Problem with not trusting Stalin is by this point there has been enough penetration by the Russians of British and what passes for American intelligence that willmean the Russians will have a good idea of what is going on unless Britain or the US find a soviet spy which would look very poor for the USSR but there has not been a large enough shift in the intel area to allow for this.
Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.
- Thread starter allanpcameron
- Start date
Sounds like the discussion one of the brilliant but extraordinarily snobby Evelyn Waugh's friends had with their CO had before Operation Torch, when Evelyn's relationship with his platoon had reached rock bottom;
Captain - "Sir, you can't send Waugh to the front. We're all sure he'll get shot".
Major - "We all have to take our chances with the Germans".
Captain - "It's not the Germans we're worried about".
Ramp-Rat
Monthly Donor
The resent post regarding the exercise of the 11th armoured division, under Major-General E Fanshawe, who has himself recently completed a high command course. Is a prime example of just how much this TL has diverted from ours, not only in equipment but also in tactics. It’s early in 1942, and the new 6 pounder equipped tanks are about to enter service alongside self propelled artillery, and fully tracked infantry carriers. The pressure that Britain was under IOTL, both militarily, politically and industrially, doesn’t ITTL exist. The British campaign in the Middle East, is very close to a successful conclusion, as it is only waiting for the French in North Africa and the Levent to decide to switch sides. In the Eastern Mediterranean, while Greece and Yugoslavia have fallen to the Axis, the British along with the Greeks have managed to retain Crete, and its the Axis powers especially Italy that are on the defensive. In the Far East the Japanese onslaught has successfully been defeated and the British are beginning to push back, and the security of British India is not in question, nor is the supply lines between Britain and the Antipodes. British industry thanks in part to the survival of Sir John and his influence over armoured vehicle design and production, is now producing excellent armoured vehicles, for itself and its Imperial allies, and in addition the Soviet Union. As for the new Valiant II, which is going to see limited combat in Europe, it will however be a very useful training vehicle, along with being the principal MBT, for British imperial forces in the East. Improvements in ammunition will ensure that it is superior to anything that the Japanese can field, except in tiny numbers, until the end of the war. And it’s reliability and relative light weight, will be a major advantage especially in regards to logistics in this theatre, with its comparatively poor infrastructure.
Fanshawe once he assumes his new position as Director General Training for the RAC, is I believe about to do something very Un-British. He will ensure via his oversight of the training regime that there is a single TOE for a ‘ British ‘ armoured division, with a standard doctrine for its employment and tactics. This will only apply in Europe, predominately Northern Europe, as infrastructure, logistics and geography elsewhere, will require that consideration of local conditions will require a different establishment and tactics. By mid 1943, British armoured divisions will be the best equipped in the world, and will be able to be slotted in to place in a Corps/Army at will. And so by the end of 1943, a British, Canadian or Polish armoured division will other than its armoured reconnaissance regiment, and the overwhelming majority of its transport units, be an all tracked formation. Given that I believe that French forces will ITTL, draw the majority of their equipment from the Americans, they will have a mix of tracked, half-tracked, and wheeled equipment. British, Canadian and Polish, motorised divisions will in addition to their two independent tanks regiments, have one of their three infantry brigades equipped with ether British fully tracked APC’s or American half- track APC’s. While the other two are fully motorised with sufficient wheeled infantry carriers for all the troops in the brigade. In Europe primarily for use outside the northern zone and for airborne operations, light, mountain and airborne divisions will equipped to suit their role and the geography of the zone in which they are operating. In the same way divisions in the Far East ether so called armoured and infantry, will be equipped to suit the local conditions. Thus an armoured division will probably have fewer and lighter tanks than a European infantry division and no APC’s, SP artillery, and other than a few light bulldozers, non of the extensive armoured engineering vehicles found in Europe. In away one has to feel sorry the German forces who from 1943 onwards encounter the Anglo American forces, who will be equipped and supplied with a lavishness they can only dream of, and support by airforces beyond their comprehension. While at the same time their homeland is progressively being destroyed by bombing.
RR.
Fanshawe once he assumes his new position as Director General Training for the RAC, is I believe about to do something very Un-British. He will ensure via his oversight of the training regime that there is a single TOE for a ‘ British ‘ armoured division, with a standard doctrine for its employment and tactics. This will only apply in Europe, predominately Northern Europe, as infrastructure, logistics and geography elsewhere, will require that consideration of local conditions will require a different establishment and tactics. By mid 1943, British armoured divisions will be the best equipped in the world, and will be able to be slotted in to place in a Corps/Army at will. And so by the end of 1943, a British, Canadian or Polish armoured division will other than its armoured reconnaissance regiment, and the overwhelming majority of its transport units, be an all tracked formation. Given that I believe that French forces will ITTL, draw the majority of their equipment from the Americans, they will have a mix of tracked, half-tracked, and wheeled equipment. British, Canadian and Polish, motorised divisions will in addition to their two independent tanks regiments, have one of their three infantry brigades equipped with ether British fully tracked APC’s or American half- track APC’s. While the other two are fully motorised with sufficient wheeled infantry carriers for all the troops in the brigade. In Europe primarily for use outside the northern zone and for airborne operations, light, mountain and airborne divisions will equipped to suit their role and the geography of the zone in which they are operating. In the same way divisions in the Far East ether so called armoured and infantry, will be equipped to suit the local conditions. Thus an armoured division will probably have fewer and lighter tanks than a European infantry division and no APC’s, SP artillery, and other than a few light bulldozers, non of the extensive armoured engineering vehicles found in Europe. In away one has to feel sorry the German forces who from 1943 onwards encounter the Anglo American forces, who will be equipped and supplied with a lavishness they can only dream of, and support by airforces beyond their comprehension. While at the same time their homeland is progressively being destroyed by bombing.
RR.
I'd argue instead of a SP Arty out east they may look at having a mounted mortar section or a Mortar carrier to provide fire support for mobile armour and infantry. It may be lighter than a SPG but local fire power is always useful, that or Close Support Tanks will last longer.
Ramp-Rat
Monthly Donor
While on the face of it this is a good idea, it does however come up against one problem. Mortars are not ideal weapons in close jungle terrain, as the tree cover can make it very difficult to find a clearing where the mortar rounds will not encounter an overhanging branch and prematurely detonate outbound. And inbound to their target, the cover provided by the trees in the air and on the ground, can seriously reduce their effectiveness. However in the more open environment found in and around villages, and among the plantations and rice paddies, mortars are very effective weapons. But I personally think that a mule section which can go anywhere a man can, would be a much better option.
RR.
Exercising a certain degree of control over the press in wartime is hardly totalitarianism, old boy!
Not really. If Lord Mountbatten’ ego was enough to keep the crew of a (K-Class, IIRC) destroyer afloat, I’m sure MacArthurs would be sufficient to float anything. Probably including the Titanic, or the Yamato.
Possibly even both.
Well the radio signal was lost - no proof of a sinking.
Mac turns up on a captured a Japanese destroyer after leading a boarding action - his personal bravery was not in question……..
Now what?
Mountbatten's ego could only float half the crew, not the ship, so I'm not sure whether that scales to floating a whole sub on MacArthur's?
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All Empires have to become totalitarian as their power and influence wanes.
An issue is presented as a temporary necessity, which morphs into a concrete methodology.
A certain degree of control? Or we'll throw the lot of you into Changi for the duration?
Lord Acton comes to mind here.
Censoring neutral or allied media reporters near the Front is hardly totalitarian. Or do you think a Swiss reporter near Ike's HQ in 1944 would have been allowed to report whatever he liked? Unless the British have our hypothetical muckraker shot without trial nobody in DC is going to care.
Derek Pullem
Donor
Quite a sweeping statement there - difficult to see the difference between empires and nation states. Plus totalitarian states aren't always Empires so Totalitarianism isn't an artifact of Empire
US internment of Japanese nationals anyone?
Ramontxo
Donor
Sometimes press censorship is vital in a war. Like the Chicago Tribune publishing that the US Navy knew the composition of the Japanese Fleet Force send to the Midway Battle (and that is not the only time the Chicago Tribune endangered lifes).
but it is not only the press, wasn't a us congressman or senator responsible for leaking sensitive info during ww2
found him: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_J._May
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