Romania Wank

[Drewbdu]

No problem.
POD is in 1907. Everything before is Hidden History.
This is the (flawed) premise of TTL.
ASB means: Alien intervention / Time travel / Fictional Universes etc, not implausible / low plausibility setup. Read the definition of ASB, please.

Actually ASB (when used on this forum) means: The TL is so implausible that it would require alien intervention to become plausible.

IMO if you look past the false premise of this TL and just start in 1907, the TL isn't ASB to me, just very unlikely to have happened.

 

[Zagan]

"Hidden History" makes absolutely no sense. If Julius Caeser wiped a different buttcheek than IOTL, all of life would be different. ASB means things that would NEED alien intervention to happen. And for millions of people to be exactly as they were IOTL except this time they're Romanian needs alien intervention to be able to happen. Your culture affects who you are. And that's just one outlook of this TL; the fact that the same nations with convergent borders are there is ridiculous, as is the idea that Romania could somehow conquer all that land.

Well, unlike you, I actually read the official definition of ASB on this site, not the jargon usage of some members.
You are very new here. Take your time to accomodate yourself here.

 

[Curt Jester]

I'd say it's a pretty sound ASB TL.

If all the hidden history stuff is somehow discounted, then it starts IOTL 1907. IOTL the Great Powers would not allow a super-mega-awesome Romania to take over the Balkans; heck, IOTL Romania would barely be able to beat Bulgaria, much less Bulgaria, Serbia, Albania, Bosnia, Croatia (did I forget any balkan states?) and the freakin' Russian Empire. They would be exhausted after the first war, and probably attacked soon after. And even if somehow they managed to win wars, no way GB or France would allow them to own that much land - it goes against a stable balance of power in Europe.

And if GB and France say no, Romania is dust.

 

[Zagan]

Actually ASB (when used on this forum) means: The TL is so implausible that it would require alien intervention to become plausible.

IMO if you look past the false premise of this TL and just start in 1907, the TL isn't ASB to me, just very unlikely to have happened.

Actually this is jargon, i.e. the way some members abuse and strech the concept of ASB TLs.
ASB = supernatural / preternatural intervention actually mentioned or implied in the TL, not TL so implausible (in someone's opinion) that supernatural intervention is (logically) deducted.
Please, read the FAQs. You can find them in the wiki.
Thank you for your decent comment (unlike other members which were not decent)

 

[Zagan]

I'd say it's a pretty sound ASB TL.

If all the hidden history stuff is somehow discounted, then it starts IOTL 1907. IOTL the Great Powers would not allow a super-mega-awesome Romania to take over the Balkans; heck, IOTL Romania would barely be able to beat Bulgaria, much less Bulgaria, Serbia, Albania, Bosnia, Croatia (did I forget any balkan states?) and the freakin' Russian Empire. They would be exhausted after the first war, and probably attacked soon after. And even if somehow they managed to win wars, no way GB or France would allow them to own that much land - it goes against a stable balance of power in Europe.

And if GB and France say no, Romania is dust.

Romania was part of the Entente like in OTL, thus allied with UK, France, Italy etc.
The Russian Empire was no more. The Russian Civil War raged instead there.
OTL, Romania conquered Bulgaria in a week in 1913. (OTL it retreated after a peace treaty was signed)
Albania did not exist yet (TTL and OTL). Neither did Croatia, nor Bosnia. (TTL and OTL)
Romania (TTL) was greatly helped by the ethnic Romanian minorities / pluralities in those areas / countries.

The "Balance of Power" thing is correct. However, they were war weary after a long and destructive World War I (like in OTL, they wanted to beat the Turkish Republic and Soviet Russia, but they finally gave up)

 

[Curt Jester]

Romania was part of the Entente like in OTL, thus allied with UK, France, Italy etc.
The Russian Empire was no more. The Russian Civil War raged instead there.
OTL, Romania conquered Bulgaria in a week in 1913. (OTL it retreated after a peace treaty was signed)
Albania did not exist yet (TTL and OTL). Neither did Croatia, nor Bosnia. (TTL and OTL)
Romania (TTL) was greatly helped by the ethnic Romanian minorities / pluralities in those areas / countries.

The "Balance of Power" thing is correct. However, they were war weary after a long and destructive World War I (like in OTL, they wanted to beat the Turkish Republic and Soviet Russia, but they fianlly gave up)

Ah, when I said Croatia, Bosnia, etc, I was referring to the people that inhabited that land, not the actual nations of today. They were Habsburg fiefs, which leads me to another point...

The Habsburgs would curb stomp Romania.

Even if Romania was allied with the Entente, they would not allowed to be able to gobble up the entire Balkans (including Serbia, another Entente member!)

All in all it reminds me of this... TL

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=58931

 

[Zagan]

Ah, when I said Croatia, Bosnia, etc, I was referring to the people that inhabited that land, not the actual nations of today. They were Habsburg fiefs, which leads me to another point...

The Habsburgs would curb stomp Romania.

Even if Romania was allied with the Entente, they would not allowed to be able to gobble up the entire Balkans (including Serbia, another Entente member!)

All in all it reminds me of this... TL

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=58931

Germany and Austria-Hungary did give Romania a hard beating, just short to total conquest (read the chapters). However they lost the war in the west (like OTL again)
Of course only Austria-Hungary (a bit smaller than Romania) could not beat Romania alone.
Serbia was not an Entente ally TTL because it did not exist anymore when WW1 started. (read the TL before commenting)
TTL WW1 started when Austria-Hungary attacked Romania. The fact that Romania was expanding in the Balkans was the cause of the war. Austria-Hungary was (rightfully so) worried that it will be next on the list. (lots of Romanians there too, more than OTL)

EDIT:
Wow! Even that TL was let to live! It was neither locked, nor deleted, nor even moved to ASB... Wow, again.

 

[Curt Jester]

Germany and Austria-Hungary did give Romania a hard beating, just short to total conquest (read the chapters). However they lost the war in the west (like OTL again)
Serbia was not an Entente ally TTL because it did not exist anymore when WW1 started. (read the TL before commenting)
TTL WW1 started when Austria-Hungary attacked Romania.

I read the TL, I was just discounting the totally impossible parts (aka the "hidden history" and the "all balkan countries are secretly ROMANIAN but everything else is OTL!" parts) in order to make discussion possible.

EDIT: But no one read it, and it was heavily criticized, and the guy was banned in the end. GG.

 

[Zagan]

I read the TL, I was just discounting the totally impossible parts (aka the "hidden history" and the "all balkan countries are secretly ROMANIAN but everything else is OTL!" parts) in order to make discussion possible.

EDIT: But no one read it, and it was heavily criticized, and the guy was banned in the end. GG.

... He was kicked (for a weak) because he lost his temper and yelled insults at everybody, not because the little story was incoherent and anachronistic.

TTL has 6848 views...

 

[MorningDew]

That tl should have been moved to asb, I don't know why it was not. Maybe nobody asked it to or the mods just didn't read it.

He is saying what i said nicely, that this is a pretty solid ASB tl, so if you get a mod to move this to asb all your problems (with me at least) should be solved.

 

[Zagan]

Wow! Tenth page already!
Who would have imagined my poor TL will get so much interest.

Thanks to all the polite members who read and commented TTL. (And certainly no thanks to the impolite ones)

 

[Zagan]

Discussion Ended and POLL Considered as Closed


Taking into account almost all the (mostly) negative comments and the results of this poll, I decided:

1. TTL is implausible. On a scale between 0 (impossiblity) and 100 (certainty) it is probably around 10.
2. This does not really matter very much. Many published works of AH are even less plausible yet make an extremely pleasant reading.
3. TTL is certainly not ASB. Those who consider it ASB are simply confusing the lack of realism and plausibility with ASB (Alien intervention / Magic / Fantasy Worlds / Alternate Universes / Time travel / etc)
4. As a corolary, it should NOT be moved to the ASB subforum.
By the way, I must clearly state that I like many stories in the ASB subforum and I do not consider it inferior in any way.
5. Some of my statements have been proved false. I am glad that I learned something.
6. TTL has some errors. I shall atempt to correct them if possible without changing the essensials of the TL.
7. The biggest issue is that: More Romanians would have had some impact, changing history somehow before 1907. Different possible solutions are still being considered for Version 2.


Possible solutions considered for Version 2 (more ideas welcome; criticism is always better recieved if actual solutions are offered)

1. Keep it Non-ASB (but increase plausibility)
1.1. Move the POD from 1907 to the Antiquity or the Middle Ages. Significantly change most subsequent history. Negative: unrecognizable World.
1.2. Keep the POD in 1907. Keep the number of Romanians as low as in OTL. Negative: a lesser Greater Romania is thus achievable OR it becomes a multi-ethnic, pluri-national state or confederation.

2. Switch to ASB (actual ASB, not what some of you incorrectly call ASB)
Negative: Some people (not me) do not like ASB stories / consider them somehow inferior.
2.1. ASB puts an enormous "butterfly net" over the Romanians. Negative: it only offers a very streched explanation and keeps TTL exactly as is, making a rewrite (version 2) pointless.
2.2. In 190x, ASB makes millions of people all around Romania "feel" Romanian. (example: those who have at least a Dacian / Thracian or Romanian / Aromanian ancestor or whatever)
Most of TTL remains unchanged (besides some polishing and the inevitable initial chaos / bewilderment). Negative: ??
2.3. No extra Romanians, but ASB somehow helps Romania conquer all around. (weapons from the future or an ISOT or something). Negative: empire / dictatorship / apartheid / something where 15% of the population rules over the 85% conquered nations.


Plans for the future
1. Finish this in the same style. (and keep it in this subforum)
Since I already decided to make a Version 2, there is no need to modify this one. And I will not stop now when it is >80% completed. ETA: soon.
2. Choose a solution (see above) and write Version 2. (in Before 1900, After 1900 or ASB, as appropriate based on the solution chosen). ETA: several weeks to months.
3. Write one or more derivate TLs. Example: 7 May 1945 TTL Romania "ISOT" to 7 May 1945 OTL World. ETA: as soon as possible.


And finally, again: I am sorry I have disappointed you. It is my first TL.
I wrote about my plans in one of the first posts and no one told me back then that it as a bad idea.
When the avalanche of negative comments begun, I had already invested a lot of time, research and effort into it to just throw everything at the dust bin.

 

[lukedalton]

2. This does not really matter very much. Many published works of AH are even less plausible yet make an extremely pleasant reading.

Sure...but this forum cater specifically for alternate history and demand precision and work, a certain standard that it's above the general published fiction work, at least in this subforum, the writer subforum it's more lax with rules or more prone to accept more extreme idea, basically the only rule is that the work is entertaining.

1.2. Keep the POD in 1907. Keep the number of Romanians as low as in OTL. Negative: a lesser Greater Romania is thus achievable OR it becomes a multi-ethnic, pluri-national state or confederation.

in the second case it's a Jugoslaviawank...and it much more plausible, there were plan to include Bulgaria in Jugoslavia after WWI and both Paris and London favored a Danubian Confederation as a mean to check Italy, Hungary and Germany.
If you choose a lesser Greater Romania...it's ok, no problem and good luck, still remember that action had consequence and action in a world war had a wider range of consequence.

And finally, again: I am sorry I have disappointed you. It is my first TL.
I wrote about my plans in one of the first posts and no one told me back then that it as a bad idea.
When the avalanche of negative comments begun, I had already invested a lot of time, research and effort into it to just throw everything at the dust bin.

You don't have disappointed anybody with this TL, it's your first and it was also your first post and i don't know really how much you have lurked here.
Said that a little suggestion for the future, if you wrote a tl here expect to be criticized but also helped and to cite my cousin that is try to working as a screenwriter/director: be sure of your work but not be afraid to accept suggestion/critique by others.
Sure some will be harsh or even feel rude...or at least you perceive in that manner, but if you see other thread you will notice that here there were people with enough knowledge of specific argument to back their claim so before answer at least think at what they are saying to you.

To end this post with just my useless opinion: well while this is your TL and frankly you can do with her everything you want, posting her there mean accepting critique by knowledged people (or at least someone who think it is).

 

[HIM Dogson]

If I may offer a suggestion, have Romania start winning in the Middle Ages. On paper, the Austrian Empire or PLC seems implausible, but it was much easier for small ethnicities to dominate other ethnicities before the rise of nationalism, and empire building was much easier back when blatant wars of aggression were common. Our history had a Hapsburgwank, a Britwank, a Japanwank, a Turkwank, and a Mongolwank, among others, but the foundations for all of these were laid before 1900. That's my advice, anyway.

 

[MapleTekh]

My thoughts on this TL: This is written well, much better than I could do. The thing is, this is very unlikely to happen. Just my two cents.

 

[HunterX]

Just write the TL you want and put it in the correct subforum. IE "What if the alien space bats replaced much of the population of Europe with Romanians in 1907?"

 

[La Rouge Beret]

And finally, again: I am sorry I have disappointed you. It is my first TL.
I wrote about my plans in one of the first posts and no one told me back then that it as a bad idea.
When the avalanche of negative comments begun, I had already invested a lot of time, research and effort into it to just throw everything at the dust bin.

Considering this is your first TL and that this TL has generated ten pages of discussion is something to be proud of!

Now not sure if you have looked at this thread, but it deals with ways to improve the Romanian military's performance in WW 2. Some excellent suggestions there.

In saying that having read briefly over your TL and taking into consideration the changes that have already been included in draft 1, I would suggest that a more appropriate forum for Version II is Pre 1900. Now the reason for that is with the sheer number of changes that you have created for your Greater Romania requires a point of divergence prior to 1900. Keeping that in mind those changes will result in further changes from OTL as the TL progresses and excellent TL to explore would be Look to the West (now up to volume V) by Thande.

There was also a suggestion around the late 19th century of having General William Sherman become the King of Bulgaria, so if you are going to have a pre 1900 POD have him accept but as the King of Romania. That would certainly cast the butterflies fairly wide.

Anyway you are more than welcome to take my advice on board or not, but don't be dissuaded and keep writing.

 

[Zagan]

Thank you all for your comments, advice and encouragement.

I will thoroughly consider these as well as a lot of other aspects before deciding on a definite future plan.

Regardless of the direction I will pursue, I will let you know in advance in order to get some additional input. (since I have lots of spare time due to the summer vacation of my students, this will be sooner rather than later)

 

[Salvador79]

I know, I know, it is a flawed assumption; some things had to be different.
Let's pretend for the sake of this story that: Some things happened differently but they were not important enough to get mentioned in history books.

I am sorry, I just do not know how I can correct this, since it is a central premise of TTL. (like in Draka series for example)

I will finish TTL soon and I will start a rewrite / revisit which will be hopefully better in terms of cause-effect stuff.

Looking very much forward to that revised / rewritten timeline!

I´ve thought a lot about how that flaw could be eliminated while the basic outlook of your post-1907 timeline could be kept the way you like it.
What you want is many millions more Orthodox Christians in Central Eastern Europe speaking a Romance language, perhaps having at some point in time being subjects of princes like the Valachian and Moldavian ones who highlighted this unique combination - and a "Romanian" national movement gripping them in the 19th century.
Perhaps there`s a less world-changing way to do this by, say, having Southern Slavs in Illyria / Pannonia / Dalmatia assimilate linguistically to a much greater degree to the provincial Latin still spoken in the region. This way, Serbia for example could bascially understand itself as "Romanian", couldn`t it? Note that "Romanian" was how the ERE´s inhabitants called themselves, too. At some moment in the Late Middle Ages, when the Ottomans are at the gates, you´d have three (or maybe even more) Vlachic principalities bickering among themselves and fighting against the Ottomans. Come then 19th century and Greece`s reemergence as a nation state, they could want to be united, but fail to achieve it. With a Romanian Kingdom limited to Tara Romaneasca and Moldavia, and "Serbia" being forced into some sort of stillborn "Balkan Confederacy" with Bulgarians, Albanians and others, 1907 could look a bit like your TL´s intended 1907, albeit considerably shrunk. "Serbs" speaking to a greater degree a Romance language will still create tons of butterflies, but maybe less than a larger Dacian ethnos.

I, personally, would be quite interested in seeing that Dacia-wank timeline develop throughout the first millennium CE, though... ;-)

 

[Zagan]

Looking very much forward to that revised / rewritten timeline!

I´ve thought a lot about how that flaw could be eliminated while the basic outlook of your post-1907 timeline could be kept the way you like it.
What you want is many millions more Orthodox Christians in Central Eastern Europe speaking a Romance language, perhaps having at some point in time being subjects of princes like the Valachian and Moldavian ones who highlighted this unique combination - and a "Romanian" national movement gripping them in the 19th century.
Perhaps there`s a less world-changing way to do this by, say, having Southern Slavs in Illyria / Pannonia / Dalmatia assimilate linguistically to a much greater degree to the provincial Latin still spoken in the region. This way, Serbia for example could bascially understand itself as "Romanian", couldn`t it? Note that "Romanian" was how the ERE´s inhabitants called themselves, too. At some moment in the Late Middle Ages, when the Ottomans are at the gates, you´d have three (or maybe even more) Vlachic principalities bickering among themselves and fighting against the Ottomans. Come then 19th century and Greece`s reemergence as a nation state, they could want to be united, but fail to achieve it. With a Romanian Kingdom limited to Tara Romaneasca and Moldavia, and "Serbia" being forced into some sort of stillborn "Balkan Confederacy" with Bulgarians, Albanians and others, 1907 could look a bit like your TL´s intended 1907, albeit considerably shrunk. "Serbs" speaking to a greater degree a Romance language will still create tons of butterflies, but maybe less than a larger Dacian ethnos.

I, personally, would be quite interested in seeing that Dacia-wank timeline develop throughout the first millennium CE, though... ;-)

I will see what could be done.
I am still ruminating over all these posiblilities.

Edit: 200 posts, hurrah!