Reich Turbulent (formerly named Der Rote Kampfflieger) - An Axis Victory TL
- Thread starter BlackDragon98
- Start date
So how long can the Belgians and the French hold onto the Rhineland and the Ruhr? With Germans fleeing the region, the British are probably already having nightmares of seeing everything up to the Rhine becoming French, something just as bad as the Flanders coastline becoming German.
Will we actually see a French collapse thanks to going Insolvent trying to hold Germany down? OTL they had problems by 1935 how much worse will it be itl?
Im interested at the future Borders Hitler wants with French and the Belgians the have not made themself friends inside of germany.
Im interested at the future Borders Hitler wants with French and the Belgians the have not made themself friends inside of germany.
Hitler and the NSDAP could pressure the German government to stop paying reparations to France and Belgium.
Because "as occupiers, they committed war crimes in their occupation zones, which is a break of the peace treaty. Therefore, Germany is free from her own obligations".
It's an obvious pretext but it IS a pretext.
Because "as occupiers, they committed war crimes in their occupation zones, which is a break of the peace treaty. Therefore, Germany is free from her own obligations".
It's an obvious pretext but it IS a pretext.
I doubt the migration will get anywhere near the point where the Rhineland ceases to have a majority German population, but Silesia is a lot farther from Britain, so any industry that moves there is going to be less vulnerable to bombing raids. I assumed that was going to be the long-term significance of the migration.
Nightmares don't have to be realistic, much like how before 1939, the Anglo-French leadership were so afraid of war they basically caved in to all of Hitler's demands. In reality, if they'd gone to war, they'd have been to Berlin in a year.
BlackDragon98
Banned
Yes, you are correct here.
Rhineland and the Ruhr will still have a majority German population, but quite a few industries and their workforce are moving from the occupied areas to Silesia.
After all, who wants their products seized as war reparations?
And then there are the Germans that left Posen after it became Polish.
Germany is getting rather crowded and that will have a bearing on the future.
I'll do a minor update explaining the population changes, casualties, etc. of Germany after WW1 and the turmoils of the early 1920s.
BlackDragon98
Banned
The Weimar government will receive plenty of hate from Germans in the next couple years.
Hitler and the NSDAP is still rising, more popular than ever.
I do recall something about inflation of the Papiermark during this era...
BlackDragon98
Banned
After Silesia, they will try and hold on as long as they can. They're trying to squeeze out as much reparation payments as they can, but it's not working.
The occupation is costing them millions, and they're receiving almost nothing.
Only thing they've managed to do is unite Germany against them.
BlackDragon98
Banned
No collapse (at least not yet), but definitely an assload of debt.
They started the occupation earlier ITTL, right after WW1 in 1918, because the German High Seas fleet scuttled themselves in Kiel and France wanted those ships.
Earlier occupation means it will cost more, although troops numbers were not too high in the start, but it gradually increased as German resistance, both passive and active, mounted.
And because Germany is unable to pay anything back for a variety of reasons, the occupation costs basically become French debt.
Lots of debt means lots of paying, which means less money for other things.
And opposition in France against the occupation is mounting as well.
No parent wants their kid to die in a foreign land just because the politicians said so.
Wow, I can see why people see Hitler as admirable TTL. He really put his money where his mouth is, and seems actually competent in military matters
The Numbers Game
BlackDragon98
Banned
As promised here are my guestimations of the population changes, casualties, occupation cost, etc.
Population Changes in Germany (1918-1921)
Migration from Eastern German lands that were incorporated in the Second Polish Republic to Germany:
1918: 33,456
1919: 10,598
1920: 32,087
1921: 278,487 (1)
Migration from German Silesia to the Second Polish Republic:
1918: 32,471
1919: 57,093
1920: 86,982
1921: 398,487 (2)
Migration from the French and Belgian Occupation Zones in the Rhineland and Ruhr to Silesia:
1918: 9,936
1919: 31,702
1920: 37,864
1921: 286,473 (3)
Casualties in the "Massacre on the Rhine" in Bonn on May 3rd, 1921:
German dead: 314
German wounded: 1109
French dead: 50
French wounded: 278
Occupation Costs for the Rhineland and Ruhr:
France: 1.5 million Francs/day (4)
Belgium: 0.40 million Belgian Francs/day
Notes:
1. Anti-German sentiment in Poland after the German victory in Silesia caused this sudden increase.
2. Likewise, anti-Polish sentiment in Silesia caused this sudden increase.
3. Crackdown on resistance and seizure of goods by the French authorities caused this sudden increase.
4. OTL cost for 1 day of occupation of the Ruhr was 0.75 million Francs based on the NY Times source. I added another 0.75 million Francs for the Rhineland occupation.
Numbers are partly from OTL numbers, partly from my guestimations and calculations. Feel free to criticize them if you feel they are inaccurate.
Questions, comments, and suggestions are always welcome!
-Black Dragon
Sources:
www.nytimes.com
en.wikipedia.org
en.wikipedia.org
en.wikipedia.org
Population Changes in Germany (1918-1921)
Migration from Eastern German lands that were incorporated in the Second Polish Republic to Germany:
1918: 33,456
1919: 10,598
1920: 32,087
1921: 278,487 (1)
Migration from German Silesia to the Second Polish Republic:
1918: 32,471
1919: 57,093
1920: 86,982
1921: 398,487 (2)
Migration from the French and Belgian Occupation Zones in the Rhineland and Ruhr to Silesia:
1918: 9,936
1919: 31,702
1920: 37,864
1921: 286,473 (3)
Casualties in the "Massacre on the Rhine" in Bonn on May 3rd, 1921:
German dead: 314
German wounded: 1109
French dead: 50
French wounded: 278
Occupation Costs for the Rhineland and Ruhr:
France: 1.5 million Francs/day (4)
Belgium: 0.40 million Belgian Francs/day
Notes:
1. Anti-German sentiment in Poland after the German victory in Silesia caused this sudden increase.
2. Likewise, anti-Polish sentiment in Silesia caused this sudden increase.
3. Crackdown on resistance and seizure of goods by the French authorities caused this sudden increase.
4. OTL cost for 1 day of occupation of the Ruhr was 0.75 million Francs based on the NY Times source. I added another 0.75 million Francs for the Rhineland occupation.
Numbers are partly from OTL numbers, partly from my guestimations and calculations. Feel free to criticize them if you feel they are inaccurate.
Questions, comments, and suggestions are always welcome!
-Black Dragon
Sources:
45,000,000 FRANCS 2 MONTHS' RUHR COST; Poincare Asks for Appropriation, Showing Expenses of About $60,000 a Day. REPARATION BOARD CALLED France Will Submit Her Mora- torium Project and Declare Germany in Default. 45,000,000 FRANCS 2 MONTHS' RUHR COST
Poincare asks Chamber of Deputies for appropriation for 2 mos' occupation
1921 Upper Silesia plebiscite - Wikipedia
Landflucht - Wikipedia
Province of Posen - Wikipedia
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BlackDragon98
Banned
ITTL he was a Feldwebel by war's end.
He was posted to regimental and later divisional HQ, where his artistic talents meant he was mostly working on maps as well as painting landscapes and other paintings for officers.
In regimental and divisional HQ he overheard and occasionally participated in conversation about strategy, tactics, and logistics.
Good way to learn about stuff is be around professional in that trade.
Silesia was the NSDAP's first move. ITTL Hitler saw the Poles as greedy Slavs stealing German land after the war, which is why he called together an expedition to hold Silesia.
The sabotage and disruption campaign was more of a continuation of the Great War to him; continued warfare against their wartime enemy France. Just not using the same tactics.
Hope this answers your questions! 🙃
Despite how monstrously evil Hitler was, he had a decent grasp of strategy, likely from his experience as a soldier in WWI. Some of his decisions helped benefit the Wehrmacht's performance in WWII. In the invasion of Russia he had correct strategic thinking in focusing the invasion towards Southern Russia near the Caucasus where its oil fields and refineries were. This was the closest and largest source of oil available to the Axis. Of course Halder changed the invasion plan focusing towards Moscow in imitation of the French Campaign. By the time German high command found out it was too late. Germany was critically low on fuel and had to partially demechanize its infantry as early as the invasion of France with various equipment being towed by horses. One of his main motivations for invading Russia was to gain access to its oil as the war had seen Germany cut off from the large imports from the US and the Persian Gulf. And synthetic oil and Romanian oil production was insufficient to meet the demands of the German War machine. Of course people like Halder tried to save their reputation by whitewashing themselves of all responsibility in terms of their leadership and command.
I'm really intrigued by this timeline so far and I'm definitely watching it. I'm wondering how fascism will be shaped by this events here since it looks like Hitler will be coming to power earlier, and France is practically playing into the hands of German Revanchism. This timeline is both fascinating and scary.
Will Hungary be able to try and retake lands here? Will Italy side with Hitler here, or will it support an independent Austria like it almost did in otl?
What divergences do you have in mind for the Spanish Civil War?
Lets say Hitler gets to power by 1930 on way or another. That would mean better industrialisation for round 2. More trained Soldiers and Officers more and better equipment, more and longer Autobahn and Train tracks build, Will we see thanks to Richthoffen better Planes and Jet fighters even earlier? (OTL the earliest i could find was the He178 that flew on 27 August 1939)
BlackDragon98
Banned
Sorry about the long delay.
Being forced to stay inside has sapped me of much of my creative juices.
Thus, writing this next chapter take me some time.
-Black Dragon
Being forced to stay inside has sapped me of much of my creative juices.
Thus, writing this next chapter take me some time.
-Black Dragon
Is the SA more disciplined in this?Could Hitler have attracted more former officers of the imperial army into his militia and atleast have a mildly disciplined army seen in a better light then otl's thug like SA?Could the SA be turned into an elite volunteer fighting force and intergrated with the rest of the wehrmacht in the future?
What about hitler writing a better political manifesto earlier before 1923?The beer hall putsch doesn't seem as likely to happen this time
What about hitler writing a better political manifesto earlier before 1923?The beer hall putsch doesn't seem as likely to happen this time
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BlackDragon98
Banned
Yes, to a certain degree. The SA have already fought in Silesia and now they are in the middle of a underground war against the French and Belgian occupation forces.
Discipline is definitely better than the OTL SA, among other things.
Freikorps Oberland already merged with the SA after the Silesian Expedition. Other Freikorps units may merge into the SA when Hitler and the NSDAP get more power.
OTL many Freikorps Oberland became Nazis later anyway, so ITTL they just become Nazis earlier.
The Panzergraf and many other Silesian former Imperial army officers have already become sympathetic/aligned with the Nazis.
Those who are not in the Reichwehr have already joined the NSDAP.
As well, Organization Consul has merged with the NSDAP already after Hitler declared OP Elbe.
This will be discussed in further detail in the upcoming chapter.
Rohm and Co. will not be pleased that there is competition between him and the former Imperial army officers.
Guess what will happen once Hitler takes power.
You know if goering never gets that morphine addiction he would be alot more efficient,he was after all the man who made the gestapo and in this timeline the red baron is still alive so wouldn't goering, one of the men who helped bring otl nazi germany to power and orchestrated some of it's most horrible things be more dangerous without the morphine