he went to the far east but he never spoke about the war .
Thank you so much for posting this...it has gone through my family already...lots of incredulous comments , we are all shocked but happy .
22 May 1942. Rangoon, Burma.
allanpcameron
Donor
22 May 1942. Rangoon, Burma.
General Auchinleck, with Generals Alexander and Slim, were picking through the reports of the actions of Slim’s forces, with some pleasure. The successful crossing of the Ping River in April had been followed by a period of relatively rapid advance in the face of mixed Japanese opposition. Where the Japanese had had time to build solid defences, with interlocking fire, they were quite difficult to winkle out. Where they less prepared, the Japanese didn’t seem able to cope with the strong British and Indian artillery, backed by tanks and good infantry drills.
Having given it some thought, and with only six Divisions to his name, Slim had decided that he didn’t want to overextend his force too much. The majority of the Burmese Division was in and around Bruma, acting in support of the civilian administration, expanding infrastructure and training new arrivals in the ways of jungle fighting. The newly arrived, and still green, Indian 14th Infantry Division was left as a holding force around the river crossing at Tak, along with their line of communication duties. Slim decided to make his main advance toward Bangkok along the Ping River firstly to Nakhon Sawat, where the Ping River meets the Nan River to become the Chao Phraya River.
Using the river as his main logistical support had positives and minuses, but generally was considered the easier path. There was a roadway on the east bank of the river that allowed much of the wheeled transport to follow the river south to Nakhon Sawat, some 100 miles from Tak. Once he had arrived, Slim had pushed the 10th Indian Division forward as fast as possible to capture the town, the river crossings, and essentially, the railway head on the east bank. This they had successfully achieved, and 7th Indian Division were reinforcing them. Slim’s other two divisions 9th (Highland) and 11th African Divisions were following along.
The commencement of the rainy season was beginning to hamper progress, which Auchinleck and Alexander agreed was a good time to halt where Slim was. This would allow time for him to build up stores for the next phase of the attack towards Bangkok. The RAF were also hard at work rebuilding their Burmese airfields as well as strengthening the landing field near the Ping River. Another landing field would need to be built near Nakhon Sawat.
The other good news was the fact that locally the Thai authorities and military were actively supporting Slim’s advance. Through back channels it had been made clear to the Thai government that the British had no territorial ambitions in Thailand. If it wasn’t for the Japanese invasion of Thailand that threatened Malaya and Burma, the British and Indian forces would have been happy to leave Thailand its independence and neutrality. Once the Japanese were cleared out of Thailand, the Allied forces would also withdraw, though retain the ability to transverse the country. The Thai government, with a Japanese gun to their head, were still technically at war with the forces of the British Empire, at a local level the situation was very different. The Japanese forces had pillaged their so-called allies, the British and Indian troops brought aid and food with them. Thai workers were paid for their efforts, the Japanese had treated them as little more than slaves. Thai women were treated with respect (generally) by the Empire troops, not something that the Japanese had done.
Slim was conscious that the forced halt for the monsoon season was a necessary evil. At the same time that he and his men would have time to rest, refit and build up supplies, the pause would equally benefit the Japanese. Getting to the point when his army would be able to fight all the year round was something that Slim was determined to do, but this monsoon season, he would have to cool his heals. Auchinleck was pleased to inform him that another British Infantry Division (48th [South Midland] Division) had sailed from the Clyde and could be expected in July. 50th Tank Brigade would also be ready to join them by them, as would 26th Indian Division, though acting as line of communications troops initially, replacing the 14th Indian Infantry Division in that role.
General Auchinleck, with Generals Alexander and Slim, were picking through the reports of the actions of Slim’s forces, with some pleasure. The successful crossing of the Ping River in April had been followed by a period of relatively rapid advance in the face of mixed Japanese opposition. Where the Japanese had had time to build solid defences, with interlocking fire, they were quite difficult to winkle out. Where they less prepared, the Japanese didn’t seem able to cope with the strong British and Indian artillery, backed by tanks and good infantry drills.
Having given it some thought, and with only six Divisions to his name, Slim had decided that he didn’t want to overextend his force too much. The majority of the Burmese Division was in and around Bruma, acting in support of the civilian administration, expanding infrastructure and training new arrivals in the ways of jungle fighting. The newly arrived, and still green, Indian 14th Infantry Division was left as a holding force around the river crossing at Tak, along with their line of communication duties. Slim decided to make his main advance toward Bangkok along the Ping River firstly to Nakhon Sawat, where the Ping River meets the Nan River to become the Chao Phraya River.
Using the river as his main logistical support had positives and minuses, but generally was considered the easier path. There was a roadway on the east bank of the river that allowed much of the wheeled transport to follow the river south to Nakhon Sawat, some 100 miles from Tak. Once he had arrived, Slim had pushed the 10th Indian Division forward as fast as possible to capture the town, the river crossings, and essentially, the railway head on the east bank. This they had successfully achieved, and 7th Indian Division were reinforcing them. Slim’s other two divisions 9th (Highland) and 11th African Divisions were following along.
The commencement of the rainy season was beginning to hamper progress, which Auchinleck and Alexander agreed was a good time to halt where Slim was. This would allow time for him to build up stores for the next phase of the attack towards Bangkok. The RAF were also hard at work rebuilding their Burmese airfields as well as strengthening the landing field near the Ping River. Another landing field would need to be built near Nakhon Sawat.
The other good news was the fact that locally the Thai authorities and military were actively supporting Slim’s advance. Through back channels it had been made clear to the Thai government that the British had no territorial ambitions in Thailand. If it wasn’t for the Japanese invasion of Thailand that threatened Malaya and Burma, the British and Indian forces would have been happy to leave Thailand its independence and neutrality. Once the Japanese were cleared out of Thailand, the Allied forces would also withdraw, though retain the ability to transverse the country. The Thai government, with a Japanese gun to their head, were still technically at war with the forces of the British Empire, at a local level the situation was very different. The Japanese forces had pillaged their so-called allies, the British and Indian troops brought aid and food with them. Thai workers were paid for their efforts, the Japanese had treated them as little more than slaves. Thai women were treated with respect (generally) by the Empire troops, not something that the Japanese had done.
Slim was conscious that the forced halt for the monsoon season was a necessary evil. At the same time that he and his men would have time to rest, refit and build up supplies, the pause would equally benefit the Japanese. Getting to the point when his army would be able to fight all the year round was something that Slim was determined to do, but this monsoon season, he would have to cool his heals. Auchinleck was pleased to inform him that another British Infantry Division (48th [South Midland] Division) had sailed from the Clyde and could be expected in July. 50th Tank Brigade would also be ready to join them by them, as would 26th Indian Division, though acting as line of communications troops initially, replacing the 14th Indian Infantry Division in that role.
The Churchill Oke was tested at Dieppe, all three quickly lost and abandoned, doesn't say how much use the one still capable of using its flamethrower after launch actually used it.
Churchill Oke
A Churchill II or III with a flamethrower. The Oke flamethrowing tank was named after its designer, Major J.M. Oke. The design was basically for a Churchill tank fitted with the Ronson...
www.nevingtonwarmuseum.com
Last edited: