Patton in Korea/MacArthur in the White House

[Lascaris]

Bravo! Tour de force in AH. (I give De Gaulle three months before the alt OAS, CIA or MI6 catches up with him. - Charles Calthorpe/Paul Duggan, you are needed!)

Yes we can see the scene. OAS/CIA/MI6 catch up with De Gaulle. Charles walks over the wreckage of the failed attempts not even bothering to change pace. Then SDECE and the barbouzes get funny...

 

[ric350]

Great story, BNC! Well done!

ric350

 

[theg*ddam*hoi2fan]

Great end to a great TL!!!

Bravo! Tour de force in AH. (I give De Gaulle three months before the alt OAS, CIA or MI6 catches up with him. - Charles Calthorpe/Paul Duggan, you are needed!)

Yes we can see the scene. OAS/CIA/MI6 catch up with De Gaulle. Charles walks over the wreckage of the failed attempts not even bothering to change pace. Then SDECE and the barbouzes get funny...

I’m with Lascaris. Given De Gaulle’s OTL record, plus the CIA and OAS’s general incompetence, if anything gets tried the only result I see is Devil’s Island getting some new faces. Along maybe with France making this public to the UN.

Mac's chickens coming home to roost was long due, but the ironic thing is the full ramifications of Egypt won't be felt for a long time, and then only in comparison to OTL. I get a strong sense that the non-aligned world is starting to think something along the lines of "new boss(es), same as the old boss" about the US and USSR; that they're just a spiffier new version of the old European colonial regimes. Definitely leaves a lot more room for a non-aligned movement to develop, especially once Asia and Latin America start to take off economically. Domestically there will be blowback too; once the press gets in and GI's keep coming home in body bags from a messy postwar occupation some folks are going to wonder why the hell their country carpet bombed a few hundred thousand people to death over a European canal. Others will dig in their heels and double down on victory at any cost. Not an unfamiliar pattern to anyone paying attention to US politics over the past 50 years. Despite the death toll, I think the world may be in a better place overall compared to OTL; the cold war is not nearly as confrontational, the US intelligence apparatus is less wildly unrestrained in overthrowing foreign governments, and the stage is being set for a faster return to a more multi-polar world. Fantastic work overall, and I'd love to see it continued.

I agree entirely. Multi-polar world, with France becoming a major player from an early stage.

 

[Sam R.]

Et ton nom est ?
Bond. James Bond.

 

[galileo-034]

Yes we can see the scene. OAS/CIA/MI6 catch up with De Gaulle. Charles walks over the wreckage of the failed attempts not even bothering to change pace. Then SDECE and the barbouzes get funny...

I’m with Lascaris. Given De Gaulle’s OTL record, plus the CIA and OAS’s general incompetence, if anything gets tried the only result I see is Devil’s Island getting some new faces. Along maybe with France making this public to the UN.

De Gaulle and Tito would have something in common to laugh about.

 

[galileo-034]

Et ton nom est ?
Bond. James Bond.

 

[Alpha-King98760]

Man, was fantastic! I can’t wait to see what else you make on this site.

 

[bguy]

It was a really great story. Awesome job!

 

[Vabasion]

I feel like Beria Soviet Union would be an interesting TL after this.

 

[BrockSampson]

Well done and congratulations on reaching the end of the TL. It’s been a long time coming. So BNC, do you have a sense of relief now or is this a bittersweet finale?

 

[Xenophonte]

Well, not exactly the most flattering thing for the British's pride:

Before he finished, Churchill paused, as if he did not want to utter the sad words that followed, for fear of disappointing his friend, and perhaps himself. “Anthony, you are the leader now. I trust you will do what is right for the country. But remember that our best days are behind us. The Empire, much as I regret it, is leaving us, and without it, what will be our place in the world? Alone, we will look like a relic next to the Americans and Russians. With the United States beside us, we may yet stand proudly as an ally.”

Though, would seem that Churchill, would have intended, help, to give his opinion, though he did it, in one of the most harsh possible ways to offer a very necessary reality check to his successor.
Also, it seems me very uncharacteristic of him. Cause, I don't think that Churchill, even if forced for the geopolitical realities, would accept resign his nation international standing and position, and even less that would advise to his successor, that to keep their current position, to become, ITTL, in what would seem, (IMO) on mere American 'sidekicks'.

Perhaps, if his successor continued his efforts to rebuild Egypt, that country might see peace. But across the world…
“It is like Plato once said. Only the dead have seen the end of war.”

Would seems that Egypt would become, for the US, ITTL Vietnam, but given the geographic differences, I'd expect that here would be almost exclusively urban low-intensity warfare.
Though, that I have few doubts that it would become the main Egyptian cities in TTL versions of Fallujah. But aside of of the aforementioned probable consequences, here the would be Egyptian insurgents would be faced with their isolation both geographic and political due to lack of trusted supply sources to keep fighting against the Western occupation and their (so perceived) puppet regime.
Given that, I'd guess that their only source of weapons and ammo would be from the captured or stolen to the new Egyptian Army and/or to their Western 'assessors'.

 

[Rajveer Naha]

Exactly the Egyptian insurgents won't have cover anywhere and the flat terrain and no forests at all dosen't help and would be out in the open other than the cities. In the worst case I see it devolving into a situation like Iraq now with occasional attacks. Securing or rather sweeping the cities is probably a east part and then occasional attack may continue. But without any major external backer, Libya is a western ally, Sudan would be afraid, Israel no chance, no neighbour seems particularly intent on helping them and everyone around knows the price of annoying the superpowers, they would fade away slowly. Actually a democratic government may very well develop but how long will it last is anyone's guess. I don't see it becoming a Vietnam.

I am disappointed with the author ending the TL instead of continuing with MacArthur as the military governor of Egypt, why is Naguib required so soon.😐

 

[King-Emperor]

Wonderful timeline! Truly one of the best on this sight. One thing I did wonder about was whether MacArthur would order the exhumation of the American war dead of WW1 and WW2 from France, just as LBJ infamously threatened to do with DeGaulle in 1966 after he expelled the American troops. It would certainly send a message.

 

[BrockSampson]

Exactly the Egyptian insurgents won't have cover anywhere and the flat terrain and no forests at all dosen't help and would be out in the open other than the cities. In the worst case I see it devolving into a situation like Iraq now with occasional attacks. Securing or rather sweeping the cities is probably a east part and then occasional attack may continue. But without any major external backer, Libya is a western ally, Sudan would be afraid, Israel no chance, no neighbour seems particularly intent on helping them and everyone around knows the price of annoying the superpowers, they would fade away slowly. Actually a democratic government may very well develop but how long will it last is anyone's guess. I don't see it becoming a Vietnam.

Agreed that Egypt would be more like Diet Iraq from OTL. The Egyptians would be a lot more isolated than Vietnam or Iraq were which complicates any insurgency.

I do wonder if Canadian PM Pearson would go along with the UK or if he’d be trying to distance Canada from the conflict as much as he comfortably could. He probably isn’t winning a Nobel Peace Prize TTL.

With Israel in control of the Sinai for longer and largely Egypt neutered, this could butterfly the Six Day War. Another conflict would likely arise between Israel and her neighbors but it would be much less dire and likely see Syria and Jordan getting hammered much harder.

I’m sure one of Mac’s last things he did in office was commission a statue of Patton somewhere in DC.

 

[Seandineen]

Could someone put a 20 year earlier, Sadat and make friends with Israel? Perhaps the trucual states could make an attempt.

 

[BiteNibbleChomp]

@Kennedy Forever @PickledFish @ric350 @theg*ddam*hoi2fan @Alpha-King98760 @bguy
Thanks everyone! I've really been amazed and humbled by the amount of support everyone has had for this TL, really means a lot!

Don't you know our de Gaulle was bulletproof?

Can we have a world map of this Alt1956?

My map making skills aren't great, but if someone could be so good as to make one, here's the changes from OTL 1956:
- Unified Germany
- Unified Korea
- Unified Vietnam
- Guinea is independent from France
- Cyprus is part of Greece
- Iran under Soviet occupation
- Egypt occupied by Israel east of Suez, US/UK west of Suez
- Vietnam occupies parts of Cambodia and Laos (click on the image to enlarge)

A hubris as bad as Khrushchev's historical. It is rare that an allohistory does hubris. It is rarer that it does it well. MacArthur here isn't choosing to be an idiot. He is doomed to be this man that he is. He resists at times, but turns towards his fate and death is the result.

For eastern bloc analysts, De Gaulle may well look like Tito does to bourgeois analysts of our time. Cairo certainly looks like Budapest. Done with more air power. And less respect for civillians. It is almost as if Manilla was inside Doug always.

Manila was always in Mac. His career began there and a part of him never left...
It's funny, I've been trying to decide for months which OTL President TTL's Mac resembles the most, and TBH I think it might be Nixon (kinda fitting with Nixon as AG ): successful in practically everything he did, he had greatness in him, but the same things that made him great ultimately undid him at the end...

Well, with Germany reunified and neutral, and with France out of NATO command structures, it may look in America like MacArthur is the president who lost Europe. Italy, Spain, the UK and the Low Countries are just good as beachheads.
Even though Iran may be messy to them, the Soviets are probably delighted over what's happening in Europe. I wonder how this affects the power games within the Kremlin.

The President who "lost" Europe, or the one who "escaped" it? I can certainly see TTL's conservatives almost celebrating America's disentanglement from the Old Continent (and Truman, if he needs any more rubbish piled on his legacy, as the guy that wanted America to have troops there forever - a policy that just led to the Berlin Crisis and "one day, probably war") We of course know how OTL turned out, but TTL's people would have good reason to assume the worst.

Mac's chickens coming home to roost was long due, but the ironic thing is the full ramifications of Egypt won't be felt for a long time, and then only in comparison to OTL. I get a strong sense that the non-aligned world is starting to think something along the lines of "new boss(es), same as the old boss" about the US and USSR; that they're just a spiffier new version of the old European colonial regimes. Definitely leaves a lot more room for a non-aligned movement to develop, especially once Asia and Latin America start to take off economically. Domestically there will be blowback too; once the press gets in and GI's keep coming home in body bags from a messy postwar occupation some folks are going to wonder why the hell their country carpet bombed a few hundred thousand people to death over a European canal. Others will dig in their heels and double down on victory at any cost. Not an unfamiliar pattern to anyone paying attention to US politics over the past 50 years. Despite the death toll, I think the world may be in a better place overall compared to OTL; the cold war is not nearly as confrontational, the US intelligence apparatus is less wildly unrestrained in overthrowing foreign governments, and the stage is being set for a faster return to a more multi-polar world. Fantastic work overall, and I'd love to see it continued.

France being a potential NAM leader definitely gives them a lot more influence than say Egypt or Indonesia of OTL, certainly opens the field up a bit

I won't absolutely rule out the possibility of one day taking this world past 1956 (honestly the more time I spend on it, the more interesting it has all become!), but for now I think I'll be taking a nice, long break. We're coming close to two years since I first thought of the scenario, I think that's enough for now

- BNC

 

[Kennedy Forever]

Your welcome @BiteNibbleChomp

 

[BiteNibbleChomp]

I feel like Beria Soviet Union would be an interesting TL after this.

That sounds like a nightmare!

So BNC, do you have a sense of relief now or is this a bittersweet finale?

TBH both. When I first started this I only envisioned it as being a project for a month or two, certainly nothing like the epic it has become. Every part of the process has been amazing, but it is time to move on

Though, would seem that Churchill, would have intended, help, to give his opinion, though he did it, in one of the most harsh possible ways to offer a very necessary reality check to his successor.
Also, it seems me very uncharacteristic of him. Cause, I don't think that Churchill, even if forced for the geopolitical realities, would accept resign his nation international standing and position, and even less that would advise to his successor, that to keep their current position, to become, ITTL, in what would seem, (IMO) on mere American 'sidekicks'.

I've always been given to understand that Churchill was fairly open about the UK's future as a world power being tied to its alliance with the US?
Behind the scenes, he would definitely be encouraging Eden to make sure Britain has a voice, but Eden at that point definitely needed to be told "don't do the stupid thing De Gaulle just did" and that's the scene that encapsulates the 'end of WW2's encore' feel I've been going for

Would seems that Egypt would become, for the US, ITTL Vietnam, but given the geographic differences, I'd expect that here would be almost exclusively urban low-intensity warfare.
Though, that I have few doubts that it would become the main Egyptian cities in TTL versions of Fallujah. But aside of of the aforementioned probable consequences, here the would be Egyptian insurgents would be faced with their isolation both geographic and political due to lack of trusted supply sources to keep fighting against the Western occupation and their (so perceived) puppet regime.
Given that, I'd guess that their only source of weapons and ammo would be from the captured or stolen to the new Egyptian Army and/or to their Western 'assessors'.

Exactly the Egyptian insurgents won't have cover anywhere and the flat terrain and no forests at all dosen't help and would be out in the open other than the cities. In the worst case I see it devolving into a situation like Iraq now with occasional attacks. Securing or rather sweeping the cities is probably a east part and then occasional attack may continue. But without any major external backer, Libya is a western ally, Sudan would be afraid, Israel no chance, no neighbour seems particularly intent on helping them and everyone around knows the price of annoying the superpowers, they would fade away slowly. Actually a democratic government may very well develop but how long will it last is anyone's guess. I don't see it becoming a Vietnam.

I am disappointed with the author ending the TL instead of continuing with MacArthur as the military governor of Egypt, why is Naguib required so soon.😐

There's a lot of room for messy occupation before we get to something as bad as Vietnam was... I imagine Egypt falls somewhere there.

Mac installing himself as military governor was just never going to happen - one of the things he felt most important about running an occupation (both Philippines '44-45 and Japan '45-51) was reinstating civilian authority as soon as possible, that's something he credits with his success. In the case of the Philippines, he had Osmena reinstated mere hours after landing on Leyte - that wasn't exactly practical in Egypt considering Naguib was in Cairo at the time, but installing him as soon as Amer was finished with would have been the next best option.

Wonderful timeline! Truly one of the best on this sight. One thing I did wonder about was whether MacArthur would order the exhumation of the American war dead of WW1 and WW2 from France, just as LBJ infamously threatened to do with DeGaulle in 1966 after he expelled the American troops. It would certainly send a message.

My inclination is to say that he wouldn't. Unlike LBJ, Mac had known personally some of the WW1 dead, and he was always quite sentimental about the places where he had been and served. His reaction to De Gaulle is much more one of disbelief and sadness than one of anger.

Agreed that Egypt would be more like Diet Iraq from OTL. The Egyptians would be a lot more isolated than Vietnam or Iraq were which complicates any insurgency.

I do wonder if Canadian PM Pearson would go along with the UK or if he’d be trying to distance Canada from the conflict as much as he comfortably could. He probably isn’t winning a Nobel Peace Prize TTL.

With Israel in control of the Sinai for longer and largely Egypt neutered, this could butterfly the Six Day War. Another conflict would likely arise between Israel and her neighbors but it would be much less dire and likely see Syria and Jordan getting hammered much harder.

I’m sure one of Mac’s last things he did in office was commission a statue of Patton somewhere in DC.

"Diet Iraq". Not a phrase I ever thought I'd read but one I very much approve of

Canada (as well as the rest of the Commonwealth) tried to stay out once it became clear that Mac, Churchill and Eden were going to invade Egypt (and not just the Suez area) if Nasser didn't back down. A couple of days after Malenkov does Czechoslovakia-68 in Iran, it's terrible press and those countries don't have much economic reason to be so insistent about Suez. Maybe Menzies still involves himself somehow (though Australia is too far away to send troops as quickly as Mac wanted them), I have trouble seeing it from anyone else.

I like the idea of the Patton statue

Could someone put a 20 year earlier, Sadat and make friends with Israel? Perhaps the trucual states could make an attempt.

Right after Israel helped the Allies butcher Egypt? The Arabs aren't going to be in the mood for mending fences. This is a lot worse than the thrashing they received in OTL 1967, and that pretty quickly led to a new war.
Ten, twenty years down the line, once heads have cooled, there could be an attempt to make amends. But it won't be anytime soon.

- BNC

 

[Xenophonte]

I've always been given to understand that Churchill was fairly open about the UK's future as a world power being tied to its alliance with the US?

Yeah, but at least that I'd have miss interpreted your post, the quoted paragraph, hinted to accept/resign to a Warsaw pact like alliance rather than a NATO like, for best protect the British Empire overseas interests.
Also, the Churchill political advice to his successor, seems to be based on the presumption that the Mac Arthur doctrine, would be followed and continued to be applied by the next US administrations, on their foreign policy.

 

[marathag]

Would seems that Egypt would become, for the US, ITTL Vietnam, but given the geographic differences, I'd expect that here would be almost exclusively urban low-intensity warfare.

like there was in German cities after the War?

guerillas need an external supply. Where would it be coming from in this ATL?
Egypt hasn't a friendly superpower sitting across the Border, like North Vietnam, with Ports off limits to bombing or mining until 1972.
Brits and US are sitting in this Egypts Ports, with Israel on one side, and Libya on the other, with deserts that is rough to smuggle tons of military supplies across

Would Sudan be willing to host rebels so soon after the US and UK crushed Egypt? I think not. They don't want to end up on Mac's shit list