And Toomey being the nominee could lead to Joe Hoeffel winning PA, and potentially PA going to Wellstone.
Simba Roars
- Thread starter Vidal
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And Toomey being the nominee could lead to Joe Hoeffel winning PA, and potentially PA going to Wellstone.
Thanks to everyone for their kind words. I am excited to get into McCain's second term - where things will really get interested.
@PresidentZinn: I'm conflicted, and certainly open to changing this around. Though, I believe that if Toomey wins Specter, there is a good chance Joe Hoeffel wins the general. One of the main themes of this timeline is how the McCain presidency softens the partisanship that began under Clinton and escalated under Bush (and eventually Obama). The Toomey primary goes against that narrative, and I think there's an argument that even if McCain is more moderate than Bush, he is more popular than Bush was at this point. But I also see your point that his popularity with the public aside, the Right may be more energized to view Toomey as a check on McCain himself.
As for Carnahan, my understanding is he died in a plane crash the night before the 2000 presidential debate. I'm not totally sure if he was going there? Either way, I tend not to butterfly away specific weather occurrences, and it seems that plane trip needed to happen as part of his campaign - regardless of the McCain/Bush swap. With Wellstone's death being further from the POD, I felt okay changing that because it seemed plausible that - two years from the start of the timeline - events would have changed enough that Wellstone's campaign schedule would look differently, and the plane crash wouldn't have necessarily occurred. ITTL, Carnahan died, Jean Carnahan won the seat, and Jim Talent replaced her in 2002 (which, I'm pretty sure, is the OTL course of events).
@PresidentZinn: I'm conflicted, and certainly open to changing this around. Though, I believe that if Toomey wins Specter, there is a good chance Joe Hoeffel wins the general. One of the main themes of this timeline is how the McCain presidency softens the partisanship that began under Clinton and escalated under Bush (and eventually Obama). The Toomey primary goes against that narrative, and I think there's an argument that even if McCain is more moderate than Bush, he is more popular than Bush was at this point. But I also see your point that his popularity with the public aside, the Right may be more energized to view Toomey as a check on McCain himself.
As for Carnahan, my understanding is he died in a plane crash the night before the 2000 presidential debate. I'm not totally sure if he was going there? Either way, I tend not to butterfly away specific weather occurrences, and it seems that plane trip needed to happen as part of his campaign - regardless of the McCain/Bush swap. With Wellstone's death being further from the POD, I felt okay changing that because it seemed plausible that - two years from the start of the timeline - events would have changed enough that Wellstone's campaign schedule would look differently, and the plane crash wouldn't have necessarily occurred. ITTL, Carnahan died, Jean Carnahan won the seat, and Jim Talent replaced her in 2002 (which, I'm pretty sure, is the OTL course of events).
Let's change it around then. Have the Democrats win PA and the Republicans win WI in '04. This results in 300 Electoral Votes. And should you decide to have Wellstone win PA and WI, that's still 290 Electoral Votes for McCain, which is 4 more than what Bush got IOTL.
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Wellstone winning Wisconsin is intentional. It was close, but he is from a neighboring state and I imagine him campaigning heavily there — playing up his Midwestern connection.
The world-building articles after the election are excellent and make for intriguing reading. Obama is not the only African-American in the Senate and is the junior one of the two, Landrieu’s VP nomination has raised her profile and could contest with Clinton. The primary field come 2008 will possibly be wider and maybe more diverse. I agree with the comments about the progressive wing having stronger groundwork due to Wellstone’s nomination vs OTL, perhaps in a generally less polarised political climate than OTL a more radical platform will find greater support and become more mainstream...
I think Wellstone’s points about McCain’s first term being full of half measures could be used by Democrats in his second term to great effect if a general feeling of inertia in the administration takes hold. If the administration handles the 2007-08 Financial Crisis badly the impact of that criticism will only be amplified.
I think Wellstone’s points about McCain’s first term being full of half measures could be used by Democrats in his second term to great effect if a general feeling of inertia in the administration takes hold. If the administration handles the 2007-08 Financial Crisis badly the impact of that criticism will only be amplified.
Seeing an Obama vs. Ford race would be interesting! Don’t recall that in a TL.
He was not - he was on his way to a voter registration event in the bootheel of southeastern Missouri.
Is Dan Rather still at CBS? Without the Bush National Guard memo scandal, he, Mary Mapes, and the others who lost their jobs/had their careers shortened are probably still there (1)...
(1) Regardless of what one thinks, IMO, Mary Mapes should have been more skeptical of the documents, given that her source had told several different stories about how he'd gotten them (and had admitted to destroying the originals; that should have been a huge red flag for her)--if she runs the story without the documents, she probably still has her job at CBS...
(1) Regardless of what one thinks, IMO, Mary Mapes should have been more skeptical of the documents, given that her source had told several different stories about how he'd gotten them (and had admitted to destroying the originals; that should have been a huge red flag for her)--if she runs the story without the documents, she probably still has her job at CBS...
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Totally agree. Perhaps Ford could highlight his experience relative to Obama and push the fact that he had won in a pretty red state, both strong arguments for electability.
End of timeline
Friends,
I've made the difficult decision to end this timeline here. I have enjoyed the Simba Roars world immensely, and I was eager to share stories about McCain's second term -- a heroic Katrina recovery led by a competent Elizabeth Dole, a continuous Hamlet situation concerning Iraq, and the 2008 election of Beau Biden and Harold Ford, Jr. There was even a dramatic scandal ahead of the 2006 Midterms. Unfortunately, I don't see a way to do so without this timeline drifting into the gray area of current politics. While many of the main characters - McCain, Dole, Biden, and Ford - are dead or retired from public life, many remain active. It would be impossible to tell this story without including folks like Nancy Pelosi and Mitch McConnell.
When I began the timeline, I did so under the interpretation that as long as you were giving current figures an alternate career and story, you were safe. It now seems that any mention of people currently in public life, including McCain's daughter Meghan and a host of Senators I hoped to create subplots around throughout Biden's presidency, is grounds for having the thread locked.
I am happy to do an AMA for people with questions about what I had planned, but I think a full narrative continuation of the timeline is unwise.
-Vidal
I've made the difficult decision to end this timeline here. I have enjoyed the Simba Roars world immensely, and I was eager to share stories about McCain's second term -- a heroic Katrina recovery led by a competent Elizabeth Dole, a continuous Hamlet situation concerning Iraq, and the 2008 election of Beau Biden and Harold Ford, Jr. There was even a dramatic scandal ahead of the 2006 Midterms. Unfortunately, I don't see a way to do so without this timeline drifting into the gray area of current politics. While many of the main characters - McCain, Dole, Biden, and Ford - are dead or retired from public life, many remain active. It would be impossible to tell this story without including folks like Nancy Pelosi and Mitch McConnell.
When I began the timeline, I did so under the interpretation that as long as you were giving current figures an alternate career and story, you were safe. It now seems that any mention of people currently in public life, including McCain's daughter Meghan and a host of Senators I hoped to create subplots around throughout Biden's presidency, is grounds for having the thread locked.
I am happy to do an AMA for people with questions about what I had planned, but I think a full narrative continuation of the timeline is unwise.
-Vidal
the picture you have at the begining of the chapter is gone so here is one that fits the theme nicely
Trump Out of 9/11 Rebuilding Effort
BY MICHAELA REINS || NOVEMBER 22, 2001
(New York, NY) -- In the wake of the tragic attacks on New York on September 11th, Mayor Rudy Giuliani has been working on a public-private partnership to help with rebuilding the World Trade Center and the Empire State Building (and surrounding areas) that were damaged during the attacks. Giuliani called the rebuilding of New York a top priority for his administration and vowed to have the city on track to rebuild by the time he leaves office next month. To help with the rebuilding effort, Giuliani brought in millionaire real estate developer Donald Trump who has a reputation that precedes him. The selection of Trump was panned by some but lauded by others who felt Trump's grandiose personality would help bring needed attention to just how severe the rebuilding effort will be.
Today, however, the Times has learned that Trump is out of the project after disagreements over the project around the Empire State Building. Sources close to the internal disputes claim that Trump wanted his name in the branding of the building. Trump himself confirmed that the naming of the building was one of the reasons for the falling out. Giuliani has repeatedly said publicly and privately that the new Empire State Building will be named as the Liberty Tower. Trump wanted it named the "Trump Freedom Tower" and has since left the project. The mayor said that Trump's departure was "unfortunate," believing that he could have been an asset to the rebuilding efforts. Other members of the commission, who asked to speak on the condition of anonymity because they need to work with Trump in the future, said they believed that Trump's actions were selfish, his temper explosive, and his comments unhelpful. One member said his leaving was a "blessing" for the project.
Senator Hillary Clinton commented on the story by saying she hopes "all New Yorkers" would come together and support the city's efforts to rebuild. She did not explicitly call out Trump but said it was important that the project "reflect the totality of the city" and not one particular individual. Senator Schumer's office declined to comment for this article.
After news broke that Trump would be leaving the project, he held a press conference at Trump Tower where he criticized Giuliani's leadership, calling him "weak." "People look at Rudy and they say oh what a great guy, oh what a leader - he isn't. He's weak. Let me tell ya, if I were mayor this attack would not have happened. New York would have been safe. I like mayors who keep us safe, alright?" Trump then admitted he was no longer involved in the project but argued it wasn't his fault. "Look, I was not doing this to help me. Frankly, it doesn't help me. I didn't need to be involved in this project, okay? But I did it cuz I wanted to be a nice guy. I didn't lose anyone, but I know people who did. It's tough. It's sad. I wanted to help - they didn't want me to help. Right now, I have the tallest building in lower Manhattan. That's just a fact. I'm hearing that, okay? A lot of people are talking about that. I wanted to be involved in the rebuilding, but if they didn't want me - fine. I don't care. It wasn't going to help me anyway."
Since the press conference, Trump's remarks have been criticized by many for unfairly blaming the attacks on Giuliani and for his apparent disregard for helping the city rebuild. Governor George Pataki called the remarks "disgraceful" and said that it was unfair to blame the attacks on anyone but Al Qaeda. "I am thankful for the real leaders in New York and around the country who are stepping up to help us move on," Pataki said.
Ye.. if you plan to continue it sometime later, you can ask Calbear, Dom, Burton, Ian etc. to move the thread to the Chat