Sequel de Mayo (Cinco de Mayo, Vol. II)

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naraht

KingSweden24 said:
I always figured a CSNA would be in Norfolk or Charleston, as for a CSMA not sure. Maybe in Alabama or something, VMI is a bit too obvious

The concerns around flooding in Alton probably carry once again, so Colorado Springs or Lake Geneva seem good choices. Maybe the latter just to mix things up a bit?
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Moving back to the USNA, would the cadets be part of the defense of Annapolis? I think VMI and the Citadel had entire classes wiped out in OTL Civil War, this might be the equivalent. Oddly, I looked through the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_Naval_Academy_alumni and *nobody* that I actually recognized graduated from the USNA between 1914 and 1918. (Which would have been the classes at the Academy in September of 1913).


Yeah, for all of the tie between the USAFA and the mountains, I'm not sure it really is that advantageous.
 

KingSweden24

naraht said:
Moving back to the USNA, would the cadets be part of the defense of Annapolis? I think VMI and the Citadel had entire classes wiped out in OTL Civil War, this might be the equivalent. Oddly, I looked through the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_Naval_Academy_alumni and *nobody* that I actually recognized graduated from the USNA between 1914 and 1918. (Which would have been the classes at the Academy in September of 1913).


Yeah, for all of the tie between the USAFA and the mountains, I'm not sure it really is that advantageous.
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Not sure, but they were probably involved somehow
 
The Radical Republic
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    • KingSweden24

    "...an itinerary that often included six or seven stops for speeches in a day, six days a week; only on Sunday was reserved by Alem, never the most religious man until the war, as a day of rest. His fiery but upbeat addresses were held in working-class industrial barrios and plazas of rural farm towns alike, and everywhere he went he was met with a crush of people who had heard of this prophet of Argentina's civic religion arriving in their town during such difficult, meagre times. Alem proselytized of an Argentina besieged by the forces of reaction, making the war in his view explicitly ideological, even as the Drago administration increasingly began mulling a status quo peace with Brazil as it became increasingly clear the Parana would remain a hardened frontier for the foreseeable future until one side or both bled themselves dry.

    This was in part why Alem was not in the capital very often, because both the Civic Union and Drago did not want him there ruining their best-laid plans for pocketing the considerable and popular wins over Chile and thus giving them the perfect escape hatch with the public over the stalemate in the north against Brazil. Alem was no fool and understood that this was the case quite plainly and promised Barroetavena he would not interfere but rather keep whipping up public support for the war with his traveling oratory, though the toll it took on his health as he approached the age of seventy-five was considerable. He had a strange sense that he would "die with the war" - in other words, pass like a Moses in view of the Holy Land once peace had arrived, no sooner and no later. Thus it was imperative to him that the cementing of Alemism as the civil religion of the state go on uninterrupted over the weeks and months of the winter and spring of 1915, ensuring his legacy outlived him, and thus his rhetoric sharpened and he moved leftwards closer to the position of Yrigoyen. Conservatism was not merely bad on its own merits as an idea and ideology but, he suggested, perhaps fundamentally "un-Argentinean." Insinuations became implications that the Church hierarchy sympathized with Brazilian reactionaries and that the UC's enemies in the Congress would have acquiesced themselves into a government of occupation to undo all the achievements of the revolutionary generation of Mitre and Alem were they to come to power.

    Argentine politics thus shifted leftwards and left a whole host of Civistas profoundly uncomfortable with the direction their north star was headed, creating a major opening during the war years for somebody on the center to center-right who could capture the attention of the reformist but not revolutionary middle class that supported the war and the principles of 1890 but were fundamentally cautious and moderate and unlikely to move in support of Yrigoyen. Thus the permanent fracture of the Civic Union and the emergence of the two-party Turno Pacifico can be seeded in Alem's own attempts to define Alemism at the twilight of his life and the internal republican struggle of the war..."

    - The Radical Republic
     
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    • AristideBriand1925

    I think that what the old conservative party represented by members of the oligarchy like Rocca and Sarmiento will merge with this new more centrist moderate liberal party. I can easily see this half of the Turno Pacifico being something akin to the Anti Personalist Radicals or in this case the Anti Personalist Civistas. IOTL Yrigoyen triggered a split within the UCR through his increasingly demagogic appeal and it would make sense for the oligarchy to return to power on the basis of the claim that Alem and his followers sought a personal dictatorship for themselves.

    The fault line is once more this split between the old rural oligarchy and the urban elites but it is polarized between followers of Alem and those who oppose him; kind of akin to how Peron split Argentina politics between Peronistas and anti Peronistas. In same way despite the anti Peron forces not really sharing much common ground ideologically; they unite around their opposition to the dictator. The upper middle classes and the oligarchy may not have the same policy preferences but once again they oppose the Civistas leftward turn. The Socialist Revolution in Chile would help to accentuate this faultlines and provide the impetus for anti Alemist forces to coalesce.
     

    KingSweden24

    AristideBriand1925 said:
    I think that what the old conservative party represented by members of the oligarchy like Rocca and Sarmiento will merge with this new more centrist moderate liberal party. I can easily see this half of the Turno Pacifico being something akin to the Anti Personalist Radicals or in this case the Anti Personalist Civistas. IOTL Yrigoyen triggered a split within the UCR through his increasingly demagogic appeal and it would make sense for the oligarchy to return to power on the basis of the claim that Alem and his followers sought a personal dictatorship for themselves.

    The fault line is once more this split between the old rural oligarchy and the urban elites but it is polarized between followers of Alem and those who oppose him; kind of akin to how Peron split Argentina politics between Peronistas and anti Peronistas. In same way despite the anti Peron forces not really sharing much common ground ideologically; they unite around their opposition to the dictator. The upper middle classes and the oligarchy may not have the same policy preferences but once again they oppose the Civistas leftward turn. The Socialist Revolution in Chile would help to accentuate this faultlines and provide the impetus for anti Alemist forces to coalesce.
    Click to expand...
    This is, more or less, where we are headed. Not quite the details but the general thrust, at least.
     
    American Royalty: The Roosevelt Dynasty's Enduring Legacy
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    • KingSweden24

    "...familiar to a great many American families. Thus, the training accident in an airplane at takeoff that left Quentin with a broken left leg but no other injuries came as something of a relief; Theodore was certain he would have been broken both physically and mentally had he lost a third son to the war, particularly his youngest and favorite. Due to the long recuperation Quentin would have to endure (and a noticeable limp he would carry with him for the rest of his life) at Sagamore Hill, it was likely that the youngest Roosevelt boy would never see combat again.

    With Junior and Kit dead in the hills and forests of Nashville, however, it meant that the family needed a new champion other than Archie, who was excelling in his role in Army Intelligence in Lancaster. Roosevelt's cousin, Franklin, had made something of a name for himself at Hilton Head managing to give orders to the crew of his ship despite being pinned to a wall by a bulkhead that left, ironically enough, also his left leg severely damaged. The heroism of this young, handsome Roosevelt the naval officer was splayed across the pages of the Journal and made the former New York state representative something of a celebrity back home, with Theodore's considerable help.

    This was really just part of a broader push by the Roosevelt papers to take an increasingly hardline stance on the war. Liberals or Democrats who suggested peace feelers to the Confederacy were condemned as traitors; indeed, vitriolic coverage was a major factor in the collapse of the attempted Anglo-French Mission for Peace over the summer of 1915. It is worth saying, however, that Roosevelt's grief being channeled into his murderous hatred of the Confederacy was just a single factor. The collapses at Nashville and the "Actium of the Americas" at Hilton Head had persuaded a great many that the Confederacy looked to permanently be on the back foot, now, and that there was no sense in not pressing ahead with whatever advantage they could, and newspaper coverage in outfits such as the Journal group reflected as much..."

    - American Royalty: The Roosevelt Dynasty's Enduring Legacy
     
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    • Dannyboy

    Would be interesting to see if any of the otl l "lesser known" Roosevelts have a go at politics.

    President Quentin Roosevelt anybody?
     
    DanMcCollum

    DanMcCollum

    KingSweden24 said:
    An analogy TR would appreciate!

    He is the one they all said was most like his father, after all
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    Oh, I've love to see President Quintin one of these days - glad to see he survived, though it's a shame about Teedee and Kermit; the famous statement about Jr and Sr was that the elder "was a talented politician, but horrible general, while Junior was a talented general and horrible politician" :)
     
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    naraht

    While I can see newpaper coverage like the Teddy's helping to cause an Anglo-French mission to Fail, it *really* makes me wonder if such an effort would have had a snowball's chance of succeeding without them (If, for example, Teddy were to be removed from the scene).


    Let's start with the obvious, Britain and France are *not* going to threaten to join the war on the BS side unless a peace treaty is signed. I don't think that France is worried that the Mexico will be dismembered or turned into a Republic if it loses, I'm not even sure Roosevelt's papers at their wildest are proposing more than taking Baja, Sonora and Chihuahua. And France has its own concerns in Europe, this is *not* 1863.


    The basic question is whether the US would be willing to take a Peace treaty that didn't include the end of Slavery. (Say the US gets free transport on the Mississippi, Northern VA and the southern end of the Delmarva) and would the Confederacy be willing to take one that did at this point? (A treaty where every Confederate darker than a certain shade is able to choose whether to go to the USA????) (Split the Difference, anyone born after January 1, 1916 is free at birth???)

    This also, *probably* means that the US gets through the summer without a major reverse. (Simply being repelled at a first attempt to take Knoxville isn't a major reverse)


    Prior to May 1915, there were European observers who thought they might convince the US something other than total victory could be agreed to. After the Triple Victories of May 5th, there is no chance at all.
     
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    Curtain Jerker

    Why did Teddy become a Democrat in this timeline? By the time he enters the narrative he's already an adult so it isnt really answered in the text. OTL he joined the GOP because of his dad. While there's no GOP by the late 1870s (when his dad died OTL and presumably ITTL) it figures a rich, good government Protestant from old money is a textbook Liberal, especially the Liberals of the Blaine years.

    I mean, I'm happy he's on the side of the angels but it didn't make much sense for him to join the 1870s/1880s Democrats given his background and upbringing.
     

    KingSweden24

    naraht said:
    While I can see newpaper coverage like the Teddy's helping to cause an Anglo-French mission to Fail, it *really* makes me wonder if such an effort would have had a snowball's chance of succeeding without them (If, for example, Teddy were to be removed from the scene).


    Let's start with the obvious, Britain and France are *not* going to threaten to join the war on the BS side unless a peace treaty is signed. I don't think that France is worried that the Mexico will be dismembered or turned into a Republic if it loses, I'm not even sure Roosevelt's papers at their wildest are proposing more than taking Baja, Sonora and Chihuahua. And France has its own concerns in Europe, this is *not* 1863.


    The basic question is whether the US would be willing to take a Peace treaty that didn't include the end of Slavery. (Say the US gets free transport on the Mississippi, Northern VA and the southern end of the Delmarva) and would the Confederacy be willing to take one that did at this point? (A treaty where every Confederate darker than a certain shade is able to choose whether to go to the USA????) (Split the Difference, anyone born after January 1, 1916 is free at birth???)

    This also, *probably* means that the US gets through the summer without a major reverse. (Simply being repelled at a first attempt to take Knoxville isn't a major reverse)


    Prior to May 1915, there were European observers who thought they might convince the US something other than total victory could be agreed to. After the Triple Victories of May 5th, there is no chance at all.
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    And this is precisely why such a mission will fail
    Curtain Jerker said:
    Why did Teddy become a Democrat in this timeline? By the time he enters the narrative he's already an adult so it isnt really answered in the text. OTL he joined the GOP because of his dad. While there's no GOP by the late 1870s (when his dad died OTL and presumably ITTL) it figures a rich, good government Protestant from old money is a textbook Liberal, especially the Liberals of the Blaine years.

    I mean, I'm happy he's on the side of the angels but it didn't make much sense for him to join the 1870s/1880s Democrats given his background and upbringing.
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    Beyond authorial fiat to make the Hearst analogy more on-the-nose, Teddy in OTL not becoming a Democrat was considered strange in his social circle and it was largely his father’s influence that carried it. Many of Teddy’s closest friends iOTL were anti-Blaine Mugwumps who went for Cleveland, after all.

    Dunno. Just seemed a fun avenue to explore!
     

    Curtain Jerker

    KingSweden24 said:
    Beyond authorial fiat to make the Hearst analogy more on-the-nose, Teddy in OTL not becoming a Democrat was considered strange in his social circle and it was largely his father’s influence that carried it. Many of Teddy’s closest friends iOTL were anti-Blaine Mugwumps who went for Cleveland, after all.

    Dunno. Just seemed a fun avenue to explore!
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    It is a super fun avenue to explore! I bet the cocktail parties and dinners he went to where most other old-time Knickerbockers were presumably Liberals were a blast, especially once the Journal broke the news of Hay's affair. A "chilly reception" probably doesn't begin to describe the first time Teddy went to the cigar bar after that article was published x'D x'D
     

    KingSweden24

    Curtain Jerker said:
    It is a super fun avenue to explore! I bet the cocktail parties and dinners he went to where most other old-time Knickerbockers were presumably Liberals were a blast, especially once the Journal broke the news of Hay's affair. A "chilly reception" probably doesn't begin to describe the first time Teddy went to the cigar bar after that article was published x'D x'D
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    Almost certainly, but Teddy being Teddy of course could care less
     
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