Title

Zagan

Donor

RomaniaWank
(first edition)


Notes:
1. This is my first TimeLine.
2. It does not conform with the usual expectations of the AH community.
3. It has attracted a lot of flames.
4. The actual TL starts
here.




Hi.
I have never written any alternative history before, though I have written a novel which could be described as secret / future history.
I have read a lot of AH stories, books, discussions, the FAQs here and on other sites, but I have still very much to learn.
My knowlegde of history and geography is quite solid, but I have limited knowledge of the military stuff.
I have read a lot of "Wanks" I liked most of them, although I prefer better believability. And because I have never found a "RomaniaWank", I would like to create one (possibly with help, if available).
The main idea is to get a Romanian State as big and as powerful as logically acceptable.

And now, the questions:
1. Is there any RomaniaWank already written?
2. When would be the best POD? I have thought about a few:
a) Antiquity (Dacian Kingdom) - I do not like it for several reasons, so please forget it.
b) Middle Ages (Michael the Brave?); are ASBs needed?
c) WW1 aftermath; are ASBs needed?
d) WW2 with German victory - cliche so please not.
e) WW2 without a German victory; some powerful ASBs are certainly needed.
f) Between the fall of communism and NATO / UE eastern expansion; ASBs probably necessary.
3. How to get it going?
a) Butterflies - probably not going to help
b) Major difference from OTL, but still (barely) concievable
c) ASBs: I do not like them very much (probably because of their large metallic wings :)). I would only accept some "minor" interference which will go unnoticed by the general public / other countries.
d) ASBs: Utterly absurd / fantastic stuff - NO.
4) How much the "wank"? I.e. how large / powerful could it get? The problem is that it should also have some setbacks from time to time. Being victorious / growing all the time is not realistic at all. The final (net) result should be the "wank", not the entire AH.

The biggest issue in my opinion is that Romania is not Germany (for example). First of all, there aren't very many Romanians out there. To make things worse, we had neither political independence / freedom, nor political unity until late in our history. Worst of all, for the most part of our history we were controlled by 2-3 different foreign powers / empires.
It looks like a miracle that we got Greater Romania in 1919 after all!
So, even if we get a RomaniaWank of some kind, it still needs something to happen for it to be stable in time.
Solutions:
1. Somehow (greatly) increase the romanian ethnic population:
a) very high birth rate
b) ethnic assimilation of other peoples (by means of propaganda, economic incentives etc)
c) Aromanians / other Romance speaking peoples in the Balkan Peninsula start to "feel" Romanian.
d) bad things happening to other peoples (I do not like this)
2. Wait for or create the right circumstances (wrong for them) e.g. 1600, 1919 or other AH "right" moment.
3. Anyway, do not get waaaay to big / powerful to completely disturb the European balance of power and get all the Western Powers against us! So, keep it in the Balkan peninsula / Central-Eastern European area / Russia and do not mess with the West / Catholics to much.

Sorry for the long post.
I hope to get some tips / advice / criticism / encouragement.
Thank you for reading. (thank you more if you actually post something useful)
 
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Well first of all as this is your first post - welcome to AH.Com.

Although this does not directly answer your question, I would suggest that this thread about a better Romanian performance in WW 2 would help. It certainly helped me understand the difficulties faced by Romania both during WW 2 and immediately prior.
 
I'd try to have a successful Mihai Viteazul. Either have a Austrian victory at Keresztes(with POD being Mehmed not staying for battle, for example) or have Mehmed killed and you would probably have an Ottoman collapse, then Mihai could be able to focus on unifying Romania in the midst of said collapse. Or you can have Ieremia Movila captured during Mihai's invasion of Moldova, as he narrowly escaped IOTL. This should butterfly OTL transylvanian rebellion and assassination of Mihai and probably give him a bit more time to strengthen his position.
 
b) Middle Ages (Michael the Brave?); are ASBs needed?

If you want to start an wank from that time till today,just by the time period it becomes an ASBs-ish,but you can have such a fare behind in time period as butterfly for something that will affect a more recent period,like for example changing the religion of the country from orthodox to protestant,so you Romania will have a more alphabetized population,which will help wank Romania from the inter-war period or something like that.

c) WW1 aftermath; are ASBs needed?

It depends,conquering Ukraine and Belarus yes,

e) WW2 without a German victory; some powerful ASBs are certainly needed.

At first it my seem like an asb or two will be needed,but in reality you could get a way with out,
- Fight your enemy's one by one (hint Slovak-Hungarian war)
- Be cable of blitzkrieg against the smaller enemy's.
-
- Industrialise by any means necessary and with any one who is willing to help.
- Remember that Romania exist with the help/support of France and UK but also that of Prussia,remember that if Germany and France are fighting with each other they will not be able to help you fighting with USSR.
- Germany will try to get Romania close the here,she will even promise Romania to help to prepare to defend against USSR,
- The country biggest weakness are the extremist forces,get rid of them,and of those who support them and help them rise (or at least of as many of them as possible).
- Make sure Carol II doesn’t become come back and if dose he dies,
- Have the Liberals in power in the since they are you best option,but have them relax a bit on there police of through ourselves.

f) Between the fall of communism and NATO / UE eastern expansion; ASBs probably necessary.

Just have communist Romania take the opposite direction from the otl.

Solutions:
1. Somehow (greatly) increase the romanian ethnic population:
a) very high birth rate
b) ethnic assimilation of other peoples (by means of propaganda, economic incentives etc)

Are sure is not the death rate which is the problem, second think a rapid growth can become a problem.
Minorities are a strength not a weakness and if possible get some more.
 

Zagan

Donor
Thank you all for advice.
Just an observation about "minorities": If Romania is 5 times its OTL size, the so called minorities are 80% of the population so they are a big problem.
 

Zagan

Donor
@Magnum: Ok. I read your post. I feel sorry and ashamed that I have not searched properly.
Is it possible to somehow merge the threads?
To the moderators: Please!
Or should I just copy my post there and ask for this thread to be locked?
 
I'm fairly sure that you can just continue your own thread instead of resurrecting 3-year old thread. There are many similar or reappearing threads here(just look at all those Sealion threads), so it should be of no problem.
 
Thank you all for advice.
Just an observation about "minorities": If Romania is 5 times its OTL size, the so called minorities are 80% of the population so they are a big problem.

O just accept the wanked Romania will be a country with out a majority and see how you can make it work,and you said you want some think that is not asb,and as realistic as possible

@Magnum: Ok. I read your post. I feel sorry and ashamed that I have not searched properly.
Is it possible to somehow merge the threads?
To the moderators: Please!
Or should I just copy my post there and ask for this thread to be locked?

I believe the only one that can resurrect a thread that old is the OP,so you will need to ask Magnum for permission to barrow some of his ideas from that thread,or to continue expanding on them,quote and link here.
 
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I'm fairly sure that you can just continue your own thread instead of resurrecting 3-year old thread. There are many similar or reappearing threads here(just look at all those Sealion threads), so it should be of no problem.

I don't get what all the fuss is about - the thread I started was specifically designed to elicit responses regarding possible Romania-wanks. However, as is customary for most threads I start, it didn't really have much of a succes. AFAIK, members are allowed to post in older threads if what they bring is a substantial contribution to the discussion - which writing a scenario different from mine clearly is IMO.

For what it's worth, I hereby state that it's totally a-ok from my POV for Zagan to post in the thread I started.
 

Zagan

Donor
Some further thoughts:
1. Michael the Brave (Mihai Viteazul) POD - Interesting, but in my opinion not enough because, you know, there aren't enough Romanians.
2. Any Antiquity / Middle Ages POD - Actually not my type. I mean a massive POD resulting in a completely different history centuries / millenia long. Too many things get different, the whole region and beyond gets very unfamiliar and it more difficult to write about it (and for the readers to understand / follow it properly).
3. Modern POD - This is what I want, but it cannot achieve something really spectacular without obvious ASB.
So... (please do not shun me!) I have a rather strange idea which might upset many traditionalists here. Please stay with me a little longer... (in next post)
 

Zagan

Donor
The main idea is something like this:
Small differences do start to accumulate from Antiquity, but remain not noticeable in the larger picture.
I mean that some things are different but there is not enough difference there to get mentioned in the history books. Or, at least, it does not really impact "big" history very much. For example, all countries, leaders, wars etc stay (aproximately) the same, with the same boundaries and all.
The only difference is that the Romanians are somehow a little different - so that they get in a much better position to achieve something big in the late 19th to early 20th century.
Conclusion: I will start from antiquity and point out the little differencies till the real POD. This will be something like secret history (till the POD).
Then the POD will happen and the AH will start in force.
In the end, the "wank" will have to get tempered down a little, I guess.

What do you think? Is this acceptable?
 
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Zagan

Donor
Thank you all for your comments.
I would like to get more input, if possible.

So, let's get started!

Title: I don't know yet. Not "RomaniaWank", anyway :). Ideas, anyone?

Format: Mixed? Main component: History book / chronology. Occasional stories, propaganda, laws, economic / administrative / ethnographic / religious data, lists, tables, of course maps / atlas, humor etc.
Since the finished stuff is so far away, I will decide later. Probably an encyclopedia or something. Any hints?

As I said earlier, there is NO clear POD. Sorry.
I mean, the story starts in 1907, so we can say that there is an 1907 POD.
So, in 1907, the world is pretty much the same and history (at least high-school level history) is taught as in OTL in all countries, including Romania.
The world's political map is absolutely identical to OTL.
Only that there are a few subtle (or not so subtle differencies) of the kind that does not usually get mentioned in history books. Things about the common, unimportant people which will make quite a difference in TTL.

And now another question for the ones eager to help:
What to do with these "subtle" differencies:
1. Mention / explain everything before the noticeable POD;
2. Start with the noticeable POD and let the reader gradually find out / imagine these differencies?

The next post will be about these before POD subtle differencies anyway.
We, the community developing the story (the author plus the advisers) must know all about it. The only question was what to actually present to the end-reader.
 
1.I

Zagan

Donor
The pre-POD generally unnoticed differencies

Well... I have absoultely no idea how I could present the following in the beginning of the story.
I could perhaps tell these later (for example as a PhD in post POD Romania about what stood behind the incredible succes of the Romanian State). Time will tell. (Any advice is welcome. I am repeating myself, I know.)

Another thing... There are some differencies in the way history is taught in OTL Romania and OTL Hungary, for example. And many things about Romanian history in A.D. 300 - 1200 are so to say, at least fuzzy. This is completely irrelevant to this story, because this is supposed to be the history of the winner anyway.

My knowledge of ancient history is not as good as of modern history, so this will be a little sketchy.


Part 1. The Road to Greater Romania



I. Antiquity

Well... The Dacians.
The Dacians were a little better at fending off invasions, so at least the core of Dacia was somehow safer than in OTL. And the fertile plains of Dacia produced enough food for (almost) everyone, so the population was booming. Many Dacians started to scatter in the nearby lands. Most of them were assimilated though. Anyway, at least in the North and East, the Dacian tribes were spread more than in OTL.
Nobody noticed this. The Dacians did not keep any records and the Greeks and Romans did not really know very well what was the situation in Sarmatia for example. As for the actual demography, of course nobody knew how many people were actually there and they knew even less about the actual ethnic make-up of a mixed population.
The fact is that in most European countries there were no reliable censuses until the 19th century.
This situation in Dacia went on for hundreds of years up to the Roman conquest in A.D. 106.
In Roman Dacia, romanization proceeded quite as in OTL. Somehow the Dacians started to use the Latin language (Latin and Dacian were quite similar perhaps), appropriated Roman customs and way of life. Somehow this radiated northwards and eastwards and the Free Dacians got romanized as well. In the same time, The Thracian tribes south of the Danube were romanized as well.
What do we have now (A.D. 270)? A huge mass of (neo) Latin speaking people, thinking of themselves as being Romans (they were all in fact Roman citizens after the Caracalla edict), thinking Roman, acting Roman and feeling Roman. This is the proto-Romanian people. They range from the Jirinek line in the south to Sarmatia in the north and from the Illiricum in the west to the Black Sea in the east. And there are around 7 milions of them!
Then Emperor Aurelianus retreated the Roman army and administration from Dacia and the proto-Romanians got separated in two halves. The northern "abandoned" half and the southern one still within the Empire's borders.
Daco-Roman continuity in Dacia is taken as a fact and not disputed by (almost) anyone.
Although Dacia was now outside the official borders of the Fatherland, the Roman way of life continued almost undisturbed in Dacia for hundreds of years until the great slavic invasion of the Balkans.
So, between 275 and around 600, the romanized Dacians continued to live as usual (and to breed as usual), to live like Romans (and to call themselves Romans), to trade and mix with the Romans on the other side of the Danube still controlled by the Roman Empire.
Well... not all the time of course. There were still the occasional invasions of the barbarians, but these were neither brutal enough, nor long enough to significantly alter the overall situation.
The Romanians (let's start to call them Romanians, it is simpler that way) learned quickly to just dismantle all infrastructure (not a lot of it anyway) and just hide in the thick forests / majestic Carpathian Mountains out of the harm's way.
The periods between the invasions were never long enough to allow the formation of strong and stable political formations. And the Romanians did not want a state of their own, because they had one: the Roman Empire just across the Danube.
If the invaders moved on, the Romanians simply returned and rebuilt their homes. If some barbarians settled the deserted countryside, the Romanians would eventually always outbreed them, mix with them and finally assimilate them in the ever larger Romanian people. No one cared about genetics back then!
 
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1.II

Zagan

Donor
II. The Dark Ages

I know that this is not considered the proper term anymore, but for the Romanians the period 600-1300 was really dark.

Nothing changed until the final part of the 6th century, when the Romanians, both north and (after 610) south of the Danube were dealt a huge blow. A different kind of invader entered their lands. The Slavs.
There were two main differences between the Slavs and the previous invaders. The first is that there numbers were huge compared to all the other invaders and the secons is that having an agricultural society, they settled in the plains for good.
So, all the space inhabited by Romanians was settled, permanently, by a huge number of Slavs, both in Dacia and in the Balkan Peninsula. Thus, almost all Romanians lost almost all contact with the Roman Empire.
And to add insult to injury, some kind of a soft, hidden coup took place at the same time in Constantinopole. Greek replaced Latin as the official language of the Empire. Although still called the same, the Roman Empire turned into the Bizantine (Greek) Empire, alien now to Romanians and of no use to them. Since the Greeks called themselves Romans now, they wanted to differentiate between them and the Romanians, so they took a Slavic word and started to call the Romanians "Vlachs".
Some of the Romanians were displaced by the wave of Slavs and headed south towards Macedonia and Thrace and west towards the Illiricum and Pannonia. The Slavs invaded these areas anyway, although (except Pannonia) in less numbers.
Now, in this huge territory began in earnest a life and death ethnic struggle of assimilation between the Romanians and the Slavs. The Romanians had the advantage of sheer numbers, but the Slavs had the advantage of the political organization. Everywhere started to appear political entities small or large created and run mostly by a Slavic upper class and Slavic leaders. The whole church hierarchy was also controlled by the Slavs and the church language was Slavonic. The official alphabet was also the slavonic one. The Romanians who wanted political or economic power were assimilated into the Slavic elites and also many peasants were slavicized.
It is a miracle that the Romanians managed to survive and even thrive in these conditions.
The Romanians were thus in roughly 4 different situations:
1. Some were able to assimilate the Slavs in their midst and slowly start to create some Romanian proto-states after 1000-1100.
2. Some were caught in Slavic states such as Bulgaria, Serbia, Croatia or the Rus. Here the elites were slavicized, but some of the peasantry managed to remain Romanian.
3. Some got scattered in the Byzantine Empire (mostly Thracia, Macedonia, Thessaly and Epirus) where some were subject to hellenization.
4. The rest got as far as Dalmatia or Pannonia where they mixed with the local romanized populations.
As if the Slavs were not enough, in the 10th century the Magyars invaded Pannonia and from there, in the following centuries also western Dacia. The pattern repeated itself. The Romanian elites got magyarized in order to keep their priviliges and some peasants also followed suit.
There is very difficult to determine how many Romanians were there in the different countries in the region. And there is almost impossible to determine the actual ethnic make up of these states. Back then, no historian was interested in the ethnicity of the lower classes. The Romanian historiography claimes that in all Romanian lands, the Romanians made up an absolute majority up until the 18th century national revival, but there are no means to substantiate this claim.
 
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1.III

Zagan

Donor
III. The Middle Ages - Early Modern Period

There is not much to say about this period. It is mostly well-known and not disputed.
The fortunes of the Romanians turned worse as they got squashed between their more powerful neighbours - first the Byzantine Empire, the Slavic states, Hungary, Poland, the Tatars and later the Ottoman Empire, The Austrian Empire and the Russian Empire.
In the 18th century it seemed that the Romanians were completely doomed. They had no state of their own (except tiny Wallachia and Moldavia which comprised less than 10 percent of the Romanian population and were under a firm Ottoman yoke) and the Romanian territory was split between 3 of the mightiest empires in Europe.
Their only hope was their still very large population and the rather strange fact that the Romanian National Revival kickstarted a little earlier then the national revival of the other peoples. Maybe helped by the memory of Michael the Brave (who was better remembered than in OTL), the Romanians wherever they lived slowly acknowledged the fact that they were speaking the same language and started to feel as members of the same nation.
 
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1.IV

Zagan

Donor
IV. The 19th Century

In 1800 the Romanians were in the worst shape ever. It seemed that nothing could be done to get their fate to improve. However, as we know, the weakening of the Ottoman Empire (ongoing) and of the Russian Empire (after the Crimean War) gave the Romanians a breath of fresh air.
In 1859, (small) Moldavia and Wallachia united and in 1862 for the first time in history a state called Romania appeared on the European maps. In 1866 Romania got a prince from a foreign European dynasty, future King Carol I.
In the war of 1877-1878 against the Ottoman Empire, Romania got its Independence and Northern Dobrudja but had to endure two national humiliations: the loss of Southern Bessarabia to Russia and the creation of independent Serbia and autonomous Bulgaria on lands populated mainly by Romanians (at least by Romanian narrative).
This new Romanian Kingdom (1881) was boiling in nationalistic fever with (unofficial) irredentist claims against all its neighbours.
However, Romania was way too weak to act so the government was moderate and tried to keep the nationalists in check.
Trying to overcome its weakness, Romania started an ambitious program of industrialization and militarization under the umbrella of the Central Powers alliance (which included the much hated Austro-Hungarian Empire!)
The enormous agricultural and industrial output created a surplus which made the Romanian State very rich. The Romanian population was booming, both in Romania and abroad. Scientific research was encouraged and progress was visible in all areas.
However, nothing happened. Romania was simply waiting and buying its time. After all, everything was good. Its economy and population were growing quickly, its resouces were plentiful, literacy was growing, the relations with the diaspora were excelent (with the few exceptions of the war-mongers which wanted Romania to liberate them at once)
Romania was going to liberate the Romanians in the neighbouring countries. It just coudn't to that right now, that's all.
So, in 1900, the Romanians were in a much better shape and looking forward to a glorious future.
 
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1.V

Zagan

Donor
V. Ready to Strike

In 1907, Romania was like a predator ready to strike at the first sign of weakness. The only question was where.
In the east was the backward but huge Russian Empire, where an unknown number of millions of Romanians were heavily oppressed. Romania was clearly not yet ready to attack it yet.
In the west and north was the Austro-Hungarian Empire home of over 10 million Romanians. However it was allied with Germany and even with Romania itself (not that it mattered very much).
In the southwest Romania had a very short border with Serbia, way to short to possibly squeeze an invasion force through there.
And in the south it was Bulgaria, still an Ottoman vassal (at least in theory)
Neither Bulgaria, nor Serbia even recognized the existence of Romanians on their territories, much less the fact that they were an apreciable part of the population.
There were also many Romanians in northern Greece and in the European part of the Ottoman Empire, but Bulgaria was in the way.
So, for now Romania had still to wait. But the consensus was that the strike will be southwards, for there was not really any other alternative.

And now the POD:
Well, sort of... The 1907 uprising (a Russian plot) never took place. Of course, the Romanian peasantry had a wonderful situation so it had absolutely no incentive to revolt.
And the great Romanian army was growing in numbers and in strength by the day, ready to mobilize and be deployed in no time in any part of the country because of the modern and extended railroad and road network.

Next year, when the Bosnian crisis erupted, Romania was more than prepared. Only one hour after the Bulgarian Independence was proclaimed, the Romanian army crossed the Danube and the Dobrudjan border. The first Balkan War just started and nothing will be the same ever again. Romania was finally meeting its destiny!

The introduction is now over.
The real stuff will begin soon.
 
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1.VI

Zagan

Donor
VI. The Romanian People in 1907

In 1907, Romania was small (less than 10% of Romanians lived in Romania), quite rich (good economy, lots of natural resources including oil, decent GDP), had a large, educated, hard-working population (14 million inhabitants, almost all of them ethnic Romanians) and a large military (at least 1 million soldiers, large cavalry, good weapons and artilery, a decent navy).
And, more important, Romania was, for the time being at least, safe. It was allied with the Central Powers - Germania, Austria-Hungary and Italy and no one wanted anything from it, so it was in no immediate danger of being invaded.
So, the population of Romania should have been happy. After all they were rich and safe! But there was a problem which did not let them to enjoy their pleasant life. It was the fate of their fellow Romanians suffering in the neighbouring countries.

Russia
The Romanians in Russia (mainly Bessarabia and Little Russia) were suffering of abject poverty, illiteracy, lack of schools, churches (in their native language - everything was in Russian), modern infrastructure, in fact lack of everything taken for granted in a normal 20th century country.
Bessarabia was flooded with Russians who occupied all important positions in the society pushing the Romanian majority to the periphery of social life in less then a century since the 1812 theft of Bessarabia. The situation for the Romanians in Little Russia was less known, but certainly even worse.
All Romanian society wanted Bessarabia back, but the Romanian State did not push the issue because it did not want to anger the Russian Empire. The nationalists demanded huge Russian territories up to the Don river.

Austria-Hungary
Allied with Romania and a more European, liberal and progresist state, Austria-Hungary was a better place for Romanians than any other country (except Romania of course).
The Romanians were poorer than the Germans and Hungarians and had no political power, but were officially recognized as a nation, appeared in censuses (albeit their numbers greatly underestimated) and were allowed to have a national life with newspapers, schools and churches in Romanian. They had very good relations with Romania and a political party - Romanian National Party (Partidul Național Român). It did mainly campain for an end to the magyarization program and asked for equality between the Romanians and Magyars. Romania cautiously supported them. The nationalists wanted no less then the dissolution of Austria-Hungary and the annexation of all Transleithania, Bukowina, Galicia and even Lodomeria and Dalmatia to Romania.

Serbia
Even though they were anywhere between 30 and 60 percent of the population, the Serbian state did not acknowledge their existence at all and the Romanian language was forbidden.
Romania was diplomatically fighting for their official recognition and enfranchisement. The nationalists openly called for the outright annexation of all Serbia.

Bulgaria and Eastern Rumelia
De jure autonomous and distinct parts of the Ottoman Empire, de facto an united, quasi-independent country.
The Romanians (probably a plurality) were officially called Vlachs, counted as only 7% of the population and heavily oppressed.
Romania had no diplomatic relations with Bulgaria, considering it as an Ottoman province. Because of that, Romania insisted in protesting and campaining for the Romanian cause in Bulgaria with the Ottoman government, which was nevertheless powerless to act in Bulgaria.
The nationalists pressed for an immediate invasion and annexation of all Bulgaria.

Greece
The Romanians in Greece had no official recognition, were called Vlachs and considered to be some kind of Greeks. Some of them were content with the situation while others were agitating for more rights. Since Romania had no common border with Greece, it could do very little for them. The nationalists wanted to annex some northern Greek territories (especially Thessaly).

Ottoman Empire
Since 1905, the Romanians had official recognition as a millet (people). They had schools, churches and newspapers, all payed by the Romanian government. However, the poverty was still the most serious issue.
Romania pressed the Ottomans to recognize Romania as the official protector of all the Romanians in the Empire, position still denied. The Nationalists wanted to annex all the European part of the Ottoman Empire, including its capital, Constantinopole.

Other countries
There were small pockets of Romanians in Austria proper, German Silezia, Congress Poland and North-Eastern Italy. Romania wanted decent minority rights for these people. The nationalists were less concerned.
 
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