My statement was unclear "Beyond" Somaliland was intended as nothing farther away than Rome rather than "other than that one location". Yes, I could see Italy taking everything that isn't nailed down by a country that they can't afford to annoy that is along the Med coast (including the Adriatic Coast) in either *this* war or the future Italo-Ottoman War. But I simply can't see them wanting anything in Africa South of the Sahara, or in Asia beyond Arabia or *anywhere* in the Americas.
Sequel de Mayo (Cinco de Mayo, Vol. II)
- Thread starter KingSweden24
- Start date
I'mm still rooting for Haiti joining the Central European War as a co-beligerent - I'd love to see them annex the French Carribean and also get reperation payments from the French government (both for a nice bit of historic irony AND because it would really help shore up Haitian finances and, hopefully, help stabilize their government)
Simply being able to completely get rid of the the payments that they were making to France at that point would help the Haitian economy. Haiti joining the CEW as a co-beligerent has strong vibes of Japan in WWI. But I'm not sure what they could *really* provide other than a base for Germany which they'll have in Venezuela.
A base, obviously, which is important. Probably some men, depending on the state of the Haitian military at this point (Haitian presidents in OTL had a weird tendeny of strengthening or trying to subvert the military as the political winds blew - likely as a result of most coups arising from differing militerary factions). Seeing as how Haiti is ... slightly more stable in this ATL (having a hostile CSA to the North of you, and a questionably hostile Spanish Dominica next door, will do that. There's a definite sense of having to stick together, lest the wolves get you) its safe to say that the military hasn't been undermined too greatly. They'd likely be able to offer SOME support to German operations or, at the very least, help to occupy and pacify French possessions in the region once they're taken (I suspect that having Haitian boots on the ground would be more calming to Afro-Carribbean populations on the islands than German ones - and its a good way to make sure that the French white population decide to accept a friendly off by the German navy to ship them somewhere - anywhere - else)
But yeah, getting rid of the French payments would be a HUGE deal. If Haiti is able to pick up some territory and potential reperations out of the deal: all the better! (And, really, Haiti is the best option to divying up those territories after the war. Germany isn't going to want them; not really. And even if the Vaterland DID want to pick up some islands, the US is unlikely to look too fondly at that; especially after that weird Amero-German dustup a few decades ago. Meanwhile, Italy doesn't have the sort of force projection to be able to administer and hold the islands, even if they wanted them. So: you either let France keep them (which is fine, but not really the best option), sell them to the US (who is already paying off their LAST war, has proven to be trouble in the past and ... ick. Do you really want to strengthen a potential rival down the road?) or let Haiti have them (thereby letting you paint yourself as a defender of small nations, winning diplomatic browny points i nthe process, and probably win the eternal loyaly of a nation you've already been putting resources into and which could easily drift into the US sphere otherwise.)
So, yeah: Greater Haiti really does make the most sense in these circumstances - especially if Haiti is able to take part and spill a token amount of blood to really justify it . The fact that its also a scenerio I have rarely seen pop up on these boards, AND is a bit of kharmatic leveling for how Kentuky probably goes down ... well, it just sweetens the pot.
Meanwhile Colombia revolts against France and Venezuela revolts against Germany.
Boom!, GAW 2: Caribbean Boogaloo.
Sensing weakness, Haiti goes on the move, subjugating BOTH nations and annexing them into itself - creating the Third(?) Haitian Empire
Viv Anpi Ayisyen!!!!!!!
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I know it is very implausible but I'm pulling for a scenario where Haitian troops are used as part of the occupation force in the CSA. Can you imagine the delicious meltdown from the CSA if that happens? Their tears would refill Lake Mead.
Um. Not only hasn't the Hoover Dam been built (though within pre-war US territory), it is unlikely to be built at the same level with Mexico being more able to insist on war levels that reach the Gulf of California, the Elwood Mead didn't even start working for the US Bureau of Reclamation until 1924...
Not many US Seas that are already saline that could use expansion, I think you are limited to the Salton Sea (though that depends on Colorado River Flow) and the Great Salt Lake. Personally, I'd go with the second, so I'd personally go with
"Can you imagine the delicious meltdown from the CSA if that happens? Their tears would turn the Great Salt Lake back into Lake Bonneville." (Of course that would flood out most of inhabited Utah, but sacrifices must be made)
The United States, even recovering from the war would still be able to pay *far* more than the Haitians can. And the US and Germany, IMO, aren't *that* much at loggerheads. The Monroe Doctrine likely doesn't even get mentioned post war and my guess is that the Germans will burn diplomatic capital getting the US to close the Canal to French warships. I'm just afraid this may be beyond Haiti's abilities at this point. They are better off than they were in OTL, but that is an *Incredibly* low bar.
You all are missing the obvious fact that we know who wins the CEW... it's the Duchy of Grand Fenwick! Otherwise how could they go to war with the US in the 60s?
Randy
Randy
A Freedom Bought With Blood: Emancipation and the Postwar Confederacy
"...push further southwards; Irregular activity was much more difficult to sustain deep within Kentucky when the front lines had shifted from the ridges north of Nashville to the banks of the Tennessee River.
Pershing was also very leery of leaving his supply lines hugely exposed and thus viewed fortifying Kentucky as a redoubt of Yankee logistics as an absolute priority, and here his lifelong sympathy for Negro concerns and soft spot for the mission behind ONE, [1] having taught at a colored school in Missouri as a young man before going to West Point, came into play. Extending the thrust of his forces deep into Georgia would mean leaving hundreds of miles of lines exposed to sabotage and attack by Irregulars behind him - indeed, damaging bridges and railroad tracks rather than lynching suspected collaborators became a more important activity for Forrest's men by 1916 - and thus from the masses of Negro refugees who had fled north and been arrested from traveling further at the Ohio he recruited a small army of depot guards, day laborers, cooks, railroad attendants, and other jobs that required little skill or literacy but was hugely important in keeping the war machine humming as it reached deeper and further into Dixie.
This limited but tangible incorporation of thousands of unskilled but hardworking Negro laborers into the logistical network of Pershing's army occurred in tandem with a considerably more organized processing of refugees now fleeing places like Alabama, Arkansas and Mississippi. Whereas the Yankees had been overwhelmed by the flood of slaves through much of 1915 as they tried to squeeze the vice on Nashville, near the end of the year Pershing's staff had better solved processes for sorting through refugees, and even though thousands still were able to make it across the Ohio (or into Missouri through the Ozarks) and head for cities with large prewar Negro populations such as Cincinnati and Indianapolis or the beating heart of American rail and industry at Chicago, the squalid and disease-ridden camps were mostly no more, with refugees instead assigned to makeshift shantytowns on the edges of major Army camps or Kentucky towns. Limits were set on who was allowed to officially "get papers" to the United States, but for those left behind - which was the vast majority - schools appeared as quickly as small schoolhouses could be thrown together, with thousands of young women teachers, Black Yankee abolitionists, clergymen (particularly Baptists and Methodists), and even some wounded Army officers (Quentin Roosevelt being a famous example) serving as teachers, often on a volunteer basis, on behalf of ONE.
This meant that by late spring of 1916, as Pershing was pushing into Atlanta and the Confederacy was crumbling, the Commonwealth west of the Kentucky River had become considerably more colored in its demographics (indeed, many White Kentuckians fled south or east as a result) and also formed the nucleus of a functioning self-governed polity, which while poor and unstable nonetheless had a serviceable judiciary under military occupation for civilian matters, commerce, and an increasingly literate and educated Negro populace that was passionately ebullient about its newfound freedom and emancipation. Western Kentucky would never be the same, and as the end of the war approached further south, the question of what exactly Philadelphia was to do with this small corner of the Confederacy..."
- A Freedom Bought With Blood: Emancipation and the Postwar Confederacy
[1] For those who've forgotten - Organization for Negro Education, founded by Booker T. Washington before his death and thus very much a purveyor of Bookerite thinking on Black empowerment. Pershing, in case it isn't obvious, largely aligns with that style of thinking.
Pershing was also very leery of leaving his supply lines hugely exposed and thus viewed fortifying Kentucky as a redoubt of Yankee logistics as an absolute priority, and here his lifelong sympathy for Negro concerns and soft spot for the mission behind ONE, [1] having taught at a colored school in Missouri as a young man before going to West Point, came into play. Extending the thrust of his forces deep into Georgia would mean leaving hundreds of miles of lines exposed to sabotage and attack by Irregulars behind him - indeed, damaging bridges and railroad tracks rather than lynching suspected collaborators became a more important activity for Forrest's men by 1916 - and thus from the masses of Negro refugees who had fled north and been arrested from traveling further at the Ohio he recruited a small army of depot guards, day laborers, cooks, railroad attendants, and other jobs that required little skill or literacy but was hugely important in keeping the war machine humming as it reached deeper and further into Dixie.
This limited but tangible incorporation of thousands of unskilled but hardworking Negro laborers into the logistical network of Pershing's army occurred in tandem with a considerably more organized processing of refugees now fleeing places like Alabama, Arkansas and Mississippi. Whereas the Yankees had been overwhelmed by the flood of slaves through much of 1915 as they tried to squeeze the vice on Nashville, near the end of the year Pershing's staff had better solved processes for sorting through refugees, and even though thousands still were able to make it across the Ohio (or into Missouri through the Ozarks) and head for cities with large prewar Negro populations such as Cincinnati and Indianapolis or the beating heart of American rail and industry at Chicago, the squalid and disease-ridden camps were mostly no more, with refugees instead assigned to makeshift shantytowns on the edges of major Army camps or Kentucky towns. Limits were set on who was allowed to officially "get papers" to the United States, but for those left behind - which was the vast majority - schools appeared as quickly as small schoolhouses could be thrown together, with thousands of young women teachers, Black Yankee abolitionists, clergymen (particularly Baptists and Methodists), and even some wounded Army officers (Quentin Roosevelt being a famous example) serving as teachers, often on a volunteer basis, on behalf of ONE.
This meant that by late spring of 1916, as Pershing was pushing into Atlanta and the Confederacy was crumbling, the Commonwealth west of the Kentucky River had become considerably more colored in its demographics (indeed, many White Kentuckians fled south or east as a result) and also formed the nucleus of a functioning self-governed polity, which while poor and unstable nonetheless had a serviceable judiciary under military occupation for civilian matters, commerce, and an increasingly literate and educated Negro populace that was passionately ebullient about its newfound freedom and emancipation. Western Kentucky would never be the same, and as the end of the war approached further south, the question of what exactly Philadelphia was to do with this small corner of the Confederacy..."
- A Freedom Bought With Blood: Emancipation and the Postwar Confederacy
[1] For those who've forgotten - Organization for Negro Education, founded by Booker T. Washington before his death and thus very much a purveyor of Bookerite thinking on Black empowerment. Pershing, in case it isn't obvious, largely aligns with that style of thinking.
I think that, in any case, Germany will definitely want the benefits of a properly owned island base for power projection reasons and as a forward base, whatever the Americans (who are going to still be dealing with the GAW's aftermath in any case) think be damned, but for that they only really need one. So they can easily just take the island with the most military use and, if Haiti did indeed help and join them in the war, give the rest to them as a reward to make them staunchly German allies (which the Americans will like about as much, let's face it, since German influence, whether direct or indirect, is still German influence), which is, if nothing else, at least cheaper than taking the whole French Caribbean for themselves.
Germany already has the ABC islands they bought from the Dutch and are very influential in Venezuela and Costa Rica - I’m not sure what else in the Caribbean they need to maintain power projection beyond that
Let's categorize that ABC islands sale under "Stuff I Honestly Completely Forgot"
I see we move ever closer to Kentucky's post-war status - what interests me, in particular, is Quentin Roosevelt's involvement in ONE, which brings up the question of what the larger Roosevelt family's opinions (and by extension what is printed in their newspapers) are about the arrangement.
I wonder how many towns in the Independent Commonwealth of Kentucky are named some variatin of Pershingville In either case, the term would have a much more beneficial reputation and memory than similar appalations surrounding political figures in OTL!
In either case, the term would have a much more beneficial reputation and memory than similar appalations surrounding political figures in OTL!Fair - German Aruba is pretty peripheral to the TL, anyways haha
Mmm fair enough. I think Teddy would be largely positive, even though the Democrats are marginally less friendly to Black interests than the Liberals (based largely on who Black voters vote for)
Maybe a few? Lenihan, Farmsworth, other generals probably get names tooI wonder how many towns in the Independent Commonwealth of Kentucky are named some variatin of Pershingville
Welp. Looks like the Confederacy is losing (at minimum) the Western half of the State. Note, the USA hasn't conquered the entire state, there are hills up near the WV border that I wouldn't want to go into with a 21st century army.
For those of you wondering, the Kentucky River runs through Kentucky from Southeast (at about the midpoint of the Kentucky/Virginia border through Louisville and meeting the Ohio downstream (Indiana side) of the Kentucky/Ohio/Indiana Tripoint. There are two reasons that I don't think this will be the final border.
1) This leaves Confederate frontage on the Ohio across from Cincinnati. Given that that was one of the most damaged cities west of the Appalachians, I think they want access to the Ohio denied.
2) This leaves Harlan, Kentucky being lost to the Confederacy , which the author seems to indicate remains Confederate.
More likely to me is to simply draw a North-South line from the VA/KY/TN triple point and the CSA gets to keep everything east of that.
Though, if we didn't know that Harlan, KY was staying Confederate and the fact that the author would be doing backflips trying not to mention this in the Extended Universe...
There is a *part* of me that wants to see the US taking a page from the punishments of Germany in OTL WWI, both in the West (the Ruhr) and the East (Poland). The Peace Treaty, in addition of stripping the Confederacy of its land East of the Chesapeake it creates three independent Negro dominated states, one called Ozarkia (the northern half of Arkansas, one called Kentucky (Also including the area around Dyersburg (*far* Northwest) Tennessee), and one called Shenandoah, which also includes the Valley, Loudon, Fairfax and Alexandria counties. This would mean that the United States of America no longer has a land border with the Confederate State of America (with the chain of Texas, IT, Ozarkia, Kentucky and Shenandoah) completely surrounding the CSA. We know it won't happen, but we can dream.
There is a *part* of me that wants to see the US taking a page from the punishments of Germany in OTL WWI, both in the West (the Ruhr) and the East (Poland). The Peace Treaty, in addition of stripping the Confederacy of its land East of the Chesapeake it creates three independent Negro dominated states, one called Ozarkia (the northern half of Arkansas, one called Kentucky (Also including the area around Dyersburg (*far* Northwest) Tennessee), and one called Shenandoah, which also includes the Valley, Loudon, Fairfax and Alexandria counties. This would mean that the United States of America no longer has a land border with the Confederate State of America (with the chain of Texas, IT, Ozarkia, Kentucky and Shenandoah) completely surrounding the CSA. We know it won't happen, but we can dream.