1.2. Keep the POD in 1907. Keep the number of Romanians as low as in OTL. Negative: a lesser Greater Romania is thus achievable OR it becomes a multi-ethnic, pluri-national state or confederation.

And what is wrong multi-ethnic, pluri-national state or confederation ?
And why can there be greatness in lesser (or even the same size as in OTL) Greater Romania,i mean you could have a wank that just keeps Romania just as big as OTL but makes it more successfully,or very successful.
I for one i'm tempted to write (or at least attempt) such a TL.
 

Zagan

Donor
And what is wrong multi-ethnic, pluri-national state or confederation ?
And why can there be greatness in lesser (or even the same size as in OTL) Greater Romania,i mean you could have a wank that just keeps Romania just as big as OTL but makes it more successfully,or very successful.
I for one i'm tempted to write (or at least attempt) such a TL.

1. I simply wanted a truly monstruos "Wank".
2. I would like to salvage / reuse as much as possible of TTL in Version 2 (a rewrite, not a completely different, unrelated TL)
3. Are you kidding me? What could be wrong with "lots of ethnic minorities" or a multi-ethnic / pluri-national / confederation etc... Wow! Let's see some examples of these and how "well" the many different nationalities worked for them: Russian Empire, Soviet Union, Yugoslavia, Austria-Hungary, even Belgium. Well... there is one (only one!) succesful example: tiny Switzerland.
4. Go ahead! Write it! I will read it with much pleasure and (seriously, no kidding) refrain from attacking it.
 
2.XXI

Zagan

Donor
XXI. Difficult Times

1948-1966
Romania had just won another World War.
Another victory like this and there would be no Romania anymore!
Actually, Romania only won because its allies won. Like in World War I in fact.
And, as in the aftermath of World War I, Romania was again devastated.

But sadly, the similarities ended here. If after World War I, the Romanians managed to bring to fruition their national ideal and create a great, united country encompassing almost all their ethnic brethren, now they have achieved exactly nothing. Of course, the Romanian state survived or, to be more precise, it was reconstructed after its dismemberment by the communists.

But the Romanians received absolutely nothing more for their enormous military and civilian casualties, significant contribution to the final victory or untold destruction all over Romania. No territory, no reparations, no further security guaranties, no atomic weapons, no weakening of Germany and no dismemberment of Russia. The other powers did not accept any of the Romanian demands and insisted in their 3 fundamental points:
- The communist countries were illegitimate and were now disolved.
- No responsability for the anti-communist regimes now functioning in their place.
- No collective responsability for their people, only for the actual communists.
So, as a corolary: status quo ante bellum and no reparations (other than reconstruction work provided by the communists themselves)

The Romanians felt betrayed by their allies.
Those who wanted to avenge the communists' crimes and wanted to finish them off were stopped by the army which took over in order to stop the anarchy.
The army which wanted to loot its occupation zone in Russia was hindered by the other allies.
The democracy was at least for now gone, replaced by military rule.
The economy was faltering. The hastily renewed atomic program did not help it.
The already known turbulent ethnic minorities (especially the Ukrainians) were formenting aggitation once more.

To put it in fewer words: The facts were as bad as after World War I, but now the overall atmosphere was gloomier because it lacked that overwhelming sense of joy given by the creation of Greater Romania 20 years ago.

And to make things worse, the situation did not show signs of getting better.
The economy was not improving (or at least not improving as fast as expected), the democratic system had still not been reinstated, the ethnic minorities were still not turning into "good Romanians" and many people were leaving the country, mostly for North America and Australia.

These Romanian Times of Tribulations were to drag on for almost 20 years.

Since there is no point in intentionally saddening ourselves we shall continue next time with contemporary history, i.e. Romania's Golden Age.
 
Last edited:
2.XXII

Zagan

Donor
XXII. Decolonization

While Romania struggled to get over its difficulties, Europe and the rest of the World was changing fast and dramatically.

In 1947, Europe was free from Communism and in the span of only a few years, its pernicious ideology was strictly relegated to the fringes of the society.

The Independence Movements
Sadly, the situation in the European colonies across the Globe was not that good. From the deserts of the Middle East to the jungles of South-East Asia, from India to the depths of Africa, the colonized people were determined in their fight for independence.
The real issue here was that most of the independence movements were also communist in nature.
It is obviously an overstatement to say that the freedom fighters were all communists. In fact very few were true believers in the communist cause. Their allegiance to communism was mostly opportunistic. Their oppressors were fighting against the Comintern. It felt natural to ally with your enemy's enemy. Not to mention the very important fact that the Comintern was ready and willing to help with logistics, advisors, money, weapons etc.
It is thus clear why almost all independence movements across the colonized World were at the same time communist movements. That situation had to be changed. Somehow.

Does Europe really have a choice?
After the end of the war in Europe, the colonial powers were victorious but devastated by fighting, bombing campaigns and the communist mis-management of their economies and societies. Their cities were in ruins, their economies destroyed, their societies in disarray, their armies at the brink of exhaustion.
In not so many words, all colonial powers, except maybe Italy, were either unable, unwilling or both to keep fighting for most of their colonial empires.
An important fact was also that, at the moment, most of their colonies were in turmoil and the communists were only kept in check by the Americans and their Latin-American allies. The biggest issue here was that if they were surely against communism, they were also not very fond of colonialism.
After long and difficult international consultations among them as well as with their American allies, it was more or less decided that most of the European Colonial Empires had to be dismantled and the colonies must get their independence (preferable on the European powers' terms)

League of Nations Declaration
On 10 March 1950, the League of Nations passed the decolonization resolution with a clear majority, paving the way to the resolution of the colonial conflicts.
It was actually a compromise, which could be worded like that:
Colonised peoples, we have an offer for you. We realize that you will probably, eventually, get your independence anyway. Just choose which way seems to be the best for your long-term interests:
1. Keep the communist ideology. We will keep fighting you for years, destroying your lands, cities and infrastructure. After that you will be a pariah, isolated, rogue state, kept out of the international community with no means to do any international trade or get any loans or help from any other state.
2. Drop the communist insanity and immediately become an internationally recognized independent nation, full member of the League of Nations with all the rights and duties implied by this. Trade with your former colonial power as well as with other states will continue and even increase. A democratic form of government will ensure that the rights of every citizen and economic enterprise will be respected. The good will of the international community will bring prosperity and success for your people.
Make the wise choice.


The Resolution of the Conflicts
The LoN resolution had an enormous effect.
In most colonies, the war stopped immediately as the leaders of the uprisings dropped the communist label as a hot potato.
In others, a brief civil war between the communist and non-communist factions ensued. With the help of the Western Powers, the non-communists were quickly victorious.
By the end of the year, the decolonisation was almost over.

Another momentuos decision of the LoN was to completely drop the uti possidetis principle and completely redraw all the borders of the new states based first on ethnic, tribal and religious affinity and second on economical considerations.
Some interests of the former Colonial Powers and of the small European population left behind were negotiated on a case by case basis.

The Map of the World changed dramatically in only one year.
165 new independent countries were formed: 88 in Black Africa, 23 in the Arab Sphere, 31 in the Indian Subcontinent, 17 in Eastern and South-Eastern Asia, 3 in the Caribbean, 3 in the Pacific.

The territories which were not given independence were either small, remote, thinly populated or with a significant European population, mainly islands and some littoral cities like Ceuta, Mellila, Oran, Constantine, Algiers, Singapore, Hong-Kong, which were mostly integrated into the respective states.

1952 was probably the first year in history when all the World was at peace.
 
Last edited:

Zagan

Donor
(More) Conclusions

Remember this?
Well, I reached some conclusions. (below)

Possible solutions considered for Version 2

1. Keep it Non-ASB (but increase plausibility)
1.1. Move the POD from 1907 to the Antiquity or the Middle Ages. Significantly change most subsequent history. Negative: unrecognizable World.
1.2. Keep the POD in 1907. Keep the number of Romanians as low as in OTL. Negative: a lesser Greater Romania is thus achievable OR it becomes a multi-ethnic, pluri-national state or confederation.

2. Switch to ASB (actual ASB, not what some of you incorrectly call ASB)
Negative: Some people (not me) do not like ASB stories / consider them somehow inferior.
2.1. ASB puts an enormous "butterfly net" over the Romanians. Negative: it only offers a very streched explanation and keeps TTL exactly as is, making a rewrite (version 2) pointless.
2.2. In 190x, ASB makes millions of people all around Romania "feel" Romanian. (example: those who have at least a Dacian / Thracian or Romanian / Aromanian ancestor or whatever)
Most of TTL remains unchanged (besides some polishing and the inevitable initial chaos / bewilderment). Negative: ??
2.3. No extra Romanians, but ASB somehow helps Romania conquer all around. (weapons from the future or an ISOT or something). Negative: empire / dictatorship / apartheid / something where 15% of the population rules over the 85% conquered nations. :(

1.1.1. Non-ASB. Move the POD from 1907 to the Antiquity.
POD
: More Dacians etc.
Problems:
- I am not very good at ancient history and I am not in the mood of doing extensive research / learning at this time. Sorry. I would very much like, on the other hand, to read and maybe contribute a little to a TL about Dacians.
- Damn Butterflies! The world will be completely different and unrecognizable. I do not like this kind of TL where everything is different. It is like reading the history of an alien planet! By the Middle Ages, the reader will have nothing familiar to relate to. No. Clearly NO.
- This would not even be a Romania-Wank anymore! There may no Roman conquest and thus no Romanian people anymore! And almost certainly there will be no Romania whatsoever! A very big NO!
Conclusion: Nope. Sorry.

1.1.2. Non-ASB. Move the POD from 1907 to the Middle Ages.
POD
: Way more successful Michael the Brave (Mihai Viteazul); something like this.
Problems:
- The Damn Butterflies again! However, there are at two more millenia in which the history is the same as OTL. Europe as we know it had enough time to develop. Nothing will be the same, but most states (at least in the West) will be (at least) recognizable.
Conclusion: YES! I will do this! I have definitely made up my mind.

2.1. ASB. Butterfly Net.
POD
: Exactly like TTL. Plus, ASB puts a Butterfly Net all over the areas inhabited by Dacians / Romanians. Yeah, strange, I know. :)
Content: Exactly like TTL. No nead to rewrite. It is already here. Just read it again with the ASB Butterfly Net premise in mind. It starts here. ;)
Problems: None. However... as I already mentioned, nothing to do here.
Conclusion: Done. Nothing more to do here. Keep walking...

2.2. ASB. Millions of new Romanians all around Romania.
POD
: a) Suddenly, ASB makes all the people with at least a Romanian ancestor (or Aromanian, Dacian, Thracian etc) to suddenly "feel" Romanian and nationalistic. They also know the Romanian language etc. Mayhem ensues.
b) Some virus gradually changes people into Romanians until some vaccine is found or its virulence decreases. Well, something like this.
Problems: Bizzare, isn't it?
Conclusion: I may try something like this in the ASB subforum. Some time. Not now. Don't hold your breath. Maybe never.

2.3. ...
Conclusion
: Already decided: NO!

In a nutshell: I will certainly write a Michael the Brave TL.
I already have something in mind. It will start soon.



Plans for the future
1. Finish this in the same style
. (and keep it in this subforum)
Since I already decided to make a Version 2, there is no need to modify this one. And I will not stop now when it is >80% completed. ETA: soon.
2. Choose a solution (see above) and write Version 2. (in Before 1900, After 1900 or ASB, as appropriate based on the solution chosen). ETA: several weeks to months.
3. Write one or more derivate TLs. Example: 7 May 1945 TTL Romania "ISOT" to 7 May 1945 OTL World. ETA: as soon as possible.

1. Almost done. Low priority, but it will be finished.
2. A solution has been chosen. Look above. I will write a Michael the Brave TL resulting in a Romania Wank. It will be in the "Before 1900" subforum. A link will be provided. (Done)
3. The above example is in the preparatory phase. It will start soon in the ASB subforum. A link will be provided. (Done)

Note: I will do both TLs (Michael the Brave and the ISOT) in the same time.
EDIT: TLs started (look at the following 2 posts)

Comments / advice please.
Some encouragement will be very welcome.
Thank you.
 
Last edited:
2.XXIII

Zagan

Donor
XXIII. The Road to Success

During the sixties, the economy and overall situation started to improve first in Western Europe and a little later in Romania as well.
Romania's recovery was slower because of 3 factors:
- massive military expenditures including the Atomic Program;
- internal strife caused mainly by restless ethnic minorities;
- mismanagement by the military government.

Perhaps not coincidentally, the fall of the most European fascist governments and the gradual return to democracy took place in the same period.
In Romania, civil democratic governance was restored in 1964.

The European Economic Unity Project also begun to take shape in that decade. The gradual removal of tariffs and the harmonization of laws and regulations contributed to the merging of the European Economies.
Freedom of trade, of capital and the free movement of the peoples of Europe were enshrined in law.
The interwinding of the economies of the European states made further wars in Europe if not an utter impossibility at least extremely unlikely.

The seventies and the eighties saw the so called European Economic Boom, with massive increases in productivity, quality of products and services, wages and overall quality of life and prosperity. Advances in medicine and social projects greatly contributed to this as well.

The eighties saw for the first time a thawing of the internal ethnic conflicts in Romania. Two main factors contributed to this welcome development:
- Increased prosperity and quality of life meant people became less nationalistic and aggressive. If you have a job, a house, a car and decent money, your town is nice and clean, you may freely use your language in private and in public, your children learn in your language and nobody is bugging you, you become less inclined to place bombs in order to get an independent nation.
- Massive emigration in the aftermath of the war thinned the lines of most ethnic minorities. At the same time, the birth rate of the ethnic Romanians, lower than in historical times but still the highest in Europe meant that the percentage of Romanians increased from 56% to almost 64% in the time of a generation.

In 1977, the Western Allies (USA, UK and Italy) decided to end the occupation of now fully democratic and thoroughly decommunized Russia.
Abiding by the pressure of the international community, Romania and China withdrew their forces as well in 1981 and 1983.
Commercial traffic on the Don was regulated in 1982 via a special treaty with Russia.

In the nineties, the increased unrest in some Third World countries prompted peace-keeping interventions of the LoN. Romania declined to contribute troops but offered money and equipment instead. It was the beginning of the current period of isolationism in the Romanian foreign policy.

At the turn of the millenium, Romania was a strong, modern, democratic and wealthy country, somewhere between a regional and a great power.
100 million Romanians and 50 million people of other ethnicities were enjoying their life in Romania, pleased to life in peace, safety, prosperity and freedom.


The End?
 
Last edited:

Dementor

Banned
There was also a suggestion around the late 19th century of having General William Sherman become the King of Bulgaria, so if you are going to have a pre 1900 POD have him accept but as the King of Romania. That would certainly cast the butterflies fairly wide.
There was never such a suggestion. It was claimed to have happened in one of the Flashman books (Flashman and the Tiger), which is hardly a reliable source.
 
Animated Map

Zagan

Donor
Territorial Evolution of Romania (animated gif)
 

Attachments

  • RomaniaWank.gif
    RomaniaWank.gif
    143.5 KB · Views: 522

Zagan

Donor
This TL is finished. I will not update it anymore.

Thank you all for your comments and civil criticism.
I am continuing to ignore those who are not civil and polite.

The End.
 
Top