the reason why they dropped the bomb in OTL was because they knew it would have a lower death toll than an invasion would as you said
Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.
- Thread starter allanpcameron
- Start date
9 January 1942. Sydney, Australia.
allanpcameron
Donor
9 January 1942. Sydney, Australia.
The convoy MS 2 was preparing to sail for Singapore the next day. There was only one ship in the convoy, MS Aquitania, which was well used to taking Australian troops to their destinations. Aquitania, escorted by HMAS Canberra, would be carrying 3456 men to Ratai Bay in the Sunda Straight, where the men would be transhipped onto smaller Dutch vessels to carry on to Singapore.
Most of the men were sent to build up the reinforcement pool for 8 and 9 Divisions. The arrival of 6 and 9 Divisions from the Middle East had included a good number of men who were waiting to be needed to replace losses. Since a great many of the veterans had been switched to training roles, or used to leaven less experienced units, building up the reserves was an important part of overall readiness. Along with these replacements, the ship also carried a contingent of RAAF pilots and ground crew, who likewise were needed to replace the losses suffered in the first month of operations.
The only complete unit on board Aquitania was Australian 2/3 Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment. As Gunner Robert Bryant of 8th Battery looked out over Sydney Harbour, he couldn’t really believe that it was just over a year ago he’d sailed away to the Middle East from Melbourne on the Mauretania. He wasn’t keen on the idea of transferring onto smaller boats, the memories of the voyage into Egypt on the Devonshire still haunted him.
Having handed over their Italian AA guns to the Greek Army, they’d sailed back to Australia and retrained on Bofors 40mm guns. These were far more effective than the lighter 20mm guns, but much heavier work. The transition hadn’t been too difficult, and the men’s combat experience made much of the changes relatively easy on them.
Bryant had had a few weeks’ leave and his time with his family and with Marjory was something he knew he could cherish. She had joked after love making that she wouldn’t be surprised if there was a baby in the house when he got his next leave. That was something that made getting home all the more crucial. His mates had been telling each other all about their adventures on leave, and Bryant had been a bit coy about his. To his mates it was a sure sign that he’d spent most of his leave in the marital bed, and they weren’t wrong.
The news that the Japanese were making slow progress against the Indian troops in Malaya and Borneo was worrying, but Bryant and his mates had taken on the Italian air force and the German Luftwaffe. There was a confidence born of experience that the Japanese aircraft would go down just as surely as the others had done.
The convoy MS 2 was preparing to sail for Singapore the next day. There was only one ship in the convoy, MS Aquitania, which was well used to taking Australian troops to their destinations. Aquitania, escorted by HMAS Canberra, would be carrying 3456 men to Ratai Bay in the Sunda Straight, where the men would be transhipped onto smaller Dutch vessels to carry on to Singapore.
Most of the men were sent to build up the reinforcement pool for 8 and 9 Divisions. The arrival of 6 and 9 Divisions from the Middle East had included a good number of men who were waiting to be needed to replace losses. Since a great many of the veterans had been switched to training roles, or used to leaven less experienced units, building up the reserves was an important part of overall readiness. Along with these replacements, the ship also carried a contingent of RAAF pilots and ground crew, who likewise were needed to replace the losses suffered in the first month of operations.
The only complete unit on board Aquitania was Australian 2/3 Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment. As Gunner Robert Bryant of 8th Battery looked out over Sydney Harbour, he couldn’t really believe that it was just over a year ago he’d sailed away to the Middle East from Melbourne on the Mauretania. He wasn’t keen on the idea of transferring onto smaller boats, the memories of the voyage into Egypt on the Devonshire still haunted him.
Having handed over their Italian AA guns to the Greek Army, they’d sailed back to Australia and retrained on Bofors 40mm guns. These were far more effective than the lighter 20mm guns, but much heavier work. The transition hadn’t been too difficult, and the men’s combat experience made much of the changes relatively easy on them.
Bryant had had a few weeks’ leave and his time with his family and with Marjory was something he knew he could cherish. She had joked after love making that she wouldn’t be surprised if there was a baby in the house when he got his next leave. That was something that made getting home all the more crucial. His mates had been telling each other all about their adventures on leave, and Bryant had been a bit coy about his. To his mates it was a sure sign that he’d spent most of his leave in the marital bed, and they weren’t wrong.
The news that the Japanese were making slow progress against the Indian troops in Malaya and Borneo was worrying, but Bryant and his mates had taken on the Italian air force and the German Luftwaffe. There was a confidence born of experience that the Japanese aircraft would go down just as surely as the others had done.
Hadn't they already done that in previous conflicts? In any case the Japanese advance is starting to resemble a certain rather more recent war. Sure they can win battles but they can't win the war due to facing a determined, well equipped enemy on home territory and will probably run out of bods first.
Unfortunately as with that more recent war getting the leadership to see that and just give up remains a massive problem...
That too.
Well no-one could ever accuse the Japanese of not being resolute in their course. That's not always a good thing though.
Literal God complex about being the superior "race" led by nutters whose prop figurehead was seen as an actual God. It's a lethal combination.
Same issue with the Nazi's (although Hitler was apparently seen more as the Second coming than literally God incarnate).
10 January 1942. Grand Blanc, Michigan. USA.
allanpcameron
Donor
10 January 1942. Grand Blanc, Michigan. USA.
Fisher Body, a subsidiary of General Motors, was one of the many firms that were responding to the President’s order to double the tank production schedule from 1000 to 2000 per month. The new plant was going to be 452000 square feet, some eight American football fields. Modelled on the Detroit Arsenal, Fisher’s plant would begin producing M4 medium tanks in July. The Pacific Car & Foundry, Ford and Federal Machine & Welder were the other companies added to the already impressive list. By the time the M3 production switched to the M4 at some convenient time in early 1942, and full production of the M4 begun, eleven plants would be building the new tanks.
The Medium tank T6 wooden mock-up had been approved by the Armored Force Board in May 1941, the pilot model had been completed at the Aberdeen Proving Ground in September 1941. The T6 was standardised as the Medium Tank M4 in October. The pilot model was being built by Lima Locomotive works, and would be ready for full testing in February. Pressed Steel and Pacific Car & Foundry, along with Lima would begin full production in March. These three companies would be using cast hulls, and the engines would be the Continental R-975 engine and the same bogies as the M3 Medium tank. The gun was to be the M2 75mm, with counterweights, until enough M3 75mm guns were available.
Once Fisher Body’s new factory was up and running, they would be making the M4A2 model of the tank. The main difference was having twin General Motors 6-71 diesel engines, Continental couldn’t provide enough of the radial engines for all the M4s planned. Other engine types would also have to sourced to meet the production numbers. Some tanks would have welded rather than cast armour, which would create yet another subtype.
Despite advice from the British, the first models (known as M4A1) would also have two fixed machine guns in the front hull. These would be of limited use and compromised the armour protection of the hull. The British had also asked for thicker armour, the 50mm in the hull was considered too vulnerable, some of the turret protection of 75mm was much better, but there was always going to be the problem of increasing armour would increase weight, making the engine struggle to keep up the desired speed on roads of around 25mph, about 15mph off road. The British also had requested that the Lend Lease models destined for the UK would have protected ammunition stowage. This was standard on the Valiant tank that the Americans had studied to help with the turret mechanism.
The first M4A1 built at the Lima plant would be handed over to the US Army, the second would be shipped to Britain for thorough testing. Members of the British Tank Mission, led by Major-General Douglas Pratt (Armoured Fighting Vehicles British Army Staff Washington) had attended the ground-breaking and was amused by the American alliteration of the Grand Blanc Tank Plant. In terms of size, efficiency and the speed of building a factory and starting production within such a short period of time, Fisher’s was a marvel. Pratt was better used to the smaller tank shops in Britain where sixty tanks per month was considered ‘big’. Here, once production was in full swing 180 tanks were expected to roll off the production line per month, that was enough tanks for a new British Armoured Brigade every month! It was no surprise to Pratt and his colleagues that the Americans weren't really prepared to listen to what the British had to say. The sheer muscle of American industry producing thousands of tanks per month was a confirmation to Pratt that Hitler and Tojo didn’t have a clue what was about to be unleashed upon them.
Fisher Body, a subsidiary of General Motors, was one of the many firms that were responding to the President’s order to double the tank production schedule from 1000 to 2000 per month. The new plant was going to be 452000 square feet, some eight American football fields. Modelled on the Detroit Arsenal, Fisher’s plant would begin producing M4 medium tanks in July. The Pacific Car & Foundry, Ford and Federal Machine & Welder were the other companies added to the already impressive list. By the time the M3 production switched to the M4 at some convenient time in early 1942, and full production of the M4 begun, eleven plants would be building the new tanks.
The Medium tank T6 wooden mock-up had been approved by the Armored Force Board in May 1941, the pilot model had been completed at the Aberdeen Proving Ground in September 1941. The T6 was standardised as the Medium Tank M4 in October. The pilot model was being built by Lima Locomotive works, and would be ready for full testing in February. Pressed Steel and Pacific Car & Foundry, along with Lima would begin full production in March. These three companies would be using cast hulls, and the engines would be the Continental R-975 engine and the same bogies as the M3 Medium tank. The gun was to be the M2 75mm, with counterweights, until enough M3 75mm guns were available.
Once Fisher Body’s new factory was up and running, they would be making the M4A2 model of the tank. The main difference was having twin General Motors 6-71 diesel engines, Continental couldn’t provide enough of the radial engines for all the M4s planned. Other engine types would also have to sourced to meet the production numbers. Some tanks would have welded rather than cast armour, which would create yet another subtype.
Despite advice from the British, the first models (known as M4A1) would also have two fixed machine guns in the front hull. These would be of limited use and compromised the armour protection of the hull. The British had also asked for thicker armour, the 50mm in the hull was considered too vulnerable, some of the turret protection of 75mm was much better, but there was always going to be the problem of increasing armour would increase weight, making the engine struggle to keep up the desired speed on roads of around 25mph, about 15mph off road. The British also had requested that the Lend Lease models destined for the UK would have protected ammunition stowage. This was standard on the Valiant tank that the Americans had studied to help with the turret mechanism.
The first M4A1 built at the Lima plant would be handed over to the US Army, the second would be shipped to Britain for thorough testing. Members of the British Tank Mission, led by Major-General Douglas Pratt (Armoured Fighting Vehicles British Army Staff Washington) had attended the ground-breaking and was amused by the American alliteration of the Grand Blanc Tank Plant. In terms of size, efficiency and the speed of building a factory and starting production within such a short period of time, Fisher’s was a marvel. Pratt was better used to the smaller tank shops in Britain where sixty tanks per month was considered ‘big’. Here, once production was in full swing 180 tanks were expected to roll off the production line per month, that was enough tanks for a new British Armoured Brigade every month! It was no surprise to Pratt and his colleagues that the Americans weren't really prepared to listen to what the British had to say. The sheer muscle of American industry producing thousands of tanks per month was a confirmation to Pratt that Hitler and Tojo didn’t have a clue what was about to be unleashed upon them.
Even doing a bit better than OTL they're barely above water financially at this point so they won't be able to afford it.
Derek Pullem
Donor
I'm not sure it does.
It's not losing huge amounts of tanks right now, the Western Desert campaign is over and losses are nowhere near as high (and the tanks are not as obsolete).
Until Italy or another side theatre kicks off the loss rate will be low and they can build up strength. Britain can only field so many tank brigades. Unless the UK is sending tanks to USSR and accepting US tanks in return (which would be crazy in this time line) then I suspect current capacity will be fine until the invasion of France. By which time hopefully air superiority and better tanks will make the loss rate even lower in combat.
Sure it's more efficient but perfect is the enemy of good enough.
Another thing to note (Which I think has been noted in this TL? Or a similiar one?) is that the UK just has less space. It's a lot easier to build an Eight-American-Football-Field Tank Plant if you just have that sort of undeveloped space in an area that already has good transport links etc.
Aye it's why I think production efficiency more than scale maybe the way to go for UK tank production. Though the fact that there have been more victories and fewer losses helps ITTL also that there is a more rational line of thought as well in production and development on the UK's part with Vickers and Sir John.
allanpcameron
Donor
We talked about bigger factories before, but during 1940/41 there was the slight problem of the Luftwaffe which made 'putting all your eggs in one basket' an unpopular idea at the time. Something Michigan didn't have to deal with. Also, the Americans had plenty of unemployed/not yet in the army in early 1942 which wasn't the case with British industry after two full years of war.
Allan
Allan
Britain's small but not so small that finding the site for a factory (even a really big one) is going to be an issue. Britain's small size also means it has a pretty dence and developed transport system and most parts of the country aren't far from a usable port.
The big problem is finding the cash to build the factory and to ship the machine tools over from the US (keeping fingers and toes crossed that the ships don't get sunk by U-boats).
Finding the workers is also going to hard. It's likely that they would have to be taken from other smaller tank factories. This means that it's likely that in addition to building th efactory they would also need to build thousands of new. homes. Even building basic accommodation like Nissan huts would be a challenge. This would all lead to a lengthy reduction in production while these workers gather, settle and gell together knot an effective team.
Finally the greatest advantage the US has over Britain is the complete lack of an air threat! A really big tank factory would be like painting a huge red Cross over the factory with giant luminous lights spelling out "Bomb Here Firtz!". Small is less effecient, but a good day at the office for the Luftwaffe doesnt spell disaster for UK tank production.
Not very much. Beyond the basics of making everything as simple to make as possible and separately working to increase the accuracy of work while simultaneously maximising tolerances so as to minimise the amount of fitting you have to do to really step up you need a new facility. There are economies of scale and efficiency gains that you can only get that from being in a large, purpose designed plant. A converted Victorian train engine factory is always going to be less effective. Others have apptly covered the problems of a actually building a large, new facility, especially the disruption as you move men and machinery from existing facilities and get production restarted but they do have a pause where demand will be relatively low especially as they are looking to end Valiant production and start Venom production in due course but it's really their only option other than simply accepting that British produced tanks will be more expensive than their US equivalents.