That would be sensible. Hopefully the tank version had the same or better performance.
Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.
- Thread starter allanpcameron
- Start date
Doesn't matter now, since it's no longer in use.
As to the 95mm (the follow-on to the 3"), I'm not sure it will see the light-of-day, as the 75mm ought to capable enough for most roles, including killing enemy tanks.
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I sent an email to Bovington a few years ago on this exact subject assuming one of their experts would know off the top of their heads (especially if it was common ammunition). I received a reply back from a gatekeeper that if I wanted to know I'd have to pay someone for their research time.
That does not appear to be the case:
Canadian Military Headquarters, London : C-5776 - Héritage
Canadian Military Headquarters, London : C-5776
heritage.canadiana.ca
The relevant sections, emphasis mine:
Smoke Weapons Nomenclature
The correct names of the R.A.C. support weapons are:
3" Tank Howitzer Mk. I.
3.7" Tank Mortar Mk. I.
and of the self protection weapons:2" Bomb Thrower MK I
4" Smoke Generator Discharger No.2 Mk. I.
These names must always be used when indenting for ammunition.The names 3" Mortar
3.7" Howitzer
2" Mortar
4" Mortar
are incorrect and the use of them has, on several occasions recently led to the issue of ammunition for artillery or infantry equipment.Such ammunition cannot be fired from Tank Weapons and is therefore useless.
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Ramontxo
Donor
But the earliest end of the war the African Theater will open the Med sooner and thst by itself will liberate a lot of tonnage
What's going through the Med will be military supply convoys that went round Africa Otl and supplies for Malta, nothing that will affect rationing in Britain.
Ramontxo
Donor
Yes but it save a lot of tonnages going through th Med. However I agree that rationing is not going away even in a better situation. It was tightened after the war (for balance of payments reasons I suspect)
I have a mental image of unstoppable tanks, prowling through the jungle, hunting down Japanese troops. Tilly tigers.
Ramp-Rat
Monthly Donor
On the question of Rationing in the UK, both during the war and post war.
One of the hardest things to understand for those who are not British, is that in Britain what you see is not necessarily what is going on. So while Charles the Third is the head of state, he has very little actual power, but does have significant power none the less. And so it was with rationing in the UK during the war, you really do have to look at what wasn’t rationed, and why to get the full picture. Britain had during WWII an extensive system of rationing, not only of food but clothing, fuels and domestic goods. But in this post I am only going to look at food rationing during WWII and in the post war period. And while there will be some differences between events ITTL and those of OTL, the similarities will outweigh any small differences. The reason for the introduction of rationing were simple, since the late Georgian period the British isles had not produced all the food stuffs it required, and had relied on increasing imports of feed the nation. This meant that when the Germans started to impose a blockade on Britain, the government given its WWI experience decided to introduce an ever increasing system of rationing.
The stated aim of which was to ensure the fair distribution of food and goods to the population, while at the same time reducing imports to only those essential and freeing up shipping for essential war supplies. And the measures taken were extensive, with bans on the importation of some fresh food stuffs, tropical fruits and citrus, hot climates fruits, you want pineapple, you can get it as long as it’s dried or canned. Beef which had normally been bought in chilled and hanging as a half carcass, now had to be frozen, dried or canned. So let us look at the system of food rationing in Britain during the war. Food was divided into four groups, unrationed, rationed by points, by value and a fixed amount. Unrationed food in Britain fell into different groups, fresh fruit and vegetables were only rationed by availability, and other than for root vegetables this meant seasonal, while dried and canned were domestically produced only. Fresh fish didn’t have any restrictions, other than price and the availability of transport, the extensive pre war fish trains that had run at high speeds to move fresh fish around the country were stopped, and there were strict rules about the distances that fresh fish could travel. Domestic preserved fish salted, smoked, pickled and canned were freely available, but imported preserved fish such as canned salmon, tuna and sardines were subjected to the points system.
So let us look at meat rationing, which at first glance appears to be simply, each individual was allowed to spend a fixed amount on meat each week and was free to choose what meat they bought, subject to availability. However the first caveat is one third of the purchase had to be preserved, which at the time principally meant tinned corned beef and spam, with occasional American tinned sausage meat. However what is meant by meat, well for the ration this was, beef, veal, mutton, lamb and pork, however ham and bacon were dealt with separately and a part of your fixed ration. And this is were the what wasn’t rationed comes into play, offal, poultry, wildfowl and game were all of ration, so if you could afford them and they were available you could have as much as you liked. If you had the money, contacts and the taste, you could supplement your meat diet with a mixture of chicken, partridge, rabbit, hare, venison, duck, goose, and various offals, such a kidney, liver, heart and the more plebeian trip. There was also horse meat, principally sold as pet meat for cats and dogs, but for the less picky or principled a nice substitute for beef. The same was also true of eggs, hens eggs and dried eggs were strictly rationed during the war, with only a fixed number available to civilians each month. However there was no restriction on the following, quail, duck, goose or seagull eggs, which if you could get hold off them, you could purchase as many of them as you want.
There are in addition more examples of similar work arounds available to those in the know, or with more catholic tastes. Just as few for example include cheese, tea, milk and others, all of which could be avoided if you knew how. The principle effect of this was on the middle class, who lacked the contacts, resources or tastes, plus their general high regard of the law, and their desire to avoid gaining a police record. If you were a member of the Northern Working Class, you would be used to eating tripe, and might not have the objections to eating some forms of offal that others had. For the members of the aristocracy and the upper classes, game and waterfowl were a common thing, along with some of the more unusual forms of cheese and milk. Our late Queen whose mother and father, the King and Queen during the war, and who made a very public statement of following the rationing regulations. Remembers that her wartime diet included a lot of rabbit and venison, which came from the Windsor estate. American visitors to the Royal Household noted that the food they were served was very poor, and there was a distinct lack of alcohol on offer. Note I seriously doubt that the King who was a known very heavy smoker, ever restricted his consumption of cigarettes to that imposed on his subjects.
Britain was very lucky that at no time did it have to impose rationing on ether potatoes or bread during the war. While the flower that was used in the production of bread was very different from that pre war or now. But it was only for a short time post war that as a result of external factors that led to bread being rationed for a short time. The difference between rationing in Britain and Germany was significant, both nations were subject to blockade, and both countries relied on imported food to make up their rations. However Britain imported its food from nations that didn’t have to impose restrictions on their own people, while Germany tended to strip other nations of their food supply, with no regard to the feeding of the locals. Britain while it did introduce a number of foods that the British hadn’t previously been accustomed to, the prime examples being spam and powdered eggs. Germany however had to invent a number of substitutes foods, to try to make up for lack of imports caused by the blockade, and they had started this pre war. The most famous of these was the wartime ersatz coffee that contained no coffee, were as in Britain tea while rationed was the real thing. Note coffee other than the infamous camp coffee essence, was never rationed in Britain, and SOE frequently sent packets of coffee beans into occupied territories to be used as bribes.
With the end of the war, not only did the American president Truman order ships at sea carrying essential supplies to Britain to turn around and sail back to the US. The Americans demanded that as from now the British made full payment on all goods imported from the United States. There was the additional problem of supplying food to the recently liberated territories and the British sector of conquered Germany. This was the primary reason why the British had to introduce bread rationing post war, along with the shortage of shipping. Once Labour had gotten into power, you had an ideological problem, there were many among the left of the Labour Party, who wanted to retain rationing, as a way to improve the health of the nation, and ensure what they saw as a fair distribution of food. There were as there is today those of the extreme left and right, who like the idea of imposing their values on the rest of society. And this along with the problems of paying for the imports, while building a new Jerusalem in Britain, made the continuation of rationing, very much an ideological idea in the post war Labour Party. Unfortunately for them these ideas didn’t sit well with the majority of the population, especially women who were sick and tired of trying to juggle the various ration books, with the demands of the family and their lives. And so eventually rationing was abolished, however the process by which it was done, meant that this was a disaster. Had Britain from 1946, slowly increased the ration in stages as more food became available, and at the same time reduced the various regulations on food production, the results would have in my opinion been far better.
RR.
One of the hardest things to understand for those who are not British, is that in Britain what you see is not necessarily what is going on. So while Charles the Third is the head of state, he has very little actual power, but does have significant power none the less. And so it was with rationing in the UK during the war, you really do have to look at what wasn’t rationed, and why to get the full picture. Britain had during WWII an extensive system of rationing, not only of food but clothing, fuels and domestic goods. But in this post I am only going to look at food rationing during WWII and in the post war period. And while there will be some differences between events ITTL and those of OTL, the similarities will outweigh any small differences. The reason for the introduction of rationing were simple, since the late Georgian period the British isles had not produced all the food stuffs it required, and had relied on increasing imports of feed the nation. This meant that when the Germans started to impose a blockade on Britain, the government given its WWI experience decided to introduce an ever increasing system of rationing.
The stated aim of which was to ensure the fair distribution of food and goods to the population, while at the same time reducing imports to only those essential and freeing up shipping for essential war supplies. And the measures taken were extensive, with bans on the importation of some fresh food stuffs, tropical fruits and citrus, hot climates fruits, you want pineapple, you can get it as long as it’s dried or canned. Beef which had normally been bought in chilled and hanging as a half carcass, now had to be frozen, dried or canned. So let us look at the system of food rationing in Britain during the war. Food was divided into four groups, unrationed, rationed by points, by value and a fixed amount. Unrationed food in Britain fell into different groups, fresh fruit and vegetables were only rationed by availability, and other than for root vegetables this meant seasonal, while dried and canned were domestically produced only. Fresh fish didn’t have any restrictions, other than price and the availability of transport, the extensive pre war fish trains that had run at high speeds to move fresh fish around the country were stopped, and there were strict rules about the distances that fresh fish could travel. Domestic preserved fish salted, smoked, pickled and canned were freely available, but imported preserved fish such as canned salmon, tuna and sardines were subjected to the points system.
So let us look at meat rationing, which at first glance appears to be simply, each individual was allowed to spend a fixed amount on meat each week and was free to choose what meat they bought, subject to availability. However the first caveat is one third of the purchase had to be preserved, which at the time principally meant tinned corned beef and spam, with occasional American tinned sausage meat. However what is meant by meat, well for the ration this was, beef, veal, mutton, lamb and pork, however ham and bacon were dealt with separately and a part of your fixed ration. And this is were the what wasn’t rationed comes into play, offal, poultry, wildfowl and game were all of ration, so if you could afford them and they were available you could have as much as you liked. If you had the money, contacts and the taste, you could supplement your meat diet with a mixture of chicken, partridge, rabbit, hare, venison, duck, goose, and various offals, such a kidney, liver, heart and the more plebeian trip. There was also horse meat, principally sold as pet meat for cats and dogs, but for the less picky or principled a nice substitute for beef. The same was also true of eggs, hens eggs and dried eggs were strictly rationed during the war, with only a fixed number available to civilians each month. However there was no restriction on the following, quail, duck, goose or seagull eggs, which if you could get hold off them, you could purchase as many of them as you want.
There are in addition more examples of similar work arounds available to those in the know, or with more catholic tastes. Just as few for example include cheese, tea, milk and others, all of which could be avoided if you knew how. The principle effect of this was on the middle class, who lacked the contacts, resources or tastes, plus their general high regard of the law, and their desire to avoid gaining a police record. If you were a member of the Northern Working Class, you would be used to eating tripe, and might not have the objections to eating some forms of offal that others had. For the members of the aristocracy and the upper classes, game and waterfowl were a common thing, along with some of the more unusual forms of cheese and milk. Our late Queen whose mother and father, the King and Queen during the war, and who made a very public statement of following the rationing regulations. Remembers that her wartime diet included a lot of rabbit and venison, which came from the Windsor estate. American visitors to the Royal Household noted that the food they were served was very poor, and there was a distinct lack of alcohol on offer. Note I seriously doubt that the King who was a known very heavy smoker, ever restricted his consumption of cigarettes to that imposed on his subjects.
Britain was very lucky that at no time did it have to impose rationing on ether potatoes or bread during the war. While the flower that was used in the production of bread was very different from that pre war or now. But it was only for a short time post war that as a result of external factors that led to bread being rationed for a short time. The difference between rationing in Britain and Germany was significant, both nations were subject to blockade, and both countries relied on imported food to make up their rations. However Britain imported its food from nations that didn’t have to impose restrictions on their own people, while Germany tended to strip other nations of their food supply, with no regard to the feeding of the locals. Britain while it did introduce a number of foods that the British hadn’t previously been accustomed to, the prime examples being spam and powdered eggs. Germany however had to invent a number of substitutes foods, to try to make up for lack of imports caused by the blockade, and they had started this pre war. The most famous of these was the wartime ersatz coffee that contained no coffee, were as in Britain tea while rationed was the real thing. Note coffee other than the infamous camp coffee essence, was never rationed in Britain, and SOE frequently sent packets of coffee beans into occupied territories to be used as bribes.
With the end of the war, not only did the American president Truman order ships at sea carrying essential supplies to Britain to turn around and sail back to the US. The Americans demanded that as from now the British made full payment on all goods imported from the United States. There was the additional problem of supplying food to the recently liberated territories and the British sector of conquered Germany. This was the primary reason why the British had to introduce bread rationing post war, along with the shortage of shipping. Once Labour had gotten into power, you had an ideological problem, there were many among the left of the Labour Party, who wanted to retain rationing, as a way to improve the health of the nation, and ensure what they saw as a fair distribution of food. There were as there is today those of the extreme left and right, who like the idea of imposing their values on the rest of society. And this along with the problems of paying for the imports, while building a new Jerusalem in Britain, made the continuation of rationing, very much an ideological idea in the post war Labour Party. Unfortunately for them these ideas didn’t sit well with the majority of the population, especially women who were sick and tired of trying to juggle the various ration books, with the demands of the family and their lives. And so eventually rationing was abolished, however the process by which it was done, meant that this was a disaster. Had Britain from 1946, slowly increased the ration in stages as more food became available, and at the same time reduced the various regulations on food production, the results would have in my opinion been far better.
RR.
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Ramp-Rat
Monthly Donor
Restaurants in Britain did face their own set of strict restrictions, there was a maximum price that they could charge five shillings. And if they served bread it counted as a course, and there was a maximum of three courses. In theory a restaurant could only serve you one meal, on any given day, and there were a number of restaurants and their customers who were charged under this regulation. Yes you could get around some of these restrictions, the classic way was to go to an oyster bar for your starter, then on too a different restaurant for your main meal. But even then you could find yourself eating turnip in pastry as you main course, given that even the top well known restaurants had difficulty getting hold of meat.
RR.
Bad dragon, no more coffee for you this week.I'm a dragon, I'm allowed
1 February 1942. Ipoh, Malaya.
allanpcameron
Donor
1 February 1942. Ipoh, Malaya.
Major Tom Craig didn’t know it, but his tank at Arras had come within inches of killing Erwin Rommel, and had killed his aide. As a Lieutenant in D Company 7th Bn RTR, Craig’s leadership had won him a DSO and rapid promotion, returning from other RTR units to command the same D Company. The situation approaching Ipoh was a different proposition to that at Arras.
Firstly his Company was supporting 53rd Infantry Brigade, and unlike the Durham Light Infantry at Arras, his tanks and the men of 5th & 6th Bns Norfolk Regiment and 2nd Bn Cambridgeshire Regiment, had had time to practice tank and infantry cooperation. All three infantry Battalions were fresh, and the new telephone link from the rear of the tank to the turret allowed communication between tanks and infantry. Craig himself was in a command tank, with a radio set tuned to his Company and 7th Bn RTR HQ, and another radio linked to the 53rd Infantry Brigade HQ, and the Royal Artillery Regiment supporting the attack.
Secondly, unlike Arras, this was a prepared attack against a dug in enemy. The encounter battle at Arras had been confusing and his tanks were isolated, ultimately working alone. D Company had taken the heaviest casualties of that day in Arras, as Rommel had organised artillery batteries to engage the tanks directly. Here, the Royal Artillery Forward Observation Post Officer was riding in the other command tank, usually Craig’s second-in-command’s tank. The extra space for the radios meant that the loader for the 2-pdr had been deleted, and the point of the command tanks was to command, its guns only really for self-defence. This wasn’t a battle with the tanks working alone, this was a battle that combined infantry, artillery and armour together to beat the enemy.
Thirdly, the Japanese were proving to be a very different type of enemy from the Germans. Even the SS troops at Arras had known when to give up and run. Not so, the Japanese. ‘Fanatical’ seemed the best description for them. The few Japanese who’d been captured, usually the wounded, were in a poor state physically. The Imperial Japanese Army didn’t seem to have anything like the same logistical support that the British Army expected. There seemed to be a particular problem with food, as both the living and the dead seemed undernourished.
Fighting to the last man and last bullet didn’t seem enough for the Japanese soldiers. Even out of ammunition they would charge the British tanks and men with bayonets, the officers with swords. It wasn’t standard practice, but the experience of 11th Bn RTR had taught that each tank should have half a section of infantry (four men) assigned to it. For all the lack of food the Japanese had, they seemed to have plenty of entrenching tools. They tended to have dug pretty deep dug outs or foxholes, and camouflaged the top. From the first day of the battle a couple of men on the back of each tank were carrying extra hand grenades. When the tank went over foxhole, the men would drop two grenades into the hole. Alternatively, the tank would grind itself down over the mouth of the foxhole to crush and bury its inhabitants. At first no one had really believed what the old hands in 11th Battalion had said. Then on the first day of the fighting a couple of tanks were disabled by Japanese troops appearing from behind with tins of petrol which they poured over the rear of the tank and set it on fire. Once this had been seen, the practice of each tank having its own half section had been taken up in earnest.
As well as the two grenadiers, at least one of the four infantry was armed with a Sten or Thompson submachine gun. Keeping the desperate Japanese troops off the tank was often a close-range exchange for which the submachine gun was the best weapon. Fourthly the Bren Gun on a mount meant originally for AA work, was manned and used primarily when the tank’s own Besa MG was being reloaded or serviced in some way.
The other lesson from 11th Bn RTR’s experience was also being followed was for each troop of three tanks to work together. As a last resort, having another tank able to use its machine gun or Bren to clear the enemy off a tank that was being overrun, was necessary. The fact that one of three tanks in the troop was armed with the Close Support gun meant that this was the one that needed the most protection. The HE projectile gave it the ability to give direct fire support to the infantry was made it central to the troops’ mission.
Craig’s radio tuned to his Squadron net warned him that a particularly stubborn Japanese position was holding up progress. The RA forward observation post was already calling down a bombardment on the map position. Looking at his map, Craig contacted another troop commander and ordered him to prepare to flank the Japanese position. The log and soil bunkers thrown together by the Japanese troops weren't too much of a struggle for the Close Support tanks to demolish. The weight of shot of the 3-inch gun was just under 14 pounds, and it didn’t take too many rounds before the bunker was silenced.
Because of the Japanese use of petrol to attack tanks, thought had been given to fighting fire with fire. Craig wasn’t aware of it, but some kind of flame-throwing tank was being tested under the watchful eye of Major General Percy Hobart. The way the Japanese defended was infuriating to the British soldiers. Fighting to the death, not surrendering seemed to them somehow inhuman. Often British casualties happened at the very end of a contact, with suicidal Japanese efforts. The idea of burning the enemy out was tempting, especially from within the protective armour of a tank, but the range would need to be great enough, probably over 100 yards to be really effective.
It was the 2nd Bn Cambridgeshire Regiment which were being held up, and requesting more support. The Artillery bombardment was brief and fairly accurate, and with six tanks pouring fire onto the Japanese position, the ‘Fen Tigers’ were able to make progress. It was a gruelling process, and it would have to repeated time and time again, but it was progress.
Major Tom Craig didn’t know it, but his tank at Arras had come within inches of killing Erwin Rommel, and had killed his aide. As a Lieutenant in D Company 7th Bn RTR, Craig’s leadership had won him a DSO and rapid promotion, returning from other RTR units to command the same D Company. The situation approaching Ipoh was a different proposition to that at Arras.
Firstly his Company was supporting 53rd Infantry Brigade, and unlike the Durham Light Infantry at Arras, his tanks and the men of 5th & 6th Bns Norfolk Regiment and 2nd Bn Cambridgeshire Regiment, had had time to practice tank and infantry cooperation. All three infantry Battalions were fresh, and the new telephone link from the rear of the tank to the turret allowed communication between tanks and infantry. Craig himself was in a command tank, with a radio set tuned to his Company and 7th Bn RTR HQ, and another radio linked to the 53rd Infantry Brigade HQ, and the Royal Artillery Regiment supporting the attack.
Secondly, unlike Arras, this was a prepared attack against a dug in enemy. The encounter battle at Arras had been confusing and his tanks were isolated, ultimately working alone. D Company had taken the heaviest casualties of that day in Arras, as Rommel had organised artillery batteries to engage the tanks directly. Here, the Royal Artillery Forward Observation Post Officer was riding in the other command tank, usually Craig’s second-in-command’s tank. The extra space for the radios meant that the loader for the 2-pdr had been deleted, and the point of the command tanks was to command, its guns only really for self-defence. This wasn’t a battle with the tanks working alone, this was a battle that combined infantry, artillery and armour together to beat the enemy.
Thirdly, the Japanese were proving to be a very different type of enemy from the Germans. Even the SS troops at Arras had known when to give up and run. Not so, the Japanese. ‘Fanatical’ seemed the best description for them. The few Japanese who’d been captured, usually the wounded, were in a poor state physically. The Imperial Japanese Army didn’t seem to have anything like the same logistical support that the British Army expected. There seemed to be a particular problem with food, as both the living and the dead seemed undernourished.
Fighting to the last man and last bullet didn’t seem enough for the Japanese soldiers. Even out of ammunition they would charge the British tanks and men with bayonets, the officers with swords. It wasn’t standard practice, but the experience of 11th Bn RTR had taught that each tank should have half a section of infantry (four men) assigned to it. For all the lack of food the Japanese had, they seemed to have plenty of entrenching tools. They tended to have dug pretty deep dug outs or foxholes, and camouflaged the top. From the first day of the battle a couple of men on the back of each tank were carrying extra hand grenades. When the tank went over foxhole, the men would drop two grenades into the hole. Alternatively, the tank would grind itself down over the mouth of the foxhole to crush and bury its inhabitants. At first no one had really believed what the old hands in 11th Battalion had said. Then on the first day of the fighting a couple of tanks were disabled by Japanese troops appearing from behind with tins of petrol which they poured over the rear of the tank and set it on fire. Once this had been seen, the practice of each tank having its own half section had been taken up in earnest.
As well as the two grenadiers, at least one of the four infantry was armed with a Sten or Thompson submachine gun. Keeping the desperate Japanese troops off the tank was often a close-range exchange for which the submachine gun was the best weapon. Fourthly the Bren Gun on a mount meant originally for AA work, was manned and used primarily when the tank’s own Besa MG was being reloaded or serviced in some way.
The other lesson from 11th Bn RTR’s experience was also being followed was for each troop of three tanks to work together. As a last resort, having another tank able to use its machine gun or Bren to clear the enemy off a tank that was being overrun, was necessary. The fact that one of three tanks in the troop was armed with the Close Support gun meant that this was the one that needed the most protection. The HE projectile gave it the ability to give direct fire support to the infantry was made it central to the troops’ mission.
Craig’s radio tuned to his Squadron net warned him that a particularly stubborn Japanese position was holding up progress. The RA forward observation post was already calling down a bombardment on the map position. Looking at his map, Craig contacted another troop commander and ordered him to prepare to flank the Japanese position. The log and soil bunkers thrown together by the Japanese troops weren't too much of a struggle for the Close Support tanks to demolish. The weight of shot of the 3-inch gun was just under 14 pounds, and it didn’t take too many rounds before the bunker was silenced.
Because of the Japanese use of petrol to attack tanks, thought had been given to fighting fire with fire. Craig wasn’t aware of it, but some kind of flame-throwing tank was being tested under the watchful eye of Major General Percy Hobart. The way the Japanese defended was infuriating to the British soldiers. Fighting to the death, not surrendering seemed to them somehow inhuman. Often British casualties happened at the very end of a contact, with suicidal Japanese efforts. The idea of burning the enemy out was tempting, especially from within the protective armour of a tank, but the range would need to be great enough, probably over 100 yards to be really effective.
It was the 2nd Bn Cambridgeshire Regiment which were being held up, and requesting more support. The Artillery bombardment was brief and fairly accurate, and with six tanks pouring fire onto the Japanese position, the ‘Fen Tigers’ were able to make progress. It was a gruelling process, and it would have to repeated time and time again, but it was progress.
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Well looks like the Japanese are having a really bad time. That said nothing more dangerous (or annoying) then suicidal fanatics with nothing left to lose.
True. Anybody sane would be begging to surrender to get medical treatment. Sadly the IJA is anything but at this time.